22 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylrae]

This is a thread about a project to update NWN from D&D 3.0 to the Pathfinder ruleset.

I know a few people IRL who are interested in this either for the pathfinder aspect of the game modding aspect, and I was wondering if there was any interest here. I've started converting it already (though admittedly, not in a well planned fashion, I've just been picking the odd thing, saying "have I converted this yet?" and then proceeding to do updates).

For anyone who doesn't play PnP games and has no idea what Pathfinder is:
NWN came out based on beta versions of the D&D 3.0 ruleset. D&D 3.5 was created a couple years later, and tidied up some of the problematic areas of 3.0.
Pathfinder is a revised version of that revision (By Paizo, the company that made Dragon Magazine before 4e), that treats all of D&D 3.x as a big playtest. They also released their rules in beta as a playtest for a year as well. It's a combination of streamlining and rebalancing of the D&D 3.x stuff.
They then started releasing their own new content - the big releases are all open playtest for things like character classes and feats. Pathfinder is known for amazing quality modules, and it was recently announced that they're officially outselling D&D4e.

In our tabletop games, we've all switched over to pathfinder, sometimes with D&D 3.5 splats allowed, other times strictly saying just Paizo stuff. I'd love to start using NWN with pathfinder as well. Hence this project.

So: Goals
 - Updated classes
 - Updated Races
 - Updated Monsters
 - Updated Items
 - Updated Skills
 - Updated Feats
 - Updated Spells
 - Updated Graphics (We'll see what we can fit in, it may largely be a separate project once the rest is done).

Some things will be small tweaks, or require no adjustment. Others will be total rewrites or completely new additions.

For distribution I'm thinking a key/bif combo like nwn 1.70, as well as a hak version. That way people who dont want to use it all the time won't have to, and those who want to apply it to everything, can just treat it as a big patch.

I'd love to use it with the NWN Renewed modified client whenever that gets released, but we may have to implement some of it using workarounds.

Is there any interest in this here?

Modifié par Sylrae, 07 juillet 2011 - 06:05 .

[Shadooow]

Definitely, sounds very good wish I could help you with that but Im atm very busy with my own project. And I don't think that anyone did it before in NWN, at least I haven't heard about that.

[Estelindis]

Like Shadooow, I have too much on my plate at the minute to help out with such a project, but I would definitely use it. (I play Pathfinder tabletop and I think the system is much more balanced between classes and from level to level compared with 3.0 or 3.5.)

[omen_shepperd]

I have a great deal of interest in this project, i may know little of pathfinder but what i have heard interests me. if i can help in any way i will, though my skills are limited.

[Sylrae]

Well its good to hear there is interest.

It's a rather PRC-esque project, in that its a comprehensive set of changes and will involve working around many of the hardcoded areas of NWN (or editing the executable).

I had started on it when I made this post, but recently started backpedaling a bit back into planning. I know what I want to accomplish, I'm just not certain what the best way to accomplish it is.

I'm thinking of starting with a PRC Lite. I'd use the engine from the PRC, but strip out all of the new Race and class content, and start working in the Pathfinder content instead. My main reasons for this are that they have scripted engines to replace many parts of bioware's hardcoded engine, which would allow the implementation of new caster classes, and new combat feats.

I'm looking for scripters, some people who can do 2da modding, people to do creature and Item creation in the toolset, and eventually, maybe some modelers to do new monster graphics and whatnot.

Anyone who is familiar to how the PRC works would be helpful too, if they could explain the technicals of how they did some things.

And if anyone wants more information about pathfinder without having to go buy the book, check out http://www.d20pfsrd.com/.

[Alex Warren]

I'm not an expert, but I think I could explain how some of PRC systems work

[Sylrae]

Great!
I'm particularly interested in how they changed combat and spells. I've been reading through inc_combat, and I'm still baffled at how they turned off bioware's combat engine and added in their own.

[Sylrae]

So, Alex. Interested in helping?

[Sylrae]

So I've been starting from the prc versions of things, and disabling the prc stuff I'm not using, so first thing I did was disable all the new PRC classes. I want to use the PRC Engine but not necessarily the PRC Content. I've also been debating whether to straight up remove the prc stuff im not using or leave it in so if people want to use both they just have to go through the list reenabling things. for now its just disabled, a final decision can be made later.

I figured I'd start with something widesweeping and pervasive: Skills.
I'm trying revising the skill list to match the pathfinder list as much as possible.

This meant adding a whole bunch of new skills as well.
Goal: All skills are bought at 1-1 cost, and the list of skills is changed to match the pathfinder list. When I made condensed skill lists (IE Acrobatics = Balance, Jump, Tumble) I made it a new skill, and made the old skills unbuyable. The idea I'm going for is I'll write scripts to give a status effect bonus to balance, jump, and tumble that's equal to the number of ranks in acrobatics. I'm going to have to figure out a way to work around the +12 maximums, cause this will go up to +23, not including epic levels.
I also removed Taunt and Discipline as selectable, since discipline will essentially be used to store a script calculated CMD, and Taunt is going to be a subfunction of bluff.

I'm going to test it out and see how it treats the unselectable skills, then I'm going to start with the scripting.

[Alex Warren]

Sylrae wrote...

Great!
I'm particularly interested in how they changed combat and spells. I've been reading through inc_combat, and I'm still baffled at how they turned off bioware's combat engine and added in their own.

As far as I konw scripted combat doesn't turn off bioware's combat engine. PRC functions use some complicated calculations to get every combat variable (number of attacks, attack bonus, damage etc) and deal damage just like spells (with ApplyEffectToObject()).

Some PRC feats (smites, ToB maneuvers) simply use PerformAttack() or PerformAttackRound() functions. But there are also passive feats like Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting. Those are hooked to module HB script and when PC is in combat HB is calling combat functions to emulate extra attacks.

I wish I could write more, but I'm not very familiar with this system.

Now about spells - you should know that every NWN spellscript was altered to use PRC functions. 
Almost all Bioware functions used in spells have their PRC counterpart (ie. PRCGetCasterLevel(), PRCGetSpellTargetObject() etc). 
 This allowed to add classes that increase caster level or totally new casting classes, new feats (like sudden/divine matamagic, mastery of element), new itemproperties (metamagic, DC) and much more.

[Sylrae]

So I'm writing a Skill Script. Essentially it goes through the skills that have been removed, and calculates what their rank should be from the skills that have *not* been removed, then applies a skill bonus effect. (which I'll make invisible later).

At the moment I'm not including the implementation of Pathfinder class skills (if its a class skill and you have one rank in it, it gets a +3 bonus), just because it would be a fairly large change to make in terms of implementation (I'd have to deal with the fact that at level 1 in nwn you get x4 skills, and the max rank is already level+3. I'd have to eliminate that somehow, so for now the class skill bonuses will wait, and you keep the x4 at level 1). It's on the to-do list though.

I'm realizing just how rusty I am with NWScript though.

Modifié par Sylrae, 19 juillet 2011 - 11:35 .

[WebShaman]

This has piqued my interest! Unfortunately, my plate is more than full, but I will be watching this.

I am working on open-faced helms, beards, pipes, etc at the moment.

[Failed.Bard]

Sylrae wrote...

So I'm writing a Skill Script. Essentially it goes through the skills that have been removed, and calculates what their rank should be from the skills that have *not* been removed, then applies a skill bonus effect. (which I'll make invisible later).

At the moment I'm not including the implementation of Pathfinder class skills (if its a class skill and you have one rank in it, it gets a +3 bonus), just because it would be a fairly large change to make in terms of implementation (I'd have to deal with the fact that at level 1 in nwn you get x4 skills, and the max rank is already level+3. I'd have to eliminate that somehow, so for now the class skill bonuses will wait, and you keep the x4 at level 1). It's on the to-do list though.

I'm realizing just how rusty I am with NWScript though.

  With NWNX you can work around this, but only in a practical way if the characters will be levelled up to start at level 2.
  NWNX_Funcs has a script to allow the permanent setting of all skills to 0, then you can determine how many skill points they should have, based on the pathfinder rules, and set their saved skill points to that amount.

  Working around the level + 3 limit, however, I don't know how to do, besides checking the skill ranks in it at level up and removing the excess ranks, to be added into the skill points saved total again.

[Sylrae]

Yeah. Not sure I can use NWNX for this so much. it's not planned as a server so much as a clientside+serverside patch. I think I'll have to write it to work both with AND without NWNX. ideally, if youre on a server with nwnx, it should use it, but if youre in singleplayer, then it'll have to use a scripted solution unless I can manage to modify character creation with hooking into the exe like a few other people have done. For now I'm just doing the scripted and 2da'ed stuff.

I have quite a bit on my plate at the moment too WebShaman. it's looking like itll be likely monday the 8th or so by the time I get around to working on it more.

Oh well, I'll do what I can and keep plugging away I guess.

[Sandrax]

If you're willing to skimp on the hard coded stuff, you can make your own kind of community expansion like the CEP people did for pathfinder. The client+server stuff is a lot of work... without a source code release (like that will ever happen) you basically get to debug asm until your eyeballs fall out.

I'd sooner start a non-profit fund and hang out the collection plate to buy the licensing interests away from WoC/Atari/Bioware[EA] and then open source it. Only problem is finding someone with enough credibility among everyone to do it and not just keep the cash. Even then it is questionable how much it takes for them to part with their interests in the NWN IP. Even if not, then, would make a hell of a scam

I don't know much about this pathfinder. What kind of engine level changes are you looking at?

[alexander-b]

I want this. a lot. I don't know anything about hak packs or nwn modding, but sounds like it's time to learn! nwn is my favourite game of all time, and I'd absolutely love to be able to make my pnp characters into nwn characters.

[KriskrasDK]

Sylrae are you still working on this? If so maybe you should hook up with these people: http://social.biowar...-7398311-1.html

[Sylrae]

I hit some serious technical snags and some university difficulties, which is why this idea died.

I may try to attempt this at some point, but unfortunately not at this instant.

Modifié par Sylrae, 21 avril 2012 - 07:50 .

[Shadooow]

Sylrae wrote...

I hit some serious technical snags and some university difficulties, which is why this idea died.

I may try to attempt this at some point, but unfortunately not at this instant.

I never understood the advantages of Pathfinder against DnD 3.5.

I looked into the pathfinder and all I could see was too many new special abilities or posibilities that cannot be implemented in NWN1 at all. Except that its nasty copy of the 3.5 SRD.

[henesua]

The point of pathfinder is that it avoids copyright infringement. [edit] And satisfies demand for d20 after D&D 4th ed was released.[/edit]

Modifié par henesua, 23 avril 2012 - 02:08 .

[Shadooow]

henesua wrote...

The point of pathfinder is that it avoids copyright infringement. [edit] And satisfies demand for d20 after D&D 4th ed was released.[/edit]

Ok, but we - nwn modders - are strict by the NWN copyright from Bioware right? And also, we do not make profit from our persistent worlds and if we add something that is restricted by WotC like Planescape or all those new prestige classess from their books, nobody can pursue or punish us. Or am I mistaken? At any rate I understand the second point, 4th ed is fail

[henesua]

I wasn't making a point for pathfinder in NWN. Just explaining why it has a following and what it is all about.

[Leurnid]

Pathfinder uses the 3.5/d20 open license, so it is no more or less a copyright issue for NWN than anything else. Hasbro has terminated all future Open License for d20 though, so any future commercial d20 development must be done under the auspice of grandfathered products such as Pathfinder.

The NWN community, being a 'not for profit' bunch of individuals, is still able to develop for d20 without repercussions, especially because NWN is an official Hasbro product.