158 réponses à ce sujet

[Hello There]

I really hope that DA3 does not have its main story revolving around a mage/templar war. This would really be a downer, i hated the political story of DA3, it was so unrealistic and boring, every mage you met was an evil blood mage, and every templar was a cruel overlord. Not to mention the story has been done to death in DA2 as well as DAO. We've already had it, twice.

Dragon Age is not about Templars and Mages, i don't want it again. DA2 was a terrible game with a terrible story, but the game couldn't even have the decency to wrap up its own plot. The whole game was a prologue, and now where stuck with a mage/templar war thats going to spill out on to DA3. Honestly I would rather have the Blight anyday over mage/Templar war for DA3. You know why? Because the Blight is an epic story, one where you overcome and vanquish a powerful and terrible evil force. Like Mass Effect, where Shepherd has to save the Galaxy by defeating the Reapers against impossible odds. Those plots give you an epic sort of feeling and really invest you into the characters and setting. DA2 had none of this epic feel, it was just boring and ordinary. The save the World stories work, its why games like DA Origins, KotOR, Mass Effect are so good, as well as movies like Lord of the Rings, Star Wars (originals) and other greats. And it doesn't have to be generic, they can use their imagination.

The Mage/Templar story is good, but not great enough to cover the whole game's story, let alone 2 games. DAO did this nicely with its sub quest in the main quest. No more need for it. I would be happy enough if Bioware just retconned DA2's ending so that Kirkwall was an isolated case. It shouldnt be hard for Bioware to do, they seem pretty adept at retconning things, like having Anders alive when he died at the battle of Vigils keep, or having Zevran alive when my Warden killed him, or Lelianna being retconed to be alive (for others, not myself, i didn't kill her) and countless others.

I hope DA3 is not about a Mage war, they need something epic, a save the world story, and just forget that DA2 ever happened.

EDIT:

There is now a poll Here, please vote so we can get a full opinion of what people want.

Modifié par Hello There, 10 juillet 2011 - 04:35 .

[alex90c]

POSSIBLE SPOILERS AHEAD READ AT OWN RISK

















































Considering all the build-up in DA2, if DA3 weren't about the Mage-Templar conflict that would just be absurd. Yes there are sub-stories like the Qunari, Ferelden-Orlais, perhaps even White Divine - Black Divine but Mages-Templars will almost certainly be the main issue.

Also, the whole "mages are insane" business was something done purposely by Bioware to make siding with them throughout the game more morally grey rather than DA:O where everyone pretty much sided with the mages by default; I think Gaider admitted that they probably went over the top in DA2, but the fundamental fact of the matter is that the whole crazy business had an actual justification behind it, not just "lets give the player more stuff to kill" or "hurhurhur winding up our fanbase is funny".

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Mages/Templars is just a signpost for exploring different groups of people and how their beliefs and situations cause conflict.

The idea is that rather than have a narrative revolve around defeating an Ancient Evil™, you have one revolve around the interaction of different societies and characters where the player is given free reign to navigate and ultimately, have some influence over these groups to the benefit or detriment to the people around you and to the world at large.

As far as RPGs go, it's pretty much a type of narrative that Fallout has been known for since it's inception. "War. War never changes." Or "My idea is to explore more of the world and more of the ethics of a post-nuclear society, not to make a better plasma gun."

Morrowind and Daggerfall especially tangled with these elements, too.

I would say the Witcher handles politically charged stories excellently as well, but their factions aren't ideological signposts like what BioWare is attempting to do. They are (for the most part) self interested amoral entities with unique and strong individuals. Which could be a better way to go about it, now that I think on it.

Now, whether that story becomes interesting, varied, complex and engaging enough for players is one of execution, not premise.

But I don't think we'll see Mage/Templar in it's current form for a future game. What would be more accurate is probably the Chantry trying to deal with insurrection.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 07 juillet 2011 - 01:35 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

Just have the Mage/Templar war spill into other conflicts, with countries using it as an excuse to wage war. It could become the Thedas equivalent of the Thirty Years' War - with magic.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 07 juillet 2011 - 02:30 .

[TheHawkeWhoFlies]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Just have the Mage/Templar war spill into other conflicts, with countries use it as an excuse to wage war. It could become the Thedas equivalent of the Thirty Years' War - with magic.

That would be awesome 

[CrimsonZephyr]

I could see Ferelden at least being open to normalizing relations with the mages. I mean, the Chantry higher-ups are as Orlesian as you can get, and Uldred's rebellion pretty much wiped out any rebel mages who thought he had the right idea.

[Hello There]

mrcrusty wrote...

Mages/Templars is just a signpost for exploring different groups of people and how their beliefs and situations cause conflict.

The idea is that rather than have a narrative revolve around defeating an Ancient Evil™, you have one revolve around the interaction of different societies and characters where the player is given free reign to navigate and ultimately, have some influence over these groups to the benefit or detriment to the people around you and to the world at large.

As far as RPGs go, it's pretty much a type of narrative that Fallout has been known for since it's inception. "War. War never changes." Or "My idea is to explore more of the world and more of the ethics of a post-nuclear society, not to make a better plasma gun."

Morrowind and Daggerfall especially tangled with these elements, too.

I would say the Witcher handles politically charged stories excellently as well, but their factions aren't ideological signposts like what BioWare is attempting to do. They are (for the most part) self interested amoral entities with unique and strong individuals. Which could be a better way to go about it, now that I think on it.

Now, whether that story becomes interesting, varied, complex and engaging enough for players is one of execution, not premise.

But I don't think we'll see Mage/Templar in it's current form for a future game. What would be more accurate is probably the Chantry trying to deal with insurrection.

But at the end of the game, the conflict is still about mages/templers, which is very uninspiring and doesn't compare to previous Bioware games. You can still explore other aspects of society if the central conflict is an ancient evil (it doesn't even have to be an ancient evil, it could be an invading neighboring nation). I just dont want Mages/ templars again, or anything to do with them because its been done twice now, as well as other problems like:

Hyperbole. All the Mages are unrealistically evil and bloodmage, and all the Templars are cruel and overlording. The Orsino moment was a major "WTF! FAIL", as well as Meredith, and that time where you save that mage from the caves in the first act, and then you find out shes a bloodmage later on anyway. This is unrealist, and broke any sense of believability for me. Everyone in Kirkwall is idiotic and overdramatic.

Templars not noticing your a mage. MAJOR FAIL, considoring the central plot revolves around mages, yet templars don't notice your wearing robes and have a staff on your back. Totally breaks the immersion. And it was unexplained. DAO got away with this because you were a Grey Warden.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

That's a matter of bad writing and horrible story/gameplay segregation, not the concept of Templar/Mage being a bad one.

[xkg]

Hello There wrote...
Templars not noticing your a mage. MAJOR FAIL, considoring the central plot revolves around mages, yet templars don't notice your wearing robes and have a staff on your back. Totally breaks the immersion. And it was unexplained. DAO got away with this because you were a Grey Warden.

Yep. There is no excuse for that, really. This is ridiculous beyond any reason.

This is actual screenshot from the game - in the middle of the fight. One of the huge "WTH IS THIS" moments.

Modifié par xkg, 07 juillet 2011 - 03:14 .

[alex90c]

I'm still stunned why Bioware would make templars and mages the main theme of Dragon Age 2 and yet make being a mage a complete non-issue for the player. Yes you need to segregate lore and gameplay to an extent otherwise you'd just spend the game in the Gallows, but it's screenshots like the above which really make me think "what the hell were they thinking?".

[Skaden]

I feel that the whole templars not acknowledging a mage player issue further underscores the value of player origins and how DA2 made a big mistake in not including them. While obviously the game can't play out entirely differently if you're a mage, an origin story specific to magic might have offerred at least some explanation. I imagine the main reason most templars don't react to the player being a mage is a result of the story being almost exactly the same for all classes.

[Hello There]

mrcrusty wrote...

That's a matter of bad writing and horrible story/gameplay segregation, not the concept of Templar/Mage being a bad one.

Well if they can't get it right, better they go back to something they can do. I rather like the idea of a neighboring nation going to war. Maybe the Anderfels go to war, and the Grey Wardens play a part? Either way, thats far more interesting than the done to death Mages/Templars (done in DAO, done in DA2...).

Its been done twice, no more please, but DA2 didn't finish its clusterf***ed story.

Also, how do you suppose they fix the issue of playing as a mage and having consequence, or having a mage/templar story that isn't out of proportion by having every mage a bloodmage, without making it black and white? (Im not being condencending, i would like to know a sensible way around those).

[Hello There]

Skaden wrote...

I feel that the whole templars not acknowledging a mage player issue further underscores the value of player origins and how DA2 made a big mistake in not including them. While obviously the game can't play out entirely differently if you're a mage, an origin story specific to magic might have offerred at least some explanation. I imagine the main reason most templars don't react to the player being a mage is a result of the story being almost exactly the same for all classes.

??

Explain. How would Origin stories make a difference?

[Skaden]

With origin stories, the game could openly acknowledge that you are a magic user from the beginning and possibly offer at least some plausible excuse as to why templars do not react to you. In other words more variety within the story depending on what class you are; this could be better accomplished with distinct origins because at least at the beginning of the game players will experience the game diffferently based on variables such as if they can use magic or not. The only other alternative I see would be if most of the conversations played out entirely differently if you're a mage which doesn't seem plausible or practical. Sorry if im not making much sense but im very tired at the moment.

[erynnar]

I agree OP, the mage/templar plot is my least favorite of the three story-lines they presented us with in DA2 (and in this case DAO). But I fear we are stuck with it.

I wish they had done more with the Architect. That could have made a very good sequel instead of presenting him in an expansion. The Flemeth Morrigan thing...again, could have made the third in the series. I would love to see more on what I suspect were dwarves that used magic. Or the Qunari. Oh well.

[Skaden]

I'd definately like to see more Flemeth and Qunari, and im dying to see what happened to Morrigan.

[CrimsonZephyr]

The problem with the mage/templar story is that in a cast of complete monsters, extremists, and fools, you have no one to get behind. The audience becomes apathetic, and that should never happen in an RPG, because the player effectively becomes a spectator, watching this group of utterly unlikable people kill each other. Also, the role of the player needs to be more proactive, instead of reactive. It seems like crises happened around Hawke and he/she responded to them. There was no chance for Hawke to actively seek out big problems in Kirkwall and fix them.

[erynnar]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

The problem with the mage/templar story is that in a cast of complete monsters, extremists, and fools, you have no one to get behind. The audience becomes apathetic, and that should never happen in an RPG, because the player effectively becomes a spectator, watching this group of utterly unlikable people kill each other. Also, the role of the player needs to be more proactive, instead of reactive. It seems like crises happened around Hawke and he/she responded to them. There was no chance for Hawke to actively seek out big problems in Kirkwall and fix them.

This^ I might have liked the story line better if I had a group to get behind and I had the opportunity to change things.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Example: have an apostate group that actually followed mage laws better than the Circle, making it unclear whether being under Chantry authority was making things better or worse. The Mage Underground was hinted to be that, but we barely learn anything about them. Making every other mage a complete monster doesn't make the Templar position compelling if it is equally bad. Also, more development into Tevinter, please. classifying the only mage-run civilization as running on pure evil is bad writing for a series that prides itself on nuance. And if they are equally bad, create your own faction, culling the good from each. But alas, the railroading...

[The Baconer]

Hello There wrote...
Dragon Age is not about Templars and Mages, i don't want it again.

What is Dragon Age about?

[CrimsonZephyr]

The Baconer wrote...

Hello There wrote...
Dragon Age is not about Templars and Mages, i don't want it again.

What is Dragon Age about?

About a place called Thedas in a time period called the Dragon Age. It could be about anything within that setting, really. So yes, it is about Mages and Templars, but not totally.

[astrallite]

xkg wrote...

They could have stated in the lore that Templars really don't care about mages; except when they see the CNN camera (aka cutscene) in which case they feel the need to do their job.

And the part where they (and every merchant and begger) is immune to collatoral damage can be explained as Hawke and his enemies (which are really paid actors) are doing a film shoot with fake pyrotechnics and then releasing it on the big LCD screen in the market square to discourage other mobsters.

Modifié par astrallite, 07 juillet 2011 - 08:10 .

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

mrcrusty wrote...
I would say the Witcher handles politically charged stories excellently as well, but their factions aren't ideological signposts like what BioWare is attempting to do. They are (for the most part) self interested amoral entities with unique and strong individuals.

I think that's the thing - it's not necessarily about whether or not Dragon Age includes politics, persecution, etc, its about whether the way those story elements play out is effective and plausible in a pseudo-medieval setting. Based on what I've played, I honestly think the Dragon Age team should stick to the epic good vs. evil battle and leave the politics to CDPR.

[CrimsonZephyr]

The problem with sticking grey morality in a story about good vs evil is that subplots eventually are reduced to "your issues with each other, no matter how damaging or in need of rectification, need to be shelved because we face a greater evil."

[BeckShort]

You really think what we need is another save the world story? That's been done to death, IMO.