158 réponses à ce sujet

[JaegerBane]

Xayoz wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

Why?

I simply enjoy politics.Also, playing part in relations and conflicts between nations/races/ideologies make much more of an epic story than simply fighting some chaotic force of evil, bent on conquest/destruction.
It also gives more gratification in seeing how your actions change the wold with variety of outcomes, where as a typical heroic epic tends to always sum up as 'bad guys where defeated and the day was saved'.

In theory, yes, the above is true. As Zephyr has pointed out though, None of this actually happens. Your actions don't change the world. At all. Virtually everything the Hawke gets involved with would have come to pass if he'd never even left Lothering.

I can understand how politics in games can lead to interesting gameplay. I don't necessarily agree that it makes 'more of an epic story', as generally speaking, dithering in negotiations and trying to make people agree is simply never going to have the same scope as saving the world from an ancient evil (indeed, in DA:O the whole political aspect was simply one aspect of the greater story.... rather than simply being the 'story'), but nonetheless, I can see how it could work. The issue here, however, is that DA2's story is only 'politcal' in so far as you spend most of the time doing chores and very little time accomplishing anything of worth. I can't really understand how you'd think that would be anything but boring.

This is a common fallacy I hear on here. The idea that a story is somehow good simply by virtue of not being a 'save the world' story. It patently isn't. The story actually needs to go somewhere, regardless of it's type, and I don't think DA2 should be lauded purely for not being similar to DA:O in that regard.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 09 juillet 2011 - 05:16 .

[Hello There]

I created a poll to see peoples opinions on what they would like the main story of DA3 to be about.

Poll Here.

[Denthris]

This will continue spoliers, so be warned.


Both the Grey Warden and the Hero of Kirkwall have gone missing. The Seeker is looking for the Hero to help fix things. I think that DA3, is going to contain both. Mage/Templars, have always been a massive conflict even in DA:Origins.... The Grey Wardens almost flaunting their ability to recruit Blood Mages to battle the Dark Spawn on numerous times. That would only add the the Mage/Templar conflict.

The few Grey Wardens you bump into, hint that something is going on within the Wardens that is vitally important, and hints are left throughout all of DA that something else is going on. So I think that DA3, will be about both. The entire point of the Awakening expansion, is to leave room for massive conflicts with Dark Spawn, without their being the Blight.

But you also have alot of other political situations being stirred up. A Major city in the Free Marches, was nearly taken over by the Quinarri. The fallout of that is yet to be seen. No DA 2 was not a save the world kinda of story. Simply because DA2 was only really HALF of a story. DA2 created the "Hero of Kirkwall", the way the story was told, the narritve of the story, the ending all hint to the idea that their is more to this story.

As far as stories go, in the land, DA2's story will have more world changing effects, than DA: Origins. Simply put, anyone could of stopped the Blight. True, Ferelden could of gotten stomped, but you had Grey Wardens in other countries, would could of raised an army, and moved in while the Dark Spawn were still munching on the bodies in Denerim. DA: Origins .. is a save Ferelden story. Its just one chapter of Grey Wardens in one part of the world, doing what they are supposed to do. If they failed, their would of been others who would of steps into the role.

[Realmzmaster]

The poll results appear to indicate that there is a split with almost equal amounts for each possibility.This begs the question if Bioware picks one of these possibilities will that decision upset the other two-thirds or will it depend on how well the story is executed.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Perhaps the Mage / Templar supporters are split themselves between those who genuinely thought the story was good writing and those who disliked it but just wanted to see it through to the end?

[KLUME777]

Xayoz wrote...

I for once, would be hugely disappointed if we didn't get to continue the 'mage vs templar' story in the games to come.
In fact, I would probably drop the series then and there.
The mage lore is the one thing that drew me to Dragon Age in the first place and being able to further influence the fate of mages is the one expectation I have for this series.

The fact that, story-wise, DA2 was more about politics that 'saving the world' was a rather positive thing in my eyes as well.

If they had a different main foucus, it wouldn't mean they would just completely ignore Mages vs Templars. It could still tie into the main story as an integral part, ie. you need to solve the conflict and unite the mages and templars against a greater threat.

[CrimsonZephyr]

I'd accept a "unite against a common threat" type of ending only if it didn't come about as "please shelve your entirely legitimate grievances against each other, we need people to kill this other thing." The issues have to be resolved, not just shoved under the rug.

[erynnar]

Let's face it, we're going to wind up with a save the world scenario again. DA2 was an intermission to this. The world is on fire and only the Warden and the Champion can put it out. This amuses me. For all the "we hate the save the world stories," well get ready, because we're all going to have one again.

[CrimsonZephyr]

If that's the case, please show us some nuanced mages, not simple chaotic evil enemies that fast rope onto the streets of Kirkwall to battle a guy they have no hope of killing.

[richleroow]

When i started playing DA2 as a mage i was sort of expecting there to be like a Baldur's gate 2 feel to it, You know when you play a mage you would get attacked if you used magic within the city. But i suppose you wouldn't be able to pay your way to using magic in Krikwall. Or maybe you should have had to do that i don't know. it just sorta felt silly when you where in front of Cullen and he was all like:
What are you doing Hawke?
Hawke: Casting fireballs dude!
Cullen: Cool dude!!

[CrimsonZephyr]

Cullen...isn't the sharpest tool in the shed.

[JaegerBane]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Cullen...isn't the sharpest tool in the shed.

That's a bit of an understatement. He's the biggest doofus in Dragon Age after Jowan.

[Hello There]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

I'd accept a "unite against a common threat" type of ending only if it didn't come about as "please shelve your entirely legitimate grievances against each other, we need people to kill this other thing." The issues have to be resolved, not just shoved under the rug.

Just because the issue wouldn't be the main focus, doesn't mean it doesn't have to be shoved under the rug.

Also, would you rather shoot fireballs with a staff while a templar asks you if youve seen any mages lately?

[Hello There]

We need more votes on the poll so we can see a clear picture of what people want.

[alex90c]

erynnar wrote...

Let's face it, we're going to wind up with a save the world scenario again. DA2 was an intermission to this. The world is on fire and only the Warden and the Champion can put it out. This amuses me. For all the "we hate the save the world stories," well get ready, because we're all going to have one again.

Haha, good point.

[Pasquale1234]

Uzzy wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

BeckShort wrote...

You really think what we need is another save the world story? That's been done to death, IMO.

It's less "we need another save-the-world story" and more "the DA2 writing team is clearly better at telling save the world stories than they are telling more nuanced stories, and should stick to their strengths."

Sweet Mephisto, this. Bioware are amazing at the 'save the world' epic. Nuanced stories? Not so much, as evidenced by DA2.

I'm hoping that DA3 doesn't focus on Mages vs Templars, mainly as that issue was a lot more interesting before it broke out into open warfare, but also to prove the idea that the Dragon Age games are actually about Thedas, not just one character.

This.  So very much this.

The mage-templar conflict in DAO was interesting and added a lot of flavor to the world.  The decision the Warden had to make in Broken Circle was not so gray - there were innocent mages in the tower that could be saved, and the evil had not spilled out into the larger world.  The Warden could role-play a choice that felt like it had some morality attached to it.  Knight-Commander Greagoir and First Enchanter Irving both seemed like reasonable people, and some mages (Wynne and Ines) were allowed to leave the confines of the circle tower to pursue other interests.

Contrast this with DA2 feeding us the muddled middle gray and being forced to support one side or the other when both sides are wrong - and both sides are right - and the same scenarios play out regardless of which side you choose.

I have felt that for this franchise to "kick over the sandcastle" in the second installment was premature.  There are some very strong feelings on both sides of the issue among the player base, and this has now made a quantum leap from something simmering in the background to open warfare.  At this point, they are going to have to either push a resolution in some form - which will change the world state in a way that might not be palatable to all players - or leave the conflict, now boiling over, in the background and leave players wondering wtf is going on with this.

I personally have had my fill of it.  If a future installment in this franchise deals exclusively with this conflict and leaves it all in shades of gray, I will more than likely skip that installment.

[JaegerBane]

erynnar wrote...

Let's face it, we're going to wind up with a save the world scenario again. DA2 was an intermission to this. The world is on fire and only the Warden and the Champion can put it out. This amuses me. For all the "we hate the save the world stories," well get ready, because we're all going to have one again.

Good. It may not be the most original but I'm willing to bet it'll do a lot better job of engaging the player than 10 years worth of finding people's pants or trinkets.

[KillTheLastRomantic]

The whole of DA2 seemed like a prologue to a massive mage-templar conflict. Now that the build-up is over the third game has the opportunity to be far more epic. Hopefully it ties in more with Flemeth and Morrigan and ditches Hawke altogether.

[Realmzmaster]

If DA3 focuses on mage-templar it will be hard pressed to dump the Hawke character entirely. In fact you could be the seeker who is looking for both Hawke and/or the Warden to help quell the war.

[Icy Magebane]

I agree with everything in the OP except the overall quality of the game, which I still consider "above average." But yeah, this mage vs. templar bs needs to end... It's both annoying and tiresome, and should really just be a theme used to craft the world rather than the main focus of a game. The worst part is how magic can be used in the middle of town without the Templars even attempting to arrest Hawke and/or his companions. If they were going to base the whole game around this concept, they could have at least remained consistent. Oh, it's too much work to make a separate storyline for apostates, who, according to the lore, can't legally operate in Kirkwall? Then don't make the main character and 2-3 companions apostates...

Oh, actually I also disagree with retconning DA2's story in any way... I absolutely hate retcons in all forms.

[Hurbster]

I think what might have was a helped would have been a better in-game explanation that Kirkwall was basically on a Hellmouth. Might have given a bit more depth to the mages. Instead we got some journal entries (for some reason I had no inclination to read DA2's journal whereas I was all over DA's) and mages just going nuts all the time.

[culletron1]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

The problem with the mage/templar story is that in a cast of complete monsters, extremists, and fools, you have no one to get behind. The audience becomes apathetic, and that should never happen in an RPG, because the player effectively becomes a spectator, watching this group of utterly unlikable people kill each other. Also, the role of the player needs to be more proactive, instead of reactive. It seems like crises happened around Hawke and he/she responded to them. There was no chance for Hawke to actively seek out big problems in Kirkwall and fix them.

Agree. Other than the Arishock there was no character I liked... 

Where were the complex villians? The whole thing was just SO 1-dimensional and cliched!!! Darkspawn can be one dimensional... Human characters can't be.

Where are the Jamie Lannisters and the Loghains? Why is there no depth to ANYONE in DA2?? This is something that DA:O and the witcher 2 nailed. Its something that DA2 fails horribly at... Culminating with the Orsino clusterfail at the end of the game... 

Bioware created such a wonderful fantasy world in Thedas its amazing that DA2 is what we got... Giving the starting point of DA:O there is just so many ways to make an impact on the player

What about rogue greywardens gone mad from the taint?
What about Slavers from tevinter that are likable dispite their disgusting actions?
What about slaves so beaten down they don't want to be free?
What about rogue mages experimenting with darkspawn?
We could have Dwarven caste rebellions lead by a charasmatic leader...
We could have groups of Elvish guerillas attacking humans with muddled morality
Where are the Legion of the Dead heros with extremely dark pasts?

Yeah yeah DA2 isn't a terrible game but when I think that we were stuck in (dull) Kirkwall for the whole of that game (with 1 dimensional mages and even more 1 dimensional templars) with so much amazing stuff in Thedas... What an absolute disappointment!


edit - sorry for the rant I got a bit carried away there...

Modifié par culletron1, 14 juillet 2011 - 01:49 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

The problem with this gam is that it was rushed. Plain and simple. Templar vs. Mages story can be interesting and engaging, if done properly.

I wouldn't go and say Bio doesn't know how to do nuanced stories - that's jumping to conclusions. Rather that they dropped the ball on this particular one.

Nor would I say that all people on both sides were unlikable monsters. Bethany and Orsino (up untill the end at least) were both sensible and likable.
Cullen and that other templar - again, likable and sensible.

It's difficult to specify exactly the point of faliure - there isn't one specific one. A combination of elements led to this ...product.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Hello There wrote...

I created a poll to see peoples opinions on what they would like the main story of DA3 to be about.

Poll Here.

Where's hte "I don't care anymore" option?

[Lotion Soronarr]

JaegerBane wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Cullen...isn't the sharpest tool in the shed.

That's a bit of an understatement. He's the biggest doofus in Dragon Age after Jowan.

Considering how everyone else is acting (including the Champion) he ends up as the sanest in the bunch.