158 réponses à ce sujet

[JaegerBane]

culletron1 wrote...

Bioware created such a wonderful fantasy world in Thedas its amazing that DA2 is what we got... Giving the starting point of DA:O there is just so many ways to make an impact on the player

What about rogue greywardens gone mad from the taint?
What about Slavers from tevinter that are likable dispite their disgusting actions?
What about slaves so beaten down they don't want to be free?
What about rogue mages experimenting with darkspawn?
We could have Dwarven caste rebellions lead by a charasmatic leader...
We could have groups of Elvish guerillas attacking humans with muddled morality
Where are the Legion of the Dead heros with extremely dark pasts?

Yeah yeah DA2 isn't a terrible game but when I think that we were stuck in (dull) Kirkwall for the whole of that game (with 1 dimensional mages and even more 1 dimensional templars) with so much amazing stuff in Thedas... What an absolute disappointment!

Exactly. There was so much stuff that was only hinted at in DA:O and it's expansions, it comes across as a a crying shame that all this stuff was sidelined in favour of something that has already been thrashed out and done to death in the first game. I, for one, can't believe they left all that stuff about the Architect hanging. This is the first chance in millenia that the Wardens have to learn more about the nature of the Darkspawn, the blights and the Old Gods - possibly a way to stop the blights forever and wipe out the Darkspawn.... but nooooo, agonising over mages and mingling with a band of emos is far more important....

That said, I was fine with the game up until the 2nd act. The first act started off ok and steadily got more interesting, culminating in a very disturbing discovery down in the depths of the deep roads.....

But then it's all sidelined in favour of rehashing everthing Sten said about the Qun in the first game. And then it turns into the medieval equivalent of Plan 9 From Outer space in Act 3. Seriously Bioware, you're supposed to be the experts in this type of thing...

[timebandit13]

I think the only reason they are rehashing the Qun and the short seemingly pointless conflict with the Arishok is to set up a massive Qunari invansion, it gives them a great reason to move the focus to Tevinter or back to Ferelden, and the templar-mage conflict will be more or less sidelined, factoring into the game but only really adding extra tension. The focus on the invasion will be something relatively new and only scarcely used so at least they won't be beating a dead horse, like with the mages and templars

[Weltea]

I'm not saying the mages/templar conflict has to be the main focus but it should definitely be important,ignoring it would just be wrong. And also make DA2 pretty much pointless

[KotorEffect3]

Say what you want about DA 2 I like the concept of mages vs templars. I've wanted to see the mages rebel ever since DAO.  Besides not every story has to be an epic save the world thing to be compelling.

Modifié par KotorEffect3, 15 juillet 2011 - 12:06 .

[Teddie Sage]

The poll has 33% answers everywhere...

[Weltea]

JaegerBane wrote...



Exactly. There was so much stuff that was only hinted at in DA:O and it's expansions, it comes across as a a crying shame that all this stuff was sidelined in favour of something that has already been thrashed out and done to death in the first game. I, for one, can't believe they left all that stuff about the Architect hanging. This is the first chance in millenia that the Wardens have to learn more about the nature of the Darkspawn, the blights and the Old Gods - possibly a way to stop the blights forever and wipe out the Darkspawn....
.

I kinda got the impression that we would get to know more about the Architect in the new DLC (I just saw the trailer and thought that whatever it is you're fighting looks a lot like the Architect so maybe "Legacy" will fill us in as to how he "woke up")
Also,how is it that the Wardens have a chance to learn more about the Darkspawn (because of the Architect)? He either dies or vanishes,not a lot of questions to ask.And his people apparently didn't really stick around either...

[Hello There]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The problem with this gam is that it was rushed. Plain and simple. Templar vs. Mages story can be interesting and engaging, if done properly.

I wouldn't go and say Bio doesn't know how to do nuanced stories - that's jumping to conclusions. Rather that they dropped the ball on this particular one.

Nor would I say that all people on both sides were unlikable monsters. Bethany and Orsino (up untill the end at least) were both sensible and likable.
Cullen and that other templar - again, likable and sensible.

It's difficult to specify exactly the point of faliure - there isn't one specific one. A combination of elements led to this ...product.

Orsino was the biggest kick in the balls of the whole game. All the way up your thinking that there is at least one sensible mage, and then out of nowhere he cluster****s you. You can't say he is a good example if you just ignore the end.

And while i liked Cullen, the whole time i couldn't help thinking "why is it that the only good NPC in this game is an NPC from Origins? Couldn't Bioware make an original character?"

[Hello There]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Hello There wrote...

I created a poll to see peoples opinions on what they would like the main story of DA3 to be about.

Poll Here.

Where's hte "I don't care anymore" option?

That would be silly, i want results on the direction of DA3's story, not "I don't care".

[Hello There]

Weltea wrote...

I'm not saying the mages/templar conflict has to be the main focus but it should definitely be important,ignoring it would just be wrong. And also make DA2 pretty much pointless

Rehashing it would just be boring, and for some reason...familiar.

DA2 ignored DAO, it even outright opposed your choices.

[KotorEffect3]

Hello There wrote...

Weltea wrote...

I'm not saying the mages/templar conflict has to be the main focus but it should definitely be important,ignoring it would just be wrong. And also make DA2 pretty much pointless

Rehashing it would just be boring, and for some reason...familiar.

DA2 ignored DAO, it even outright opposed your choices.

I don't think they had a sequel in mind when the made DAO (unlike Mass Effect which was a planned trilogy) that being said if DA 2 had more time in development they would probably have been able to handle how player choice was implemented better.

[outlaw1109]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nor would I say that all people on both sides were unlikable monsters. Bethany and Orsino (up untill the end at least) were both sensible and likable.
Cullen and that other templar - again, likable and sensible.

It's difficult to specify exactly the point of faliure - there isn't one specific one. A combination of elements led to this ...product.

***Minor Spoilers***



Rushed or no, the failure is in the execution.  Good idea, poorly executed.

As far as Characters go, yeah, there's some 'likable' people about, but one of my big issues is with the lack of interesting adversaries.   Logain, for example, was a patriot to fereldan, and he stuck to that throughout Origins, even though that meant he was against you.

Orsino, on the other hand, talked about the bad bad blood mages and then...well, then the end of the game happened and its like, "What?  You complain that the mages are being persecuted as all Blood Mages, yet you do that?  Really?"

You acquire an object after the first act that supposedly causes Meredith to loose her mind.  But weren't things already bad before aquisition of said object?  It was a nice attempt to explain her insanity, but failed because the object didn't exist in the first act when Mages were being made tranquil.

These characters where shoehorned into being antagonists when really, the Mage v. Templar thing, could've have been a sidequest (and a good one at that [with minor editing]).  The Arishok could very well have taken center stage and been saved for the "last fight" considering how much of the game revolves around him.  Especially considering how many people actually liked the character.

Sorry for the rant.

[KLUME777]

outlaw1109 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nor would I say that all people on both sides were unlikable monsters. Bethany and Orsino (up untill the end at least) were both sensible and likable.
Cullen and that other templar - again, likable and sensible.

It's difficult to specify exactly the point of faliure - there isn't one specific one. A combination of elements led to this ...product.

***Minor Spoilers***



Rushed or no, the failure is in the execution.  Good idea, poorly executed.

As far as Characters go, yeah, there's some 'likable' people about, but one of my big issues is with the lack of interesting adversaries.   Logain, for example, was a patriot to fereldan, and he stuck to that throughout Origins, even though that meant he was against you.

Orsino, on the other hand, talked about the bad bad blood mages and then...well, then the end of the game happened and its like, "What?  You complain that the mages are being persecuted as all Blood Mages, yet you do that?  Really?"

You acquire an object after the first act that supposedly causes Meredith to loose her mind.  But weren't things already bad before aquisition of said object?  It was a nice attempt to explain her insanity, but failed because the object didn't exist in the first act when Mages were being made tranquil.

These characters where shoehorned into being antagonists when really, the Mage v. Templar thing, could've have been a sidequest (and a good one at that [with minor editing]).  The Arishok could very well have taken center stage and been saved for the "last fight" considering how much of the game revolves around him.  Especially considering how many people actually liked the character.

Sorry for the rant.

Agreed.

[KotorEffect3]

outlaw1109 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nor would I say that all people on both sides were unlikable monsters. Bethany and Orsino (up untill the end at least) were both sensible and likable.
Cullen and that other templar - again, likable and sensible.

It's difficult to specify exactly the point of faliure - there isn't one specific one. A combination of elements led to this ...product.

***Minor Spoilers***



Rushed or no, the failure is in the execution.  Good idea, poorly executed.

As far as Characters go, yeah, there's some 'likable' people about, but one of my big issues is with the lack of interesting adversaries.   Logain, for example, was a patriot to fereldan, and he stuck to that throughout Origins, even though that meant he was against you.

Orsino, on the other hand, talked about the bad bad blood mages and then...well, then the end of the game happened and its like, "What?  You complain that the mages are being persecuted as all Blood Mages, yet you do that?  Really?"

You acquire an object after the first act that supposedly causes Meredith to loose her mind.  But weren't things already bad before aquisition of said object?  It was a nice attempt to explain her insanity, but failed because the object didn't exist in the first act when Mages were being made tranquil.

These characters where shoehorned into being antagonists when really, the Mage v. Templar thing, could've have been a sidequest (and a good one at that [with minor editing]).  The Arishok could very well have taken center stage and been saved for the "last fight" considering how much of the game revolves around him.  Especially considering how many people actually liked the character.

Sorry for the rant.

Meredith could have been a better antagonist if she was featured more often than she was. She doesn't even speak until the end of act 2 and you only briefly see her walking by in a short cutscene in act 1.  In DAO we were well aware of Loghain from the beginning you can even briefly speak to him at Ostagar and throughout the game he is shown in numerous cutscenes.  You felt his presence.

[Tommy6860]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

outlaw1109 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nor would I say that all people on both sides were unlikable monsters. Bethany and Orsino (up untill the end at least) were both sensible and likable.
Cullen and that other templar - again, likable and sensible.

It's difficult to specify exactly the point of faliure - there isn't one specific one. A combination of elements led to this ...product.

***Minor Spoilers***



Rushed or no, the failure is in the execution.  Good idea, poorly executed.

As far as Characters go, yeah, there's some 'likable' people about, but one of my big issues is with the lack of interesting adversaries.   Logain, for example, was a patriot to fereldan, and he stuck to that throughout Origins, even though that meant he was against you.

Orsino, on the other hand, talked about the bad bad blood mages and then...well, then the end of the game happened and its like, "What?  You complain that the mages are being persecuted as all Blood Mages, yet you do that?  Really?"

You acquire an object after the first act that supposedly causes Meredith to loose her mind.  But weren't things already bad before aquisition of said object?  It was a nice attempt to explain her insanity, but failed because the object didn't exist in the first act when Mages were being made tranquil.

These characters where shoehorned into being antagonists when really, the Mage v. Templar thing, could've have been a sidequest (and a good one at that [with minor editing]).  The Arishok could very well have taken center stage and been saved for the "last fight" considering how much of the game revolves around him.  Especially considering how many people actually liked the character.

Sorry for the rant.

Meredith could have been a better antagonist if she was featured more often than she was. She doesn't even speak until the end of act 2 and you only briefly see her walking by in a short cutscene in act 1.  In DAO we were well aware of Loghain from the beginning you can even briefly speak to him at Ostagar and throughout the game he is shown in numerous cutscenes.  You felt his presence.

*weezing guttural voice* I sensed his presence as well.

[Sinaxi]

DA2 set up many potential storylines that could be in DA3. Morrigan's child/Flemeth surely still have a potential role to play in any upcoming DA game, and in more prominent matters Alistair did mention problems with Orlais...which could work right in with the Mage/Templar war considering that is where the Divine is who governs both the Templars and Seekers. Honestly though, even though a lot of people hated the Mage/Templar thing...it would be sort of crappy if that storyline just suddenly disappeared..it wouldn't make any sense. It would definitely upset me because I want to see how it all plays out. Even though saving the world from the Blight is great and all...the politically charged tensions in DA2 were more interesting to me and could make for a great continuation game if given the right amount of time and detail in the storytelling. Also, I think it would be kind of weird if we started with a new PC...not seeing the Mage/Templar thing through on Hawke would be a let down - especially since Leilana specifically refers to both the Warden and Hawke as being central and important to the conflict. Adding in another random character would just be...ehh.

[outlaw1109]

KotorEffect3 wrote...


Meredith could have been a better antagonist if she was featured more often than she was. She doesn't even speak until the end of act 2 and you only briefly see her walking by in a short cutscene in act 1.  In DAO we were well aware of Loghain from the beginning you can even briefly speak to him at Ostagar and throughout the game he is shown in numerous cutscenes.  You felt his presence.

Which, IMO, is why Mage v Templar would have been a better side quest.

Although, my point was leaning more towards the depth of character.  There's no development in her at all.  She's simply insane.  Through the whole game.  The only actual spark of sanity that can be witnessed is when she turns down the "tranquil solution" (written in a codex entry, btw).  Heck, the Archdemon had more depth than Meredith or Orisino.

At least this new DLC seems to have some depth in its antagonist.

[KotorEffect3]

outlaw1109 wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...


Meredith could have been a better antagonist if she was featured more often than she was. She doesn't even speak until the end of act 2 and you only briefly see her walking by in a short cutscene in act 1.  In DAO we were well aware of Loghain from the beginning you can even briefly speak to him at Ostagar and throughout the game he is shown in numerous cutscenes.  You felt his presence.

Which, IMO, is why Mage v Templar would have been a better side quest.

Although, my point was leaning more towards the depth of character.  There's no development in her at all.  She's simply insane.  Through the whole game.  The only actual spark of sanity that can be witnessed is when she turns down the "tranquil solution" (written in a codex entry, btw).  Heck, the Archdemon had more depth than Meredith or Orisino.

At least this new DLC seems to have some depth in its antagonist.

She didn't have depth because by the time we interacted with her she was already nuts thanks to the Idol.  If we could have seen her character progression (as well as Orsino's) throughout the game that would have helped, I am fine with them not interacting with Hawke until end of act 2/beginning of act 3 but they could have shown both of them in various cutscenes and it would have given there character's more depth.  They also should have written Orsino to only go nuts if the player sides with the templars.  If the player was pro-mage (I always am) than the player should have helped Orsino and maybe a few of the other mages escape by keeping Meredith busy during the final battle providing the diversion the mages needed to escape.

[outlaw1109]

Okay, I can agree with that/see your point.

Modifié par outlaw1109, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:30 .

[Weltea]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

They also should have written Orsino to only go nuts if the player sides with the templars.  If the player was pro-mage (I always am) than the player should have helped Orsino and maybe a few of the other mages escape by keeping Meredith busy during the final battle providing the diversion the mages needed to escape.

Except that would have defeated the whole point of it because then if you think the mages are the bad guys you get proven right and same when you think the templars are the bad guys.
Also,how would you have found out about Orsinos involvement in your mothers death in your scenario? Would that also have been ignored?

[CrimsonZephyr]

Weltea wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

They also should have written Orsino to only go nuts if the player sides with the templars.  If the player was pro-mage (I always am) than the player should have helped Orsino and maybe a few of the other mages escape by keeping Meredith busy during the final battle providing the diversion the mages needed to escape.

Except that would have defeated the whole point of it because then if you think the mages are the bad guys you get proven right and same when you think the templars are the bad guys.
Also,how would you have found out about Orsinos involvement in your mothers death in your scenario? Would that also have been ignored?

That plot point with Orsino just seemed slapped on to make him seem eviler in a Scrodinger's Cat sort of scenario with the Templar ending. If they weren't going to develop it, they should have axed it. Orsino and Meredith should have been THE most developed characters. Ahead of the Arishok, ahead of the Viscount, ahead of Bartrand (whose involvement was disproportionately large). I really don't buy that they had to cut out development for those two due to time constraints. If the focus of the game had been properly on them, there wouldn't be anything cut about them. Hell, even Quentin should have gotten some character development beyond "Mad Scientist Blood Mage."

[outlaw1109]

Weltea wrote...

Except that would have defeated the whole point of it because then if you think the mages are the bad guys you get proven right and same when you think the templars are the bad guys.
Also,how would you have found out about Orsinos involvement in your mothers death in your scenario? Would that also have been ignored?

but that makes those choices have weight.

Just like ME, when you have the choice to punch the reporter or not. (or a multitude of other choices) there are consequences to them all...because they matter, whereas DA2 gives you choices only to have the same outcome...

Edit

added quote

Modifié par outlaw1109, 15 juillet 2011 - 03:50 .

[Sainthood85]

I'm sure we'll see Mages vs. Templars in DA3. Probably varies on HOW we see it depending on if we can choose our Origins like in the first.

When you think about it enough though, the Templars are a necessary evil.

Sure its not fair to those who are born with magic, but all it took was a little lax and one or two crazy mages and in no time you had the ENTIRE circle of Magi in Ferelden at the mercy of Blood Mages and demons. (One or two mages leading to the corruption of many others creating a chain reaction)

Give enough Mages power and you get the Tevinter Imperium.

Whenever you gave the mages in DA2 mercy they literally would turn around later in the game and betray for power, demons, insanity, douchebaggery, etc. etc.

To let the mages govern themselves is psychotic because they show time and again that without strict and harsh control, a few mages will get power hungry, turn to blood magic, and kill innocents. There is no way the mages could govern themselves without using an arbitrary party system that acted as an Inquisition to root out and prevent Blood Magic, but did not answer to mages.

I think Dune summed it up quite nicely that, Even should you give all the power in the world to your superhero, your messiah, inevitably it will corrupt him. And if not him then he did have the absolute power long enough, then the one who inherits the power will instead be corrupt and destroy us all.

I dont like the Chantry though, but thats just my personal opinion, Man makes it choices and shapes its fate, not well.....you know. Go Anders & kittens.

[Weltea]

outlaw1109 wrote...

Weltea wrote...

Except that would have defeated the whole point of it because then if you think the mages are the bad guys you get proven right and same when you think the templars are the bad guys.
Also,how would you have found out about Orsinos involvement in your mothers death in your scenario? Would that also have been ignored?

but that makes those choices have weight.

Just like ME, when you have the choice to punch the reporter or not. (or a multitude of other choices) there are consequences to them all...because they matter, whereas DA2 gives you choices only to have the same outcome...

Edit

added quote

I disagree. The fact that both choices end with fighting Orsino and Meredith is what  this gives it more depth because it's more than your typical "I'm the protagonist,I was right all along" thing

[MeAndMySandvich]

Sainthood85 wrote...

I'm sure we'll see Mages vs. Templars in DA3. Probably varies on HOW we see it depending on if we can choose our Origins like in the first.

When you think about it enough though, the Templars are a necessary evil.

Sure its not fair to those who are born with magic, but all it took was a little lax and one or two crazy mages and in no time you had the ENTIRE circle of Magi in Ferelden at the mercy of Blood Mages and demons. (One or two mages leading to the corruption of many others creating a chain reaction)

Give enough Mages power and you get the Tevinter Imperium.

Whenever you gave the mages in DA2 mercy they literally would turn around later in the game and betray for power, demons, insanity, douchebaggery, etc. etc.

To let the mages govern themselves is psychotic because they show time and again that without strict and harsh control, a few mages will get power hungry, turn to blood magic, and kill innocents. There is no way the mages could govern themselves without using an arbitrary party system that acted as an Inquisition to root out and prevent Blood Magic, but did not answer to mages.

I think Dune summed it up quite nicely that, Even should you give all the power in the world to your superhero, your messiah, inevitably it will corrupt him. And if not him then he did have the absolute power long enough, then the one who inherits the power will instead be corrupt and destroy us all.

I dont like the Chantry though, but thats just my personal opinion, Man makes it choices and shapes its fate, not well.....you know. Go Anders & kittens.

Of course, this is only true of DA2 vs. DA:O. I do think it's hilarious that they accidentally turned Dragon Age into 40K: The Prequel. Warp = fade, psyker = mage.

[Sainthood85]

Suffer not the witch to live.