127 réponses à ce sujet

[Marduksdragon]

Desire demons prefer to foster desires that already exist-- not just from their own mouths but from the codex. In this case, she has little reason to lie when the truth would serve better. Also we know from Carroll that Knight-Commander Greagoir frowns on his men even speaking of relations with women if you take Leliana to meet him.

They were going rogue, every time. Emeric was sent to find the missing mage, and it turned into a murder investigation (and he's one of the Templars that sneaks out to visit the Blooming Rose, which seems to be common among the rebellious Templars save Samson and Cullen). Thrask and his men were one step from open rebellion, had Grace not killed them.

[TJPags]

So, they are voluntary slaves?

And this is . . .bad?

Okay then . . . .

[Marduksdragon]

They don't know the real Order until it's far too late to leave. Some mages turn themselves over to the Circle because of Chantry doctrine-- does this mean they have no right to change their mind and want to leave? When a Templar does that he has about as much choice as a mage-- mostly death. Even if he does live through withdrawal he faces potential madness and if sane, a crippling expensive addiction for the rest of his days so that he might as well be dead.

[DRTJR]

@ Macropodmum A member of the circle was killed thus Emeric had the authority to investigate. He did it because it was personal.

[TJPags]

Marduksdragon wrote...

They don't know the real Order until it's far too late to leave. Some mages turn themselves over to the Circle because of Chantry doctrine-- does this mean they have no right to change their mind and want to leave? When a Templar does that he has about as much choice as a mage-- mostly death. Even if he does live through withdrawal he faces potential madness and if sane, a crippling expensive addiction for the rest of his days so that he might as well be dead.

So, they voluntarily join a group, go through the training, learn all about it, choose to continue, and then later want to quit, and suffer the effects of those choices . . . and it's the Chantry's fault?

Yup.  Let's enable some more people.
Nah, you know what - let's hold people accountable for the own decisions.  How about that?

[Rifneno]

TJPags wrote...

So, they voluntarily join a group, go through the training, learn all about it, choose to continue, and then later want to quit, and suffer the effects of those choices . . . and it's the Chantry's fault?

Yup.  Let's enable some more people.
Nah, you know what - let's hold people accountable for the own decisions.  How about that?

Stop making sense.  It's creepy.

[Marduksdragon]

The initiates aren't allowed to speak to anyone. They are cloistered (unless there are people like Emeric and Cullen who let them escape into town now and then to the Blooming Rose) and not shown everything. The 'glory' of the order, trappings of faith and need for money drive people like Keran to join. That's being no more or less informed than a Circle mage who feels the need to hand themselves in because of the Orlesian doctrine. And neither may leave.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 09 juillet 2011 - 01:14 .

[TJPags]

Rifneno wrote...

TJPags wrote...

So, they voluntarily join a group, go through the training, learn all about it, choose to continue, and then later want to quit, and suffer the effects of those choices . . . and it's the Chantry's fault?

Yup.  Let's enable some more people.
Nah, you know what - let's hold people accountable for the own decisions.  How about that?

Stop making sense.  It's creepy.

Yea, I know . . . .i can imagine you doing a double take . . or a triple take. 

[Macropodmum]

DRTJR wrote...

@ Macropodmum A member of the circle was killed thus Emeric had the authority to investigate. He did it because it was personal.

Yes, initially he was sent to track down a circle mage, which they did to the foundry where she vanished.  If you question him as to what he think happens to her you get no definate answer.  He continued to look into the other deaths on his own because both the chantry and the city guard said that they weren't related and he was seeing connections where there were none.  Point being that he did this of his own free will out of concern for the women, something a 'slave' would not have been allowed to do.

[Marduksdragon]

So Emeric looking into the deaths while he's on patrol (and we do see several Templars on patrol through the city at various times) isn't something a slave would think of? How do you figure? Do you magically stop caring for others when you're a slave?

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 09 juillet 2011 - 01:36 .

[DRTJR]

Macropodmum wrote...

DRTJR wrote...

@ Macropodmum A member of the circle was killed thus Emeric had the authority to investigate. He did it because it was personal.

Yes, initially he was sent to track down a circle mage, which they did to the foundry where she vanished.  If you question him as to what he think happens to her you get no definate answer.  He continued to look into the other deaths on his own because both the chantry and the city guard said that they weren't related and he was seeing connections where there were none.  Point being that he did this of his own free will out of concern for the women, something a 'slave' would not have been allowed to do.

He's not exactly in Mage hunting condition so maybe they let the Older ones do what they want so long as it's not against the rules.

[Marduksdragon]

DRTJR wrote...

Macropodmum wrote...

DRTJR wrote...

@ Macropodmum A member of the circle was killed thus Emeric had the authority to investigate. He did it because it was personal.

Yes, initially he was sent to track down a circle mage, which they did to the foundry where she vanished.  If you question him as to what he think happens to her you get no definate answer.  He continued to look into the other deaths on his own because both the chantry and the city guard said that they weren't related and he was seeing connections where there were none.  Point being that he did this of his own free will out of concern for the women, something a 'slave' would not have been allowed to do.

He's not exactly in Mage hunting condition so maybe they let the Older ones do what they want so long as it's not against the rules.

They know he'll come back for his lyrium and won't do anything to jeopardize it. Not much danger in him going walksies.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 09 juillet 2011 - 02:28 .

[Macropodmum]

Marduksdragon wrote...

So Emeric looking into the deaths while he's on patrol (and we do see several Templars on patrol through the city at various times) isn't something a slave would think of? How do you figure? Do you magically stop caring for others when you're a slave?

How do you know whether he is on patrol or not?  As far as whether slaves care or not is irrelevant, slaves only go where their masters say, do what their masters dictate and I doubt any of them have enough free time to pursue thier own interests.  The whole notion of slave is that you are OWNED by another and as such have no free will, if you manage to escape you are hunted down and brought back or killed, big difference between that and deciding to leave the templars (of your own free will) and suffering lyrium withdrawal (which you subjected yourself to). 

Modifié par Macropodmum, 09 juillet 2011 - 01:48 .

[Marduksdragon]

Macropodmum wrote...

Marduksdragon wrote...

So Emeric looking into the deaths while he's on patrol (and we do see several Templars on patrol through the city at various times) isn't something a slave would think of? How do you figure? Do you magically stop caring for others when you're a slave?

How do you know whether he is on patrol or not?  As far as whether slaves care or not is irrelevant, slaves only go where their masters say, do what their masters dictate and I doubt any of them have enough free time to pursue thier own interests.  The whole notion of slave is that you are OWNED by another and as such have no free will, if you manage to escape you are hunted down and brought back or killed, big difference between that and deciding to leave the templars (of your own free will) and suffering lyrium withdrawal (which you subjected yourself to). 

We don't know he wasn't on patrol either-- which means he would have been ordered to do so, but he chose to investigate while out.

Yes, I'm sure in the whole history of slavery, slaves only go where they are told. And every rebellion was something they were told to do. Every time a mage turns to demons, they were told to do this because they have no free will. No. Being a slave compromises your free will, you act within the spectrum allowed you by your role until sufficiently stressed, it doesn't strip it.

Subjected yourself to under false pretenses. Leave only to go mad, die, or be an addict (or be executed, depending on how you left). I don't see the difference between the chemical chain and a tangible one.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 09 juillet 2011 - 02:01 .

[Macropodmum]

How is it under false pretenses though? Alistair knew of the lyrium addiction faced by templars, surely he wasn't the only one? Nobody forces them to take their final vows and become lyrium addicts, they do this of their own free will. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree because we have very different ideas about what constitutes a life of servitude as opposed to slavery.

[Marduksdragon]

Alistair was taken from his final vows by Duncan. He also learned he could use his training without the lyrium-- that's how he knows.

They aren't allowed to fully interact with the rest of the Order until they've already been doped. If they take those vows under false pretenses (in this case without full knowledge of what they're getting into), are given chemical controls and then aren't allowed to leave-- how is that not slavery?

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 09 juillet 2011 - 02:11 .

[DRTJR]

They can have Wives as seen with Wesley, and Mage on Templar as well as Templar on Templar action probably happens (see F!Mage Warden and Cullen). Still it's an excuse for deposing the Empress of Orlais and the white Divine

[Marduksdragon]

DRTJR wrote...

They can have Wives as seen with Wesley, and Mage on Templar as well as Templar on Templar action probably happens (see F!Mage Warden and Cullen). Still it's an excuse for deposing the Empress of Orlais and the white Divine

Some of them can have wives. Some mages can get married too. I'm not discounting mutual willing mage/Templar action if it's discrete-- it was a subject of humor and not horror in Ferelden so that's not impossible--- and we certainly know that there are sexually deviant monsters like Alrik and Quentin hanging around both sides.

But yes, the White Divine needs to die for all this.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 09 juillet 2011 - 02:26 .

[DRTJR]

I wish revenge for the Dales but to each their own.

Quentin is just suffing from the loss of his wife, he makes Meredith look sane but still Alrik is creepy.

Templars are drug addicts with the chanty giving them not only their fix but their pay, Slaves this does not make them. Is the Divine is Evil, Oh H*ll yes, but not a slaver.

[Marduksdragon]

The mages are given free educations, clothes, food, lodging, equipment, expensive amulets and other things--- does this make them any less slaves when they produce goods for the Chantry to be sold at stores like Wonders of Thedas?

The Templars are slave soldiers. There were paid gladiators in ancient Rome, who were unarguably slaves, called auctorati. Also all gladiators were allowed to keep their prize money and any awards they recieved. I don't see how money changes the Templar's situation-- especially since they aren't really paid a normal wage until after they're hooked on the lyrium.

Quentin is replacing every part of his wife perfectly. There are some disturbing implications of how he would examine some of those parts to make sure they were 'just right' and I'll leave it at that.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 09 juillet 2011 - 02:40 .

[DRTJR]

Templars can leave at any time they so chose(As bad of an idea as it may be). they where meant to be warriors that are made loyal, besides supposedly if you last long enough their is a pretty nice retirement package.

Also why no Elven Templars?

[Marduksdragon]

The Chantry removed the entire Canticle of Shartan from the Chant. I can see very clearly why there are no elven Templars.

Mages can run. All they can do is be caught, tranquiled or killed. Templars can run. All they can do is go mad, die, or become penniless shivering addicts. Pretty much a non-choice either way. The retirement's up for argument (I actually dealt with that in the huge imposing textwall) on how great it may or may not be. Usually when a Templar is old enough to retire, he's also sick with late stage lyrium poisoning.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 09 juillet 2011 - 02:53 .

[DRTJR]

I could see why their would be no Elven Knight Commanders, But shouldn't their be a handfull of Elves that join. a full knight is apparently paid well and free medical and a sweet retirement package I don't see why an Elf or two don't join.

[Marduksdragon]

DRTJR wrote...

I could see why their would be no Elven Knight Commanders, But shouldn't their be a handfull of Elves that join. a full knight is apparently paid well and free medical and a sweet retirement package I don't see why an Elf or two don't join.

They aren't allowed to because the Chantry supports the subjugation of the elves on religious grounds. To let them walk among the soldier-slaves who are supposed to represent the faith would raise too many questions. That veneer of respectability is what lures the human recruits in. Besides most of Orlais is built on elven servitude-- so says Leliana.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 09 juillet 2011 - 03:01 .

[DRTJR]

I forgot Orlais was worse than tevinter in terms of Elf rights*. to refuse Andratains who are Elves(even though their are no qualms for Dwarves in the Chantries**) because their Elves is silly at best and extremely racist at worst.

*A citizen Elf in tevinter is Tevinter first and Elf second plus it's possible that their are Elven Magisters

**Brother Burkel of the red cliff chantry