127 réponses à ce sujet

[Marduksdragon]

Yup. There's more cohesion between races in Tevinter, and more stratification along magical and economic lines. A good example of that is in the "Tevinter Healer" quest in the Denerim Alienage in DAO.

Orlais is extremely racist (there aren't any elf priests there either to my knowledge, and I've never physically seen one in game). So was Leliana if your Warden was an elf. Besides, it might endanger their main supplies of recruits. Can't do that. The wheels of the machine grinding these people underneath it's weight might stop and Orlais get pitched into the sea--- and they can't have that.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 09 juillet 2011 - 03:26 .

[DRTJR]

You know what would show the lunacy of the White divine at her finest, the Archons being a female Elf. Irony aside I wonder what happens to Elven Orphans that the chantry takes care of?

[Marduksdragon]

Oh, if the Black Divine is an elf I would laugh so hard. So hard. Come to think, while I'm not sure the lyrium system is in place in Tevinter (not sure we've ever seen a Templar from Tevinter, despite knowing that they have them) they might have elven Templars there. I just don't hold out much hope for a non-lyrium system (or something comperable in blood magic) because Tevinter is so predisposed to slavery and the lyrium system is a very efficient means of it.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 09 juillet 2011 - 03:30 .

[Auroras]

The thing is, a lot of the evidence for templars being slaves is based on Kirkwall's particular branch of the Order, which was governed by Meredith. She enforced many of the harsher rules of the Order.

[DRTJR]

The Imperium's Templar's Probably are Abomination and Qunari killers. so I doubt that they'd waste such reasorces as Templars when they could be throwing available Templars at the followes of the Qun.

[Marduksdragon]

And a lot of the evidence for the mistreatment and slavery of mages also comes from Kirkwall.

DAO had plenty of horrible things happening to the Templars, even if they weren't showcased in the spotlight like in DA2.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 09 juillet 2011 - 03:36 .

[Marduksdragon]

DRTJR wrote...

The Imperium's Templar's Probably are Abomination and Qunari killers. so I doubt that they'd waste such reasorces as Templars when they could be throwing available Templars at the followes of the Qun.

This is a very good point. I want to meet a Tevinter Templar in game now and see how the system is different.

[Auroras]

That is very true, Marduks.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

The concept of templars being slaves via addiction is an interesting one, but I have to wonder who fills their prescriptions. Does the Knight Commander have control of the lyrium and dispense it to the lower ranks, or does the priesthood? I'd rule out the mages.

While substance abuse is a powerful way to enforce compliance, I wouldn't call the templars slaves. But to balance that, I don't call the mages slaves either. Prisoners, perhaps, especially in the case of the mages, but not slaves. Templars have limited freedoms granted by their duty, but that's hardly unusual for anyone serving in a military body.

On the subject of lyrium, while this information is not really given to us in the games it exists in WoG, particularly Anders' short story, and implied to a lesser degree in the description of Fenris' Deflect talent...that is, lyrium assists with magic resistance. In the Anders fic, a templar imbibing a lyrium potion soon before engaging a mage shields him from magic--at least temporarily.

I have my doubts that lyrium is definitely not needed for templar talents, in that my suspicion is it would have been an annoying mechanic to add to the game. Lyrium sickness is another thing that exists in lore but we don't have to deal with, no matter if you chug down potions or have your mages cuddle glowing blue stalagmites in the Deep Roads.

But that's slightly beside the point. For full templars who have been addicted by the Chantry, it wouldn't be a pleasant experience. I can only imagine what they do after DA2 when the entire Order is said to have gone AWOL. Unless someone organises a few lyrium smuggling rings there will be junkies like Samson on every street corner, or Chantries and licensed shops attacked for their stores.

re: Tevinter templars, IIRC Gaider said they are more like common soldiers than anything. They're called templars because they're the ones who get the joy of dealing with mages who have gone crazy. I suspect they may use lyrium to protect themselves whenever going magehunting, but addiction to a substance that's very expensive (lyrium is supposed to be more costly than diamonds over there) wouldn't be sustainable IMO.

[Marduksdragon]

Disagreement is okay so long as it brings something to the table for everyone and isn't just for the sake of being negative. I wouldn't have even written this whole thread at all had I not had some interesting disagreements over in the other thread. Trolling can even be funny at times (one of the first three replies to this thread was a funny troll).

The thing is, they can't really ever leave that duty without serious non-normal-even-to-medieval-military consequences (because, even in the medieval military and holy orders you could leave under your own power, save in times of war). If you joined a fighting force, then decided it was not for you and wanted to leave-- wouldn't being forced to play russian roulette with most of the chambers loaded as the only way to leave be more than unfair and like having no choice at all? Plus, imagine that after you left, that gun was always strapped to your head, ready to go off, even if you survived. And you were under a compulsion to buy bullets for it and continue pulling the trigger at regular intervals? And this ammunition was insanely expensive so as to cripple any sort of life you might try to have? That image haunts me along with the insistence of the Templar in Howe's basement that he'd rather die than be rescued... and so many other things that add up to something awful.

But magic insulation makes no sense if it restores mana reserves in mages and is used regularly in objects that harness magical power. If it's deflecting it or resisting it, wouldn't it instead prevent them from drawing on mana? The Templar chugging potions could be a psychological thing-- he craves and or believes he needs it to send him through to victory, like a very dangerous placebo. It didn't help him much in the end.

And I thought Fenris' deflect was based on the shapes the lyrium had been laid in-- like he's a giant living rune. That one would then be 'arcane shield' or something similar.

I've wondered at the lyrium sickness in mages as well, but they don't seem to get as sick anyway even in lore (compared to the few mundane, non-templar exposures we know of), from contact with lyrium. It's mentioned that working it in raw form can only be performed by a dwarf or a tranquil. Even with a dwarf, it can send them around the bend if it gets through a cut into their bloodstream.

I've thought about that myself. If they rally around Hawke, Kirkwall does have an inordinately large supply of lyrium in it's deep roads areas... maybe an expedition as a quest to help them?

Far as distribution, it probably comes through the Grand Cleric's office and is dispensed through an associate member (the gossiping priests mention brothers in Denerim that oversee the lyrium distribution- not sure if the same holds true in Kirkwall). Unfortunately the Knight-Commanders are usually older and I'm not sure, even with their responsibilities, that they'd be trusted with the stuff because they need it too and probably in greater volume.

Thank you for the information on Tevinter and that is very very interesting. Now I really want to meet one (and hope he's voiced by the guy who does Zaeed...).

Edit: speaking of Fenris, I really want to know exactly how his lyrium is processed since it seems to avoid most of the other side effects (shakes, inappropriate emotions) except progressive brain damage that targets mainly his memory.

Edit 2: I just had this awful thought. Now-- we know that the Orlesian Chantry uses blood magic-- the existence and use of phylacteries is proof enough-- but I got to thinking about lyrium and some of the correlations made to it being the substitute for blood (which was the first magic type according to the DAO codex). What if drugging the Templars serves more of a purpose than just controlling them and their deaths are unimportant to this purpose? What if it's another way to refine lyrium-- the metal then been extracted from their ashes on death (it's a metal, and metals remain in the body-- that's why someone with silver poisoning turns blue like a smurf)--- or worse, used to 'farm' lyrium in caves-- with their corpses somehow having been seeded in the process. Even I admit this is a stretch but still-- it's something to think about. Thinking back to broken circle, if something like this is going on then it may be the reason Greagoir insisted that they bodies be taken to the other side of the lake to be burned. Maybe the supervising priest would demand the ashes. I know the Templars didn't understand and complained about having to haul them all across the lake if they could just burn them right outside the tower.

Edit 3: Further, on the Tranquil (after sleeping on the idea of Fenris' tattoos and the seeming non-existant deflection powers of lyrium) the sigil on their foreheads may be a rune of deflection, turning them too (like Fenris) into living runes only theirs exclude them from all contact with the Fade.

Edit 4: Another thought-- maybe being magical yourself lessens the narcotic and addictive properties of lyrium. Magic isn't as intoxicating if you're in contact with it all the time-- it's just kind of there, like an extra limb to be flexed. A mundane having the feeling of magic overwhelming them for the first time would have no comparison for the sensation and I can see how that feeling would be addictive.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 09 juillet 2011 - 06:01 .

[WhiteKnyght]

In the end of DAII the Templars rebel against the chantry and break apart from them just to go on a mage-killing spree.

They aren't slaves. Most of them are zealots and bigots who just hate magic. They know the downsides of lyrium, they are only lied to about the reason for the lyrium.

Look at Carver Hawke. he claims to be doing it to help the world, but in reality he's just jealous of his brother/sister and sister because he thought daddy loved them more, and he didn't like the uses of magic he saw in Kirkwall which strengthened it. Also if Carver joins the Templars he is probably the one who tells Meredith about Hawke.

[tmp7704]

Marduksdragon wrote...

First, let me assert that I hate the Orlesian Chantry as much as I hate
the Orlesians in general. We've rarely met a good one in any of the
content

We've rarely met any Orlesians at all. Funny how little it takes for people to decide they hate entire nation.

[Ryzaki]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

In the end of DAII the Templars rebel against the chantry and break apart from them just to go on a mage-killing spree.

They aren't slaves. Most of them are zealots and bigots who just hate magic. They know the downsides of lyrium, they are only lied to about the reason for the lyrium.

Look at Carver Hawke. he claims to be doing it to help the world, but in reality he's just jealous of his brother/sister and sister because he thought daddy loved them more, and he didn't like the uses of magic he saw in Kirkwall which strengthened it. Also if Carver joins the Templars he is probably the one who tells Meredith about Hawke.

 

..are you serious? 

Meredith specifically mentions that "You're a mage huh? Carver never mentioned you." she learns Hawke's a mage because she sees him using magic. Not because Carver sold him out. 

[tmp7704]

Marduksdragon wrote...

The mages are given free educations, clothes, food, lodging, equipment, expensive amulets and other things--- does this make them any less slaves when they produce goods for the Chantry to be sold at stores like Wonders of Thedas?

The enchanted items are produced by tranquil who, if i recall right what mr.Gaider said at some point, aren't forced to stay in the Towers (as they're no longer mages)

[DRTJR]

tmp7704 wrote...

Marduksdragon wrote...

First, let me assert that I hate the Orlesian Chantry as much as I hate
the Orlesians in general. We've rarely met a good one in any of the
content

We've rarely met any Orlesians at all. Funny how little it takes for people to decide they hate entire nation.

their based on the French since most of the Orlesians we've meet are almost as bad as the Tevinter slavers we just asume their worst, probibly justly so.

[tmp7704]

DRTJR wrote...

their based on the French since most of the Orlesians we've meet are almost as bad as the Tevinter slavers we just asume their worst, probibly justly so.

This odd hate for the French seems to be largely US-based fenomen. It's especially weird since i reckon an average American has about as much exposure to the French as we get to the Orlesians.

And i repeat -- "most of the Orlesians we've met" make what, 2-4 people total? Hardly a sample to base anything but prejudices on...

[DRTJR]

I count twenty +
So far the only "Good" Orlisians we've met are Stroud and the de Launcets. Not a good batch of people.

Meet the Orliaians here: http://dragonage.wik...egory:Orlesians

[devilsgrin]

DRTJR wrote...

I count twenty +
So far the only "Good" Orlisians we've met are Stroud and the de Launcets. Not a good batch of people.

Meet the Orliaians here: http://dragonage.wik...egory:Orlesians

i quite liked Riordan as well...

although funnily enough he's another of those "Fereldan's raised in Orlais" like Leliana - but in no way are either of them Fereldan. They're Orlesian to the bone. oh, and i despise Leliana. i actually quite liked Marjolaine too... anyone who dislikes Marjorlaine but likes Isabela is something of a hypocrit - Marjolaine is simply better at getting others to do her dirty work than Isabele. 


templars = slaves? 

To an extent they're restricted so as to keep their lyrium supply up. 
But i challenge the claim that leaving the order could kill you due to Lyrium withdrawals. with Samson as the only example of an ex-templar. Considering when he claims "it nearly killed him" he's quite clearly exaggerating, hoping that a) Hawke might give him money for his fix, and trying to justify sending Feynriel to a rumoured slave-trading ship captain.
Like any drug addict, of course a Templar going without his regular Fix of Lyrium is going to feel like they're dying, along with WANTING to die so as not to feel the pain of the craving any longer. Many realworld people give up incredibly addictive drugs - and even the most "clean" person must always fear the cravings. Samson, as a weak person, is a weak example to use to justify "they're slaves cos if they leave they'll die from the lyrium withdrawals".
Considering also they get paid, which enables them to support their families (see Keran), and even have families of their own (see Wesley), in spite of the addiction, they are still free to live and act, whilst being bound to their vows.
Clearly we see very different types of Templar in Kirkwall from those we see at the Tower in Ferelden. In Ferelden we see - largely - the very best of what the Templar order represents. Greagoir is very nearly exactly what a Knight Commander should be. He works with Irving to keep the Circle and Templars working together as smoothly as possible. They're eternally vigilant still, but they actually do the job they're meant to. In Kirkwall, with Meredith, we see the complete opposite. I hypothesise that perhaps it was teh combination of both The Idol and the Lyrium Addiction that made Meredith as bat-sh..-crazy as she ended up. Her OWN actions are evidence of the Templars not being slaves. She acts with unchallenged authority - IN her role, and OUTSIDE it. Ruling a city is anything BUT what she's meant to. A Slave would never do the things she does. Since she is not only acting against her vows, but evidently against the will of the Divines... they WANT Mages, Mages are an invaluable tool, and the single most powerful weapon in Thedas is a mage unleashed. The Templars are their leash.

Oh and Lastly. Orlais sounds like EXACTLY the sort of setting i'd most like to see in DA3 or later addition (only Seheron (not Par Vollen) or Tevinter interest me as much). The intrigue, the extravagance, the unrelenting arrogance, tempered by an artistic side that supports and feeds the arrogance. The Divine, and the Chantry in general need to go ... SO TOTALLY it shouldn't even be an argument, just a general concensus... The Grand Cathedral tho should stay. As much as realworld religions by and large should go the way the Chantry needs to... the buildings are some of the greatest works of art EVER CREATED. to destroy them would be to devalue to the unmatched artistic and architectural achievements that these structures are.

Modifié par devilsgrin, 10 juillet 2011 - 11:53 .

[Marduksdragon]

devilsgrin wrote...

DRTJR wrote...

I count twenty +
So far the only "Good" Orlisians we've met are Stroud and the de Launcets. Not a good batch of people.

Meet the Orliaians here: http://dragonage.wik...egory:Orlesians

i quite liked Riordan as well...

although funnily enough he's another of those "Fereldan's raised in Orlais" like Leliana - but in no way are either of them Fereldan. They're Orlesian to the bone. oh, and i despise Leliana. i actually quite liked Marjolaine too... anyone who dislikes Marjorlaine but likes Isabela is something of a hypocrit - Marjolaine is simply better at getting others to do her dirty work than Isabele. 


templars = slaves? 

To an extent they're restricted so as to keep their lyrium supply up. 
But i challenge the claim that leaving the order could kill you due to Lyrium withdrawals. with Samson as the only example of an ex-templar. Considering when he claims "it nearly killed him" he's quite clearly exaggerating, hoping that a) Hawke might give him money for his fix, and trying to justify sending Feynriel to a rumoured slave-trading ship captain.
Like any drug addict, of course a Templar going without his regular Fix of Lyrium is going to feel like they're dying, along with WANTING to die so as not to feel the pain of the craving any longer. Many realworld people give up incredibly addictive drugs - and even the most "clean" person must always fear the cravings. Samson, as a weak person, is a weak example to use to justify "they're slaves cos if they leave they'll die from the lyrium withdrawals".
Considering also they get paid, which enables them to support their families (see Keran), and even have families of their own (see Wesley), in spite of the addiction, they are still free to live and act, whilst being bound to their vows.
Clearly we see very different types of Templar in Kirkwall from those we see at the Tower in Ferelden. In Ferelden we see - largely - the very best of what the Templar order represents. Greagoir is very nearly exactly what a Knight Commander should be. He works with Irving to keep the Circle and Templars working together as smoothly as possible. They're eternally vigilant still, but they actually do the job they're meant to. In Kirkwall, with Meredith, we see the complete opposite. I hypothesise that perhaps it was teh combination of both The Idol and the Lyrium Addiction that made Meredith as bat-sh..-crazy as she ended up. Her OWN actions are evidence of the Templars not being slaves. She acts with unchallenged authority - IN her role, and OUTSIDE it. Ruling a city is anything BUT what she's meant to. A Slave would never do the things she does. Since she is not only acting against her vows, but evidently against the will of the Divines... they WANT Mages, Mages are an invaluable tool, and the single most powerful weapon in Thedas is a mage unleashed. The Templars are their leash.

Oh and Lastly. Orlais sounds like EXACTLY the sort of setting i'd most like to see in DA3 or later addition (only Seheron (not Par Vollen) or Tevinter interest me as much). The intrigue, the extravagance, the unrelenting arrogance, tempered by an artistic side that supports and feeds the arrogance. The Divine, and the Chantry in general need to go ... SO TOTALLY it shouldn't even be an argument, just a general concensus... The Grand Cathedral tho should stay. As much as realworld religions by and large should go the way the Chantry needs to... the buildings are some of the greatest works of art EVER CREATED. to destroy them would be to devalue to the unmatched artistic and architectural achievements that these structures are.

We don't know why the Templars rebelled and Varric only mentions mage hunting to Cassandra after mentioning the Seekers. I think that's worded carefully so that in the next game some of us will be surprised to see the Templars actively attacking the Chantry as well-- even if they and the mages will probably skirmish until they settle their differences (if given the opportunity). It would be a great way to start the campaign into Orlais and get everyone on the same page for a new game without having to make two games.

Lyrium--- We know that lyrium poisoning is miserable because of the references to it in the dwarven market, and by the priests in Denerim. We also know withdrawal drives men to their deaths--- the templar in Howe's basement. He refused to go back, even refused to go with his sister. He would rather die in that cell alone than go anywhere near the Chantry or his family (even if you pick the dialogue that mentions his sister)--- if it doesn't cause them directly (Dwarven Market-- couple other places mention what happens when someone exposed to lyrium doesn't get any more, and they mention humans specifically in the market-- it's also said that continual poisoning does the same thing). Many people in the real world also die from withdrawal. If you ever need to physically see it there are some episodes of Intervention where the people die because their bodies have become so weakened by the substance abuse that they can't function when the drugs are removed. I actually consider Samson very strong in that he continues to help the mages despite what's happened to him because of it and it takes something truly horrific to make him turn away from that.

The Templars are the jailors of the mages, but the Chantry (through the lyrium) is the jailor of the Templars. When you'd rather die than be taken back to the Chantry, that's a pretty big statement from DAO.

Many slave throughout history were allowed to marry or were paid. Some were even given homes to live in and something like autonomy, like Serfs who were owned by the person who owned the land they lived on. It didn't change the fact that at the end of the day they were on leashes of one manner or another and had very little in the way of rights, worked for and could be killed at whim (among other things) by the person holding those leashes.

The Orlesian Chantry doctrine is as poisonous to both mage and Templar. To the mages it subjugates, it tells them they are inferior by birth and poisoned. To the Templars it tells them that they righteous at all times so long as they obey their orders-- in many cases this is the only power these men have ever had (poor, etc). When confronted with a situation that flies in the face of that, because of his conditioning, a Templar is going to mistakenly cling to the idea that he's always right so long as he follows orders because the realization of his situation if he's not right is mind-breakingly horrible. Imagine if all the Templars who aren't people like Alrik or Karras realized that they were in the wrong (heck, look at Cullen and his men-- they realized they were wrong and even if you were slaughtering Templars up to the confrontation, they will attack Meredith and risk rebel Hawke killing them as well to make it right). Then imagine that the next realization is that they were bound by the lyrium and because the Chantry controls the lyrium trade they'd always have to come back in some manner or other to get their 'dope'-- which means following the Chantry's orders if they want their dope or dying. Without the insulation provided by the Chantry's lies there's going to be men comitting suicide left and right in that scenario-- unless someone gives them an outlet to get their lyrium and shoot the finger at the Chantry at the same time (which I hope to do in my playthrough-- my Hawke hurts for the mages and is one, but freeing the Templar army from the Divine so she couldn't do anything to Ferelden or the rest of the mages was high in her mind). It's not fair to hold these men to an impossible standard of rightness anymore than it's fair to hold the mages to an impossible standard of wrongness.

People go mad with freedom though (especially if it comes with power), in Meredith's case. She was able to do whatever she wanted without being ordered around and Elthina did nothing to reign her in (or maybe she did restrict her lyrium and Meredith started swilling idol lyrium to make up for it). In fact, it may have been the first time that'd happened (which would explain why she was so... explosive, even in act 1 some of the Templars indicate they're afraid of her-- it's just that the number grows as time goes on). Elthina needed to die, even though I do understand why she was sitting on her hands (being threatened with an Exhaulted March). Though a charming lady, she was inept as a Grand Cleric and everyone who required her intercession suffered for it. I would have preferred Anders charge into the Chantry, blasting Templars back left and right, picked up Elthina and thrown her through a window (Yes, I prefer defenstration and falls to kill rotten clergy... it just seems so appropriate) to her death--- maybe landing at Meredith's feet as she charged up there. Blowing up the entire building is like carpet bombing an objective when a sniper could take care of it better. Because Anders is crazed by Vengeance, we could handwave it, but I think there was more in that building than just Elthina that he was getting rid of. It could have been phylacteries, the lyrium supply for the Templars, or something having to do with Kirkwall's glyphs that Vengeance understood and Anders didn't (Vengeance is a spirit, I give him liscense to know stuff Anders may not be aware of).

On Meredith's sword-- I'm really surprised the idol got made into a sword (and I still don't understand how it could be forged by Tranquils or Dwarves without it driving everyone insane with the singing and those ongoing riots being a big topic of discussion) and didn't end up ground up and swimming in Meredith's stomach as her own private stash of lyrium. That would be less epic than Varric's tall tale with the glowing sword of doom, but more believable--- and she may have indeed, with all that ingestion, become the lyrium idol at the end of the fight (or maybe even have been at a partial state of transformation-- thus showing everyone what she'd been doing). Now even postulating that, I wish it was what had been shown in the story because that sounds so much more cool than the evil sword deal.

I totally want to go to Orlais and wreck them for the elves, the Chantry and all it's evils, all the stuff that happened in Ferelden-- even that little perfumer that was raped by the Chevaliers in Denerim's market... augh so much anger at them. I hope I get to pick up Loghain while I'm there and we'll have a party after I boot the Divine out a high window and watch her splatter on the pavement. It will start something like this:

"I was right about those Orlesians, wasn't I?"
"Totally, Loghain."
*brofist*

[Rifneno]

The problem is we've only had contact with important Orlesians. 99% of Orlais has no reason to leave the country, nor the financial means. We mostly get nobles, who are generally bastards no matter where they're from, and high ranking members of bastard organizations like Leliana. I'm with you on hating that two-faced skank, though I think Marjolaine/Isabela is a poor comparison. Marjolaine has no loyalty to anyone but herself. Isabela is hardly a role model but she has some sense of loyalty at least.

[Marduksdragon]

Rifneno wrote...

The problem is we've only had contact with important Orlesians. 99% of Orlais has no reason to leave the country, nor the financial means. We mostly get nobles, who are generally bastards no matter where they're from, and high ranking members of bastard organizations like Leliana. I'm with you on hating that two-faced skank, though I think Marjolaine/Isabela is a poor comparison. Marjolaine has no loyalty to anyone but herself. Isabela is hardly a role model but she has some sense of loyalty at least.

Non-noble Orlesians we've met (outside Grey Wardens) that have pages on the wiki:

http://dragonage.wik...om/wiki/Liselle
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Erlina
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Hubert
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Reiner < and this one is an Orlesian commoner and a Slaver
http://dragonage.wik.../Varian_Ilithis <Orlesian commoner and Slaver
http://dragonage.wik...iki/Jovi_Merice

Of all these people, they either represent their country badly or (like Liselle and Jovi) are crushed by it. Erlina is the only real questionmark in my head because we were never actually confirmed on whether she was or wasn't a bard (and I wouldn't trust Eamon as far as I could throw him).

[devilsgrin]

Rifneno wrote...

The problem is we've only had contact with important Orlesians. 99% of Orlais has no reason to leave the country, nor the financial means. We mostly get nobles, who are generally bastards no matter where they're from, and high ranking members of bastard organizations like Leliana. I'm with you on hating that two-faced skank, though I think Marjolaine/Isabela is a poor comparison. Marjolaine has no loyalty to anyone but herself. Isabela is hardly a role model but she has some sense of loyalty at least.

fair enough, they may be a poor comparison. but they do share quite a few personality traits - including their inclinations towards other women Isabela seems to only learn that loyalty through Hawke... but thats debatable.

[devilsgrin]

I totally want to go to Orlais and wreck them for the elves, the Chantry and all it's evils, all the stuff that happened in Ferelden-- even that little perfumer that was raped by the Chevaliers in Denerim's market... augh so much anger at them. I hope I get to pick up Loghain while I'm there and we'll have a party after I boot the Divine out a high window and watch her splatter on the pavement. It will start something like this:


So long as you do all this without ruining the art and the buildings i'm quite happy to help you along.

In defence of the Orlesians, they have been raised to believe that their country is the greatest, most magnificent and most entitled nation in all of Thedas. In large part through their military power, which in Thedas itself, in unmatched by any single nation. But mostly, i believe, through their's being the seat of the Chantry. They can't help thinking they're better. They've spent their entire lives being told they are. Who wouldn't believe it to be true. Especially in comparison to Fereldan Barbarians (i like them, but they ARE barbarians), and elven trash (city elves usually ARE, and I LOVE elves - even the city elves - best Origin by far (except maybe Mage, but i'm digressing)).
Loghain would not survive our campaign to Orlais, i'm afraid... I'd totally dispose of him on the way. Reprehensible excuse for a human being. HE SOLD ELVES INTO SLAVERY!!! not to mention all the other atrocities he committed in less than a year.

[Marduksdragon]

devilsgrin wrote...


I totally want to go to Orlais and wreck them for the elves, the Chantry and all it's evils, all the stuff that happened in Ferelden-- even that little perfumer that was raped by the Chevaliers in Denerim's market... augh so much anger at them. I hope I get to pick up Loghain while I'm there and we'll have a party after I boot the Divine out a high window and watch her splatter on the pavement. It will start something like this:


So long as you do all this without ruining the art and the buildings i'm quite happy to help you along.

In defence of the Orlesians, they have been raised to believe that their country is the greatest, most magnificent and most entitled nation in all of Thedas. In large part through their military power, which in Thedas itself, in unmatched by any single nation. But mostly, i believe, through their's being the seat of the Chantry. They can't help thinking they're better. They've spent their entire lives being told they are. Who wouldn't believe it to be true. Especially in comparison to Fereldan Barbarians (i like them, but they ARE barbarians), and elven trash (city elves usually ARE, and I LOVE elves - even the city elves - best Origin by far (except maybe Mage, but i'm digressing)).
Loghain would not survive our campaign to Orlais, i'm afraid... I'd totally dispose of him on the way. Reprehensible excuse for a human being. HE SOLD ELVES INTO SLAVERY!!! not to mention all the other atrocities he committed in less than a year.

:PWe will try not to wreck your pretties (I certainly don't think building detonation is going to be necessary, but a fire or two might be inevitable). You may have to scrub blood or soot off some of them.

Yes, I don't doubt they believe that their chamberpots smell of roses in Orlais-- but they also destroy their own people (like Liselle) for saying or doing otherwise. Orlais as it stands really reminds me of the France we're exposed to through the works of the Marquise De Sade.

Howe was a mighty spindoctor, as far as the elven slavery. Loghain thinks of elves like he does everyone else-- people. He flirts lightly with the elven female wardens at Ostagar, and had his own unit of elven warriors during the rebellion--- We see this over and over again. I think Loghain believed those elves were going to die when the city was going to be attacked-- (he believed the alienage was indefensible and says as much) and it would have been a simple thing for Howe to spin selling men who were already "dead" to fund the war for the living. Howe was sick, or crazy, or just plain evil (I've heard good arguments based on in game dialogue for all three. I personally think he had syphillis because of the breakdown of his mind over a period of time and the fact that his lover in Amaranthine also suffers from the same symptoms.)--- and I'm glad he's dead. Far as Loghain, I honestly do like the character so... yeah, he usually lives. Al marries Anora, and Loghain charges into combat at my Warden's side.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 10 juillet 2011 - 03:17 .

[devilsgrin]

Marduksdragon wrote...

devilsgrin wrote...


I totally want to go to Orlais and wreck them for the elves, the Chantry and all it's evils, all the stuff that happened in Ferelden-- even that little perfumer that was raped by the Chevaliers in Denerim's market... augh so much anger at them. I hope I get to pick up Loghain while I'm there and we'll have a party after I boot the Divine out a high window and watch her splatter on the pavement. It will start something like this:


So long as you do all this without ruining the art and the buildings i'm quite happy to help you along.

In defence of the Orlesians, they have been raised to believe that their country is the greatest, most magnificent and most entitled nation in all of Thedas. In large part through their military power, which in Thedas itself, in unmatched by any single nation. But mostly, i believe, through their's being the seat of the Chantry. They can't help thinking they're better. They've spent their entire lives being told they are. Who wouldn't believe it to be true. Especially in comparison to Fereldan Barbarians (i like them, but they ARE barbarians), and elven trash (city elves usually ARE, and I LOVE elves - even the city elves - best Origin by far (except maybe Mage, but i'm digressing)).
Loghain would not survive our campaign to Orlais, i'm afraid... I'd totally dispose of him on the way. Reprehensible excuse for a human being. HE SOLD ELVES INTO SLAVERY!!! not to mention all the other atrocities he committed in less than a year.

:PWe will try not to wreck your pretties (I certainly don't think building detonation is going to be necessary, but a fire or two might be inevitable). You may have to scrub blood or soot off some of them.

Yes, I don't doubt they believe that their chamberpots smell of roses in Orlais-- but they also destroy their own people (like Liselle) for saying or doing otherwise. Orlais as it stands really reminds me of the France we're exposed to through the works of the Marquise De Sade.

Howe was a mighty spindoctor, as far as the elven slavery. Loghain thinks of elves like he does everyone else-- people. He flirts lightly with the elven female wardens at Ostagar, and had his own unit of elven warriors during the rebellion--- We see this over and over again. I think Loghain believed those elves were going to die when the city was going to be attacked-- (he believed the alienage was indefensible and says as much) and it would have been a simple thing for Howe to spin selling men who were already "dead" to fund the war for the living. Howe was sick, or crazy, or just plain evil (I've heard good arguments based on in game dialogue for all three. I personally think he had syphillis because of the breakdown of his mind over a period of time and the fact that his lover in Amaranthine also suffers from the same symptoms.)--- and I'm glad he's dead. Far as Loghain, I honestly do like the character so... yeah, he usually lives. Al marries Anora, and Loghain charges into combat at my Warden's side.

I can handle a bit of elbow grease to get the pretties back in shiny order. 
Orlais reminds me of EVERY dominant civilisation humanity has ever produced to be honest. Both in the past, and today. 

Its nice to try and blame Howe... but as twisted as he was, if not for Loghain's own insanity, he would NEVER has succeeded in his plans. Most especially not the Couslands - the strongest claimants for the Throne should Cailan die (Highever being clearly the more powerful Teyrnyr of the two remaining - Gwaren was a nothing town gifted to its saviour with a pretty title afterall, Highever is a rich city by all accounts). 
Loghain's life was horrendous - but he certainly never tried to make the lives of others better - that was incidental to his revenge. From the two books, he never came across as less than icily cold to everyone save Rowan, and for parts of Stolen Throne, Marric. And what he goads his king into doing to the woman Marric was madly in love with... horrendous. 
He's a brutal know-it-all. And any person with his personality and I could never coexist. The ends never justify the means. Killing is the easiest choice. 

Modifié par devilsgrin, 10 juillet 2011 - 03:29 .