127 réponses à ce sujet

[Marduksdragon]

I'm not trying, I'm actively blaming Howe (and the faults in Loghain he exploited). I don't think Loghain was insane so much as angry, suspicious and desperate. When you combine that with a pragmatic personality and a master manipulator like Howe... recipe for trouble. I don't think Loghain would have made a good king, no, but he is a good soldier and (I think, at least) a flawed but fine man. He doesn't know it all (and knows this himself, being confronted with his errors and later in party conversation that becomes very apparent), he just makes the best decisions he can based on the information he has and has -throughout his life- been forced to make decisions that no one else dared to.

Katriel was a plant. I would have killed her too. The fact he goaded Maric into doing it was as much an act of strength on Maric's part as it was a test for him on Loghain's. Being King (especially in a medieval society-- I just read a really good essay on that, btw. Being a leader back then was so much more than just being a figurehead.) means you can't be a normal person. You have to make the hard decisions, even if your heart sometimes would rather you not.

I think somewhere between idealism and pragmatism is how people should operate-- so there's room for people like Alistair and Loghain in my circle of friends. Sometimes the ends justify the means, sometimes they don't--- not all situations are the same nor are the expected consequences. Killing is sometimes the hardest thing to do.

[tmp7704]

DRTJR wrote...

I count twenty +
So far the only "Good" Orlisians we've met are Stroud and the de Launcets. Not a good batch of people.

Meet the Orliaians here: http://dragonage.wik...egory:Orlesians

Lot of these are characters who either get just a mention in the game or entry in the Codex. We know pretty much nothing about what they're like since we don't meet them.

[DRTJR]

devilsgrin wrote...
In defence of the Orlesians, they have been raised to believe that their country is the greatest, most magnificent and most entitled nation in all of Thedas. In large part through their military power, which in Thedas itself, in unmatched by any single nation.

the Tevinter Imperium and the Qunari both feild better and larger armies, they just throw them at each other

[Marduksdragon]

tmp7704 wrote...

DRTJR wrote...

I count twenty +
So far the only "Good" Orlisians we've met are Stroud and the de Launcets. Not a good batch of people.

Meet the Orliaians here: http://dragonage.wik...egory:Orlesians

Lot of these are characters who either get just a mention in the game or entry in the Codex. We know pretty much nothing about what they're like since we don't meet them.

Marduksdragon wrote...
Unless this is ever shown as radically different I will treat
them as I treat most people from Tevinter and the Qunari in general--
with suspicion.

From what I have seen from the codex, gameplay, etc--- I stand by my estimation until I see differently. We know the Orlesians mostly by what they've done to other people (outside the NPCs)--- and most of that is inexecusable. The mages, the elves, the Fereldans, their own Templars, they abandoned the Tevinter people to the Qunari after signing a treaty.... how long does the list of crimes have to be before we make a guess as to the nature of the country? Is every Orlesian a depraved monster? No. I would never say that. Look at the ones who aren't-- like the perfumer-- she had to flee Orlais to be safe from rape by Chevaliers. I'm sure when we show up in Orlais there's going to be an underground resistance to this of some kind to ally with. These people will probably be mostly good in that they want people to stop thinking it's okay for nobles to beat people to death for amusement and rape people in the streets. I don't want to kill those freedom fighters. I do want to kill most of the people who are in charge of the country though.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 10 juillet 2011 - 06:56 .

[tmp7704]

Marduksdragon wrote...

From what I have seen from the codex, gameplay, etc--- I stand by my estimation until I see differently. We know the Orlesians mostly by what they've done to other people (outside the NPCs)--- and most of that is inexecusable.

As long as you ignore characters like Riordan, Stroud, Tug, Sketch, Merice, DuPuis family etc since they don't fit the preconceived picture, sure.

(granted couple of these aren't born Orlesian, but spend enough lifetime to appear as such)

Modifié par tmp7704, 10 juillet 2011 - 07:13 .

[DRTJR]

tmp7704 wrote...

Marduksdragon wrote...

From what I have seen from the codex, gameplay, etc--- I stand by my estimation until I see differently. We know the Orlesians mostly by what they've done to other people (outside the NPCs)--- and most of that is inexecusable.

As long as you ignore characters like Riordan, Stroud, Tug, Sketch, Merice, DuPuis family etc since they don't fit the preconceived picture, sure.

Riordan and, Stroud where both Wardens so theve been exposed to the rest of Thedas, Didn't play Leliana's song, and the DuPuis' left for a reason.

[Marduksdragon]

@tmp7704
Did you read the rest of my post or just stop there? They're not all depraved, I said that myself -- it just seems that by and large, large groups of them do depraved things to other countries and themselves and that disturbs me. If my first reaction to the word "Orlesian" is "grrr", then lying and saying it's not is stupid. Do I automatically treat them like dirt? No. I even say that in the very first post in this thread-- I treat them with suspicion just like the Qunari--- because their reputation precedes them.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 10 juillet 2011 - 07:17 .

[tmp7704]

DRTJR wrote...

Riordan and, Stroud where both Wardens so theve been exposed to the rest of Thedas

So? The Orlesians you meet in the game and give as reason why all Orlesians are to be hated were also exposed to the rest of Thedas, given you meet them outside of Orlais.

[tmp7704]

Marduksdragon wrote...

Do I automatically treat them like dirt? No. I even say that in the very first post in this thread-- I treat them with suspicion just like the Qunari--- because their reputation precedes them.

First, let me assert that I hate the Orlesian Chantry as much as I hate the Orlesians in general.

that's a funny way of saying "i treat them with suspicion".

[Marduksdragon]

tmp7704 wrote...

DRTJR wrote...

Riordan and, Stroud where both Wardens so theve been exposed to the rest of Thedas

So? The Orlesians you meet in the game and give as reason why all Orlesians are to be hated were also exposed to the rest of Thedas, given you meet them outside of Orlais.

And several of them say they left Orlais because of the conditions there being so awful.

[Marduksdragon]

tmp7704 wrote...

Marduksdragon wrote...

Do I automatically treat them like dirt? No. I even say that in the very first post in this thread-- I treat them with suspicion just like the Qunari--- because their reputation precedes them.

First, let me assert that I hate the Orlesian Chantry as much as I hate the Orlesians in general.

that's a funny way of saying "i treat them with suspicion".

Just because I hate them doesn't mean I need to kill them all with spoons. I can hate them quietly and be polite and treat them with suspicion.


Edit: (to kinda keep this on topic) I still say the White Divine needs to get booted out a window.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 10 juillet 2011 - 07:26 .

[tmp7704]

Marduksdragon wrote...

Just because I hate them doesn't mean I need to kill them all with spoons. I can hate them quietly and be polite and treat them with suspicion.

I... don't think these words mean what you think they mean. It doesn't matter whether you hate quietly (and announcing it as first thing in your OP is hardly being quiet about it) Hate is a feeling towards the target that goes way beyond "treating with suspicion" and saying you feel one definitely doesn't equal saying you feel the other.

[Ryzaki]

tmp7704 wrote...

Marduksdragon wrote...

Just because I hate them doesn't mean I need to kill them all with spoons. I can hate them quietly and be polite and treat them with suspicion.

I... don't think these words mean what you think they mean. It doesn't matter whether you hate quietly (and announcing it as first thing in your OP is hardly being quiet about it) Hate is a feeling towards the target that goes way beyond "treating with suspicion" and saying you feel one definitely doesn't equal saying you feel the other.

Yeah the word for that is more like dislike. 

[Marduksdragon]

tmp7704 wrote...

Marduksdragon wrote...

Just because I hate them doesn't mean I need to kill them all with spoons. I can hate them quietly and be polite and treat them with suspicion.

I... don't think these words mean what you think they mean. It doesn't matter whether you hate quietly (and announcing it as first thing in your OP is hardly being quiet about it) Hate is a feeling towards the target that goes way beyond "treating with suspicion" and saying you feel one definitely doesn't equal saying you feel the other.

My first reaction to Orlesians is irritation. Do you want me to lie and say it's not? I am immediately reminded of everything I've read, seen and heard regarding their country and it's an irrational abiding feeling. I label it hate because it does sway me sometimes to be disfavorable or uncharitable towards them, and thus goes beyond simple irritation. I annouced it at the beginning of this thread because people have accused me of being a suckup to the Orlesian Chantry and I wanted to make very clear that I separate the Templars from the Chantry that controls them and have a strong dislike towards Orlesians. I am, however, open minded enough to realize that people like Liselle must be in even greater number in Orlais and I feel for them. I respect people like Stroud-- but then Wardens have no country. I summed it up with "I treat them with suspicion" because that's how I act, regardless of the way I feel. Haven't you, for the sake of peace and or justice, ever put a stopper on your own feelings because you knew them to be irrational?

Edit:  Also, I can't believe we're arguing the semantics of my feelings.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 10 juillet 2011 - 07:44 .

[tmp7704]

Marduksdragon wrote...

My first reaction to Orlesians is irritation. Do you want me to lie and say it's not?

No, absolutely. It's just knowing you have this view on the nation based on just few samples we get to meet does colour the OP somewhat -- since it shows you're quick to jump to conclusions and, in this thread, you're jumping to these conclusions about a nation you state to very strongly dislike. Wouldn't you agree that knowing this can make one sceptical about the accuracy of your judgement..?

[Marduksdragon]

tmp7704 wrote...

Marduksdragon wrote...

My first reaction to Orlesians is irritation. Do you want me to lie and say it's not?

No, absolutely. It's just knowing you have this view on the nation based on just few samples we get to meet does colour the OP somewhat -- since it shows you're quick to jump to conclusions and, in this thread, you're jumping to these conclusions about a nation you state to very strongly dislike. Wouldn't you agree that knowing this can make one sceptical about the accuracy of your judgement..?

Not unless you count being human against me. I have more than enough facts to base my judgement on in the case of the Templars. I haven't seen anyone argue against those conclusively yet. I've also shown, just now, that despite my feelings I strive to be objective because I wish to be fair. You're attemping to invalidate the worth of my argument based on my feelings (and, edit, feelings that I admit to being watchful over myself) about something else-- which is terrible ad hominem.

Also, hate is a very short word for that huge explanation for my feelings about Orlais (which I seriously doubt most people care about if they only came here for my look at the Templars).

Edit: For the viewers at home who may not know what ad hominem means- http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Ad_hominem .

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 10 juillet 2011 - 08:28 .

[DRTJR]

The Divine did call exalted marches on Tevinter and the dales because they decided to Not follow the white divine.

[Herr Uhl]

DRTJR wrote...

The Divine did call exalted marches on Tevinter and the dales because they decided to Not follow the white divine.

Well, Tevinter we can say that about. But that is due to that Tevinter was reverting to the very thing that Andraste fought to get rid of.

Which that was the agressor in the war with the dales is more muddy, and the reason as to why it started as well.

[DRTJR]

I'd Guess the Chantry made the first move because they removed ALL RE FENCES TO ELVES in the chant of light.

[Herr Uhl]

DRTJR wrote...

I'd Guess the Chantry made the first move because they removed ALL RE FENCES TO ELVES in the chant of light.

When were they removed? And why would the elves even care?

I can say that the elves made the first move by simply standing by and watching human settlements die during the blight without doing anything to help. There were tensions between humans and elves long before the marches.

Edit: My point being, there were more factors than religion.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 10 juillet 2011 - 08:24 .

[The Baconer]

Marduksdragon wrote...
Baconer, at least your trolling made me laugh.

I was only half-trolling.

[Marduksdragon]

The Baconer wrote...

Marduksdragon wrote...
Baconer, at least your trolling made me laugh.

I was only half-trolling.

Still, you did make me laugh and I was in need of one at that moment.

[DRTJR]

The removed the Chantical of Shartan (the Elf who faught with Andraste against Tevinter) during the exalted march on the Dales. it is now Hericy to speak openly of Shartan

From the codex
It is heresy today to speak of Shartan, an elven slave that rose up against his Tevinter masters to help Andraste's barbarian invasion.
It seems most people would prefer to believe that Andraste crossed the Waking Sea with little more than a basket of flowers and songs of peace and harmony. The truth is that she came with a horde of warriors at her back, and that without a rebellion occurring behind the enemy lines it's very possible that the holy invasion could have been foiled.
Shartan was a slave who became a fabled warrior and later a devotee of Andraste herself, and we know this because the Canticle of Shartan spoke of their meeting on the Valarian Fields. Andraste gave him a mystic blade that he called Glandivalis (translation unknown) and he even fought at Maferath's side. But now the Canticle is one of the Dissonant Verses, and has been ever since the Exalted March of the Dales.

It seems we don't wish to speak of elven heroes or the role they played in Andraste's war any more than we wish to speak of barbarians or the bloody death toll that accompanied the war. With each passing age, heroes like Shartan become more of a fable, but some of us will always know the truth.

—From The Dissonant Verses by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar, 9:25 Dragon

[tmp7704]

Marduksdragon wrote...

Not unless you count being human against me.

I don't count it against you, i count it against the argument you make. It makes that point about ad hominem somewhat ironic. While at it, ad hominem can be actually relevant to the issue and a valid argument in some instances -- when someone advocates a person should be kicked out of a window and you know they hate said person, it's only logical to question to what degree that stance is dictated by reason as opposed to their feelings.

Also, hate is a very short word for that huge explanation for my feelings about Orlais (which I seriously doubt most people care about if they only came here for my look at the Templars).

Short words can be used for huge and even complicated feelings just fine. For another example see: love.  And let's not forget it was you who'd decided to describe your own feelings as "hate" in the first place, not me.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Chantry had to make the Canticle of Shartan heretical to justify an Exalted March on the Dales. The Exalted Marches are suppsoed to be holy, and thus it would look bad for a holy war to be waged against a people who was granted their land, by the very "god" you worship. It is all very political, and not a lot of actual religion, is involved in this act.

On topic: Templars aren't slaves since they submit to the trainning and lyrium willingly, and they can quit whenever they want. Hence "slave" does not fit their situation.