135 réponses à ce sujet

[ThePwener]

Great posts everyone.... great posts.

[whywhywhywhy]

I think because it's not apparent if the Asari are consistently and diligently searching for a cure. Morinth and any other like her are correct in their desire for freedom and to live. I can't imagine being told I'd have to live in a monestary for over 1000 years or die I'd do the same thing. The problem is we aren't told how the Asari handles the Ardat-Yakshi, are they taught how to cope or written off as hopeless ? Are they encourage or looked at with disdain ? We know that only pureblood Asari can create them and the term pureblood is derogatory. A pureblood relationship is looked down upon, I can't imagine the Ardat-yakshi being viewed much better.

Given all of that I can't say it's wrong to save one, however any blood shed by them afterwards would be on your hands.

[TheShogunOfHarlem]

ThePwener wrote...

You need a high score to be able to fight Morinth's.... "mind control???" so you can make the choice.

But that's the thing. I've never had that choice limited for me in that respect. Is that an issue for people who didn't import from ME1?

[ThePwener]

TheShogunOfHarlem wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

You need a high score to be able to fight Morinth's.... "mind control???" so you can make the choice.

But that's the thing. I've never had that choice limited for me in that respect. Is that an issue for people who didn't import from ME1?

And for people who start lots of NG+ (me) but I use the Paragon/Renegade glitch to max out both bars at the start of the game.

[DJGU]

is any one wondering what her role will be in ME3

[pablodurando]

ThePwener wrote...

Great posts everyone.... great posts.

I know this is a little late...but you're still an idiot.

[LOLandStuff]

D.Kain wrote...

LOLandStuff wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Lol. That's actually one of the only reasons to pick her. It might be evil and selfish to pick Morinth, but you can trust her more than the majority of your squad, if not all of it.

The mind boggles.

Morinth is not tied by relationships with other people and society norms, which means that she doesn't care what Shepard does, and that she won't abandon him in any situation, since she is bound to him with gratefulness, lust and search for danger. 

Are you serious? Oh, I get it. You've been brainwashed by Morinth. Gratefulness, huh? I'm sure it leaks out of her.

[SkittlesKat96]

 I reckon in ME 3 if you saved Morinth you will come across her and find out she has killed heaps and heaps of innocent people and you get a second chance to kill her or something.

EDIT: Maybe though you can get her help (somehow) against the Reapers or in leveraging an important person/species to help you or something. She could possibly tie into the main plot somehow.

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 02 août 2011 - 08:52 .

[Jonttu1]

whywhywhywhy wrote...

I think because it's not apparent if the Asari are consistently and diligently searching for a cure. Morinth and any other like her are correct in their desire for freedom and to live. I can't imagine being told I'd have to live in a monestary for over 1000 years or die I'd do the same thing. The problem is we aren't told how the Asari handles the Ardat-Yakshi, are they taught how to cope or written off as hopeless ? Are they encourage or looked at with disdain ? We know that only pureblood Asari can create them and the term pureblood is derogatory. A pureblood relationship is looked down upon, I can't imagine the Ardat-yakshi being viewed much better.

Given all of that I can't say it's wrong to save one, however any blood shed by them afterwards would be on your hands.

Saving an Ardat-Yakshi who has done nothing to deserve being killed or 1000 years of imprisonment is the right thing to do in my opinion. But saving one that has been terrorising the galaxy for 400 years, murdering innocents just to get her sick kicks out of it, is nothing less than insane and evil. Yeah Samara isn't really the image of true justice and the Justicars black and white view of the world isn't the most sane one either, but Morinth deserved to die. Yeah maybe she didn't deserve being an Ardat-Yakshi in the first place, and I could sympathise with her choice to escape, I would have done that too. But she crossed the line when she started murdering people. She made her choice, knowing that she would be hunted for it and she got what was coming to her.
Oh and there's nothing to say that Ardat-Yakshis can't be created from interspecies relationships, as far as I know they are just more common in pureblood offspring .

Some people here seem to think that Morinth is honestly loyal to Shepard or more so than Samara. Where do you get this idea? Samara is bound by her code. She is bound to help Shepard stop the reapers. She MIGHT try to kill a renegade shepard  later, but that's after the galaxy has been saved from annihilation. And after that Shepard is a galactic hero. She tries to kill him, I'm sure she'll get shot before she can say "Goddess". Morinth is a sociopathic serial killer, who doesn't care about anything or anyone besides her and her sick pleasures. I'm 100% sure she knows that she'll kill shepard when they meld but she still does it knowing that Shepard is the only hope the galaxy has against the Reapers. The only reason she agrees to following Shepard is because he's the ultimate prey, and she can't resist the temptation of attempting to consume him.

Modifié par Jonttu1, 02 août 2011 - 11:00 .

[Goneaviking]

ThePwener wrote...

pablodurando wrote...

Yes there is.

And that's the kind of (dumb) ideals what disappoints me in these forums. I've had this discussion so many times. Tell the same dilemma to someone outside of the internet who knows nothing of Mass Effect and you'll see how quickly they'll say "What is wrong with you? That's sick".

I won't even bother with this thread. So much blind ignorance.

It's the part about the ignorance being blind that I disagree with in this post. People seem to be fully aware that she gets her jollies out of murdering people, but are simply willing to rationalise it away because they like the character.

If I'm not mistaken pablodurando stated that one of the reasons he always goes with Morinth is that it's his way of giving Bioware the finger for shoving a hamfisted morality play into his game. I can kind of relate to that; by establishing that Morinth is a vicious murderer preying on the unsuspecting and the innocent they're pretty much saying "this girl is evil", and by making her recruitment possible only by murdering a team member on her loyalty mission they weren't subtle in saying "doing this is evil". 

So why make it an option at all if it's so heavily inked in black and white morality?

[whywhywhywhy]

Jonttu1 wrote...
Saving an Ardat-Yakshi who has done nothing to deserve being killed or 1000 years of imprisonment is the right thing to do in my opinion. But saving one that has been terrorising the galaxy for 400 years, murdering innocents just to get her sick kicks out of it, is nothing less than insane and evil. Yeah Samara isn't really the image of true justice and the Justicars black and white view of the world isn't the most sane one either, but Morinth deserved to die. Yeah maybe she didn't deserve being an Ardat-Yakshi in the first place, and I could sympathise with her choice to escape, I would have done that too. But she crossed the line when she started murdering people. She made her choice, knowing that she would be hunted for it and she got what was coming to her.
Oh and there's nothing to say that Ardat-Yakshis can't be created from interspecies relationships, as far as I know they are just more common in pureblood offspring.

I still blame the Asari.  Morinth was 40 when she ran off a Child by Asari standards.  A child that grows up effectively on her own and with little to no guidance, now given how addictive the act of sex is for her she grew up like a teenager drug addict.  If the Asari had better programs in place instead of sweeping it under the rug maybe she wouldn't have ran away.  Maybe she could have resisted tempation if she was taught to.  But everything we know seems to indicate they are just quarantined.  So I blame the Asari.

Jonttu1 wrote...
Some people here seem to think that Morinth is honestly loyal to Shepard or more so than Samara.

Samara's not lyal to you she's sworn to you.  You become good friend in the end but I don't think she's loyal to anything but the code.  Morinth however has shown loyalty to you by staying when she could have ran.  No matter what you say and despite her reasons for it she did stay and fight.  Now I don't want to turn this into a Morinth vs Samara issue I'm not looking at it like that I'm only looking at the individuals not which is better to save.

Jonttu1 wrote...
Where do you get this idea? Samara is bound by her code.

exactly.  Bound to code, loyal to noone.

Jonttu1 wrote...
She is bound to help Shepard stop the reapers. She MIGHT try to kill a renegade shepard  later, but that's after the galaxy has been saved from annihilation. And after that Shepard is a galactic hero. She tries to kill him, I'm sure she'll get shot before she can say "Goddess".

She'd kill any Shepard because of the code she might regret it much afterward but I think she's shown us she'd do it.  Things would go nuts if she tried but would you want to see a friend gunned down who was trying to kill you because of her code ?  As much as I like Samara I think she creates a situation if she's not bound.

Jonttu1 wrote...
Morinth is a sociopathic serial killer, who doesn't care about anything or anyone besides her and her sick pleasures. I'm 100% sure she knows that she'll kill shepard when they meld but she still does it knowing that Shepard is the only hope the galaxy has against the Reapers. The only reason she agrees to following Shepard is because he's the ultimate prey, and she can't resist the temptation of attempting to consume him.

A child forced to grow up on their own will be flawed.   Your right Morinth is all those things, only because noone has given her
the chance to become something else.

[Keatons]

whywhywhywhy wrote...

 I still blame the Asari.  Morinth was 40 when she ran off a Child by Asari standards.  A child that grows up effectively on her own and with little to no guidance, now given how addictive the act of sex is for her she grew up like a teenager drug addict.  If the Asari had better programs in place instead of sweeping it under the rug maybe she wouldn't have ran away.  Maybe she could have resisted tempation if she was taught to.  But everything we know seems to indicate they are just quarantined.  So I blame the Asari.

To be clear, the condition manifests 'on maturity', meaning that an Asari needs to be mature by Asari standards before it arises. As another Asari says 'I'm 60 and finally outy of my parents house', to paraphrase, meaning that she would be extremely close in asari terms to what humans would recognize as adulthood, and given how smart Morinth is supposed to be, it's not hard to reason she'd mature mentally faster than the average Asari. A long doesn't automatically mean a long childhood. But getting to the main point, the AY has been with the Asari since the beginning of their species, that gives them untold millienia to find either a cure of some better way to deal with it. Sometimes you simply have to admit that, like Joker, there are some conditions and diseases that simply can not be cured or fixed. The current situation could simply be the best solution of untold years of failed attempts and learning the hard way what other attempts lead to. Of course, without information, any guesses, yours or mine about how the Asari have come to the current decisions to handle the AY are speculation, I'll admit.

whywhywhywhy wrote...

A child forced to grow up on their own will be flawed.   Your right
Morinth is all those things, only because noone has given herthe chance to become something else.

I respectfully disagree with the second part of that comment. Morinth had 3 choices, One, Monestary life, whicdh you've already stated to be against, 2, the path she took of giving in to her condition and becoming what has already been repated ad nasuem, and the oft unspoken third option of simply living quietly and celebitly as far from Asari space as possible, as the condition only takes hold after the Asari makes her first kill, which implied one of two things 1, that she was already a killer when given her option or 2, she had no intention of living as a virgin despite knowing the consquences after being told what she was.

[darthnick427]

i'm pretty sure her brain is scattered all over her apartment in my game so i'm guessing: no.

XD

[whywhywhywhy]

Keatons wrote...
To be clear, the condition manifests 'on maturity', meaning that an Asari needs to be mature by Asari standards before it arises. As another Asari says 'I'm 60 and finally outy of my parents house', to paraphrase, meaning that she would be extremely close in asari terms to what humans would recognize as adulthood, and given how smart Morinth is supposed to be, it's not hard to reason she'd mature mentally faster than the average Asari.

I thought Samara said something along the lines of "if not caught by maturity it can't be cured." I'll look it up to be sure.  Liara in me1 says she's considered little more then a child at 100.  Samara says it's very young for an Asari so between the two a 60 year old Asari moving out doesn't mean much as we don't understand their culture.  It hasn't been shown to us but we do know a 40 year old Asari is very young confirmed by two seperate in-game sources.  Considering Liara's statement I'd say Liara's the equivilent of a 18-20 year old human.  It puts Samara's statement in context while a 60 year old adulthood doesn't make sense as the 20 year difference is a drop in the bucket to a 1000 year+ lifespan species. 20 years is significant to humans and the salarians but not the Asari.  Also their is a big difference between between taking flight and becoming a fugitive and moving out of your parents house.

Keatons wrote...
A long doesn't automatically mean a long childhood.

This is your assumption one made to support your opinion that's not supported in game. Liara's exact words "A century may seem like a long time to a short lived species like your.  But among the Asari I am considered barely more then a child."  If a century isn't considered much then 20 years is nothing I would put the transition age higher closer to 80-100 but I have nothing to confirm this.  We can only confirm 40 is very young to Asari.

Keatons wrote...
But getting to the main point, the AY has been with the Asari since the beginning of their species, that gives them untold millienia to find either a cure of some better way to deal with it. Sometimes you simply have to admit that, like Joker, there are some conditions and diseases that simply can not be cured or fixed. The current situation could simply be the best solution of untold years of failed attempts and learning the hard way what other attempts lead to. Of course, without information, any guesses, yours or mine about how the Asari have come to the current decisions to handle the AY are speculation, I'll admit.

I will as well but I have to add that their must be a better way something other then a monestary like a scientific facility.(ongoing research)  I think they simply aren't looking for a way.  Given that Cerberus developed or was testing a drug that disabled biotics in aliens couldn't the Asari have done the same or something similiar ?  If their biotics are disabled maybe they won't be able to meld.  If melding is something unaffected by their biotics then develop a drug to disrupt it.  If Cerberus can develop/work with something that affects biotic then the Asari being biotic creatures capable of melding should have in their long lives been able to develop something.  Disabling their biotics would go a long way to making them less dangerous and the Asari don't even do that.

Keatons wrote...
I respectfully disagree with the second part of that comment. Morinth had 3 choices, One, Monestary life, whicdh you've already stated to be against,

What does the Monestary do for them other then isolation, how can that help them socially ?  How can they develop a appeciating for life if they aren't allowed to have a restricted one.

Keatons wrote...
2, the path she took of giving in to her condition and becoming what has already been repated ad nasuem,

As a child many would make that choice or other poor choices because they lack guidance.

Keatons wrote...
and the oft unspoken third option of simply living quietly and celebitly as far from Asari space as possible, as the condition only takes hold after the Asari makes her first kill, which implied one of two things 1, that she was already a killer when given her option or 2, she had no intention of living as a virgin despite knowing the consquences after being told what she was.

I think it has to be implied they took a life not all of them are detected but we don't know the context in which the death happens.  Someone could have assualted her or it could have been innocent young love with a ignorance of the condition.  That we always assume an ardat-yakshi is evil and vile from the beginning is a bias. 

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 02 août 2011 - 07:05 .

[Xeranx]

I just wanted to chime in on the idea of the age of 100 being similar to 18-20 for a human. It's very difficult to try and establish a similar timeline between Asari and Humanity especially when I don't think we know when age of maturity exists for humans.

In America, 18 is deemed an adult (It is also the universally accepted age of consent), but 18 year olds are restricted. They can walk into a shop and buy a pack of cigarettes. They can sign up to join the army. They can get married, but they can't legally drink until 21. Now at 16 a person could legally drop out of high school though I don't know if that's been changed. They can (if it hasn't been changed) be legally emancipated, but they still won't be able to drive after 9pm in the 5 boroughs of NY. In the UK, if I remember correctly, 16 is the age of consent. As to what that precisely entails I don't know, but the gist of it is they can get married which puts them on par with an 18 y/o in America. In Germany kids are able to drink at 14-16?...so that puts them on par with a 21 y/o here. That makes things really confusing.

The reason I brought all that up is because the AY syndrome is said to manifest at maturity. Morinth ran at 40 so we assume that's the Asari age of maturity and put it on par with our respective ideas of age of maturity/consent for humanity. But then Liara at 106 in ME says she's regarded as little more than a child, but she's been researching the protheans for 50 years. Some would say that if she was able to start her own expedition at 50 she should be on par with 30-40 year old humans, but it's a 10 year difference for her while it's anywhere from 12-22 for us. So Benezia and Samara being what they are, or maybe focusing just on Benezia, puts them on the level of someone who's seen enough to give counsel. That's probably equivalent to 60.

My point is, if we start trying to make comparisons to what we know about ourselves we really end up trying to stuff the Asari into a box that they end up breaking out of anyway.

Modifié par Xeranx, 02 août 2011 - 07:30 .

[Sarcastic Tasha]

I really don't think Shepard has to worry about Morinth trying to kill her in ME3, unless she agrees to meld with her. Considering both Shepard and Morinth have had the opportunity to kill each other but chose not to I'd say Morinth is loyal. Shepard is probably the closest thing Morinth has had to a friend in 400 years, I hope we find out in ME3 if she actually cares about that or not.

[whywhywhywhy]

Xeranx wrote...
I just wanted to chime in on the idea of the age of 100 being similar to 18-20 for a human. It's very difficult to try and establish a similar timeline between Asari and Humanity especially when I don't think we know when age of maturity exists for humans.

I wasn't making the assertion or trying to establish a Asari/human age comparison chart.  I was saying that's how I view it.

Xeranx wrote...
In America, 18 is deemed an adult (It is also the universally accepted age of consent), but 18 year olds are restricted. They can walk into a shop and buy a pack of cigarettes. They can sign up to join the army. They can get married, but they can't legally drink until 21. Now at 16 a person could legally drop out of high school though I don't know if that's been changed. They can (if it hasn't been changed) be legally emancipated, but they still won't be able to drive after 9pm in the 5 boroughs of NY. In the UK, if I remember correctly, 16 is the age of consent. As to what that precisely entails I don't know, but the gist of it is they can get married which puts them on par with an 18 y/o in America. In Germany kids are able to drink at 14-16?...so that puts them on par with a 21 y/o here. That makes things really confusing.

The context of this aspect of the Asari culture is missing this why I wasn't making a direct comparison but simply stating how I feel.  Some parellels do exits between the age group but I wasn't trying to make a case for it but stating it from my view.

Xeranx wrote...
The reason I brought all that up is because the AY syndrome is said to manifest at maturity.

This is wrong. "The disorder generally begins in infancy, reaching full pathology during
Maiden adolescent sexual development." Samara also says it's to late to migitate after maturity not that it starts there.

Xeranx wrote...
Morinth ran at 40 so we assume that's the Asari age of maturity and put it on par with our respective ideas of age of maturity/consent for humanity.

Could mean physical Maturity not mental maturity since they are talking about a physical development.  Also you assume Morinth at 40 is mature when Samara considers the age of a very young child.  AY doesn't happen at the age of maturity.

Xeranx wrote...
But then Liara at 106 in ME says she's regarded as little more than a child, but she's been researching the protheans for 50 years. Some would say that if she was able to start her own expedition at 50 she should be on par with 30-40 year old humans, but it's a 10 year difference for her while it's anywhere from 12-22 for us. So Benezia and Samara being what they are, or maybe focusing just on Benezia, puts them on the level of someone who's seen enough to give counsel. That's probably equivalent to 60.

The Maiden stage is described as a time where they are driven to explore and experence things.  It's not a matter of when Liara starts it just makes her an exceptional Asari like Morinth(though they differ) but what matters is at the age of 106 she states her people consider her little more then a child. Just like underage kids can get mixed up in a lot of adult activities though they aren't adults.  Remember she goes on to say this is why her work wasn't respected because she was considered a child.

Also realize Benzia is wealthy Liara had resources while Morinth was a fugitive she just had her wit.

Xeranx wrote...
My point is, if we start trying to make comparisons to what we know about ourselves we really end up trying to stuff the Asari into a box that they end up breaking out of anyway.

Again arument wasn't centered around the 18-20 year old comment.  I was stating what I see it as and a proper case could be m...ahh screw it.  We know through Samara that 40 isn't a adult by Asari standards but a very young child.  We know through Liara that she's considered at the age of 106 little more then a child.

It's easy to determine an rough guideline if we look at the stages of life.  If we agree that the Matron stage serves as definate signal of adulthood given the ability to procreate.  That's 350 years.  Given that some reach this stage earlier we can assume they are physical maturity happens at an earlier point in the Maiden stage.  If we divide it in half we know that 175 years is at least halfway to definate adulthood.  We know this progression linear because 40 is considered a very young child and 100 little more then a child and her theories disregarded because of her age.  To be honest she sounds little more then a teenager which fits more inline with my current analysis my former 18-20 nod was just because of the implications of a relationship with a technical minor given our current laws.  So forget that, I'll concede being wrong.  Let's review.

Asari aging is linear their is no rapid development to Adulthood then long life.
40 is a very young child
106 little more then a child (I estimate Asari equivilent of pre-teen)
175 Halfway mark to adulthood (Asari equivilent of yound adult)
350 Definate Adulthood among the Asari age of reproduction starts.

Given that they Asari live ten times the average human Linear life if we subtract that from the Asari so their lifetime more resembled our own for a better analysis of the lifecycle we end up with:
4
10 years 6 months
17 and a half years
35 years old

Understand we will never have a direct correlation because the species differ so much but to compare to humans:
4 young child
10 little more then a child
17 young adult
35 well into adulthood and into the marked decline of female fertility.(this does have some variance)

We have no idea what this means in Asari terms of Mental development which is what they seem to gauge adulthood by.  Exploring and experience in the Maiden stage, need to settle down in the Matron stage and the Sharing of wisdom/knowledge as well as providing guidance in the Matriarch stage.  So we have no idea as to their mental development other then these defined markers.  Mental development signifies the arrival of adulthood or progression through it.  We have no idea when that happens for the Asari and we don't need to know.  What we do have is a definate conclusion that the age of 40 or 60 doesn't define them as an adult.

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 02 août 2011 - 09:39 .

[whywhywhywhy]

Sarcastic Tasha wrote...

I really don't think Shepard has to worry about Morinth trying to kill her in ME3, unless she agrees to meld with her. Considering both Shepard and Morinth have had the opportunity to kill each other but chose not to I'd say Morinth is loyal. Shepard is probably the closest thing Morinth has had to a friend in 400 years, I hope we find out in ME3 if she actually cares about that or not.

I do too

[Homey C-Dawg]

I saved her for the dominate first. One or twice after that for the luls.

It's really kind of a shame Morinth wasn't a more fleshed out and likeable character (she had a lot of untapped 'love to hate' appeal potential). The idea of being able to swap out your paladin for a vampire was a pretty neat idea imo.

[D.Kain]

[quote]ThePwener wrote...
.
And that's the kind of (dumb) ideals what disappoints me in these forums. I've had this discussion so many times. Tell the same dilemma to someone outside of the internet who knows nothing of Mass Effect and you'll see how quickly they'll say "What is wrong with you? That's sick".

I won't even bother with this thread. So much blind ignorance.[/quote]

[/quote]

I don't have close friends that would react in a way that you wrote. People that are not important to me, I wouldn't really care what they say.
That's the reason I play video games. I can be who I am, without worying about my well being.

Read very carefully: I care only about how Morinth treats me, and people close to me, that's it. She can murder a million more little girls, for all I care. Call it sick, but that's a valid reason to save Morinth, and you can't say otherwise, because it's opinion.

[celuloid]

I tried real hard to justify picking Morinth over Samara. There really is not enough information to make educated decision, and many points usually made are just wild rationalizations of fanbase.

In the end, it just boils down to one specific question: Do you prefer larger bust or smoother skin complexion?
The life is simple, indeed.

Modifié par celuloid, 06 août 2011 - 07:12 .

[D.Kain]

celuloid wrote...

I tried real hard to justify picking Morinth over Samara. There really is not enough information to make educated decision, and many points usually made are just wild rationalizations of fanbase.

In the end, it just boils down to one specific question: Do you prefer larger bust or smoother skin complexion?
The life is simple, indeed.

Smoother skin complexion indeed. 

[celuloid]

Here too.

[ThisRyGuy]

I kinda like Morinth cause she so deeply wants you but your stronger than her usual victims so therefore you kinda control her. Everyone says that Morinth is a bad person but Samara did try to force her daughter into a isolated life, and for a Asari, thats freakin long. Plus the power dominate is way more useful.

[ladyvader]

Morinth will not be in any of my playthroughs. The only time I picked her of Samara was the Shepard that got the whole squad killed during the SM, so no importing that file.

@whywhywhy
No where has it stated that Matrons is the beginning of adulthood. Liara is 108 and an adult. She is just a young adult. Big difference there. That stage in their life is when they feel like settling down to start a family. Which for many humans now days they get that feeling in their 30's. Again big difference there.

Even the asari on Illium stated she was 60 and finally out of her parents house. Which for humans can be anywhere after the age of 18. Again, adult not a child.