63 réponses à ce sujet

[Pathforge]

QUOTE:

To me and you and some few others graphics are not that important, but just like catering only to *hardcore* RPG fans vs mass market is not viable in today's market. I didn't make this up, this is just how things are.

I thought SC2 looked very good, and Blizzard games always have had great looking in-game movies (for the time) that helps push the game story along nicely. (The archangel in D2 for example) 

end QUOTE

YES you are RIGHT.  The thing is though...if EA wants Bioware to make an empty hack and slash game, then commssion a team to make a Diablo counter (and don't dare even bring up failure Darkspore lol).  Bioware should focus on the hardcore rpg fans like you and I.  If that's not someone elses thing, then get a different game.  Don't make a game because your trying to reach every single person in the market.  

You dont' see Robert Salvatore writing "And then Drizzt stepped through the portal and ended up on a star ship".  He writes exactly the same as he has all these years.  He sticks to his fan base because he's amazing at it.  He's not worried about reaching other audiences to make more money.  Same thing with Bioware.  They are writers who bring their books and stories to life.  But to do that, you NEED those missing elements to make that lasting impression. 

About Blizzard - Sure their graphics are good.  Just not the absolute GREATEST on the planet.  They pay attention to what matters in the type of games they create.  Thats why they can get away with only good and not L.A. Noire type. 

Modifié par Pathforge, 10 juillet 2011 - 03:06 .

[ImoenBaby]

My Baldur's Gate CDs are calling to me now. I've never played the game with any mods, and I sometimes wonder if I'd still remember where every last trap lays....

*fondly recalls encountering vampiric wolf pack with one magic dagger and a level 3 party*

Anyway, I love your love for BG. Just wanted to say that meeting Tolkienesque dwarves forever and ever would be incredibly dull. Some readers (and gamers no doubt) don't want to see another elf or dwarf for as long as they live, but that's a little extreme.

[Tirfan]

^I just bought the BG games again from GOG a few weeks ago, and jeez, they are addictive. I'll finish this Origins playtrough and do maybe another BG-run or go for Planescape: Torment. I think I'm perhaps too stuck up on the BG-way of doing things, but, is it a bad thing? really? When a game is so great that even after all this time I can go back and enjoy it.

[Pathforge]

ImoenBaby wrote...

My Baldur's Gate CDs are calling to me now. I've never played the game with any mods, and I sometimes wonder if I'd still remember where every last trap lays....

*fondly recalls encountering vampiric wolf pack with one magic dagger and a level 3 party*

Anyway, I love your love for BG. Just wanted to say that meeting Tolkienesque dwarves forever and ever would be incredibly dull. Some readers (and gamers no doubt) don't want to see another elf or dwarf for as long as they live, but that's a little extreme.

HA, I can understand that for sure.  I can understand wanting to make 'elves' and 'dwarves' different from other universes'.  Thing is though...make them different then.  Don't make dwarves feel like short humans.  Then what's the point?  Why have dwarves in the game at all then?  

[Pathforge]

Tirfan wrote...

^I just bought the BG games again from GOG a few weeks ago, and jeez, they are addictive. I'll finish this Origins playtrough and do maybe another BG-run or go for Planescape: Torment. I think I'm perhaps too stuck up on the BG-way of doing things, but, is it a bad thing? really? When a game is so great that even after all this time I can go back and enjoy it.

YOU SIR, hit it right on.  It should mean something to you as a developer when people are buying something from you that was made years and years ago.  Planescape Torment....now there goes ANOTHER masterpiece. 

[DRTJR]

ME 2 underwhelming to me at best. DA 2 is disappointing but I still like it, And maybe with DA 3 we'll get a better game for it, after ME 3(Which i'll buy when it's under 20 USD),DA 3 will be next and after two or three more DA 2 DLCs it will be the major DA focus.

[Pathforge]

DRTJR wrote...

ME 2 underwhelming to me at best. DA 2 is disappointing but I still like it, And maybe with DA 3 we'll get a better game for it, after ME 3(Which i'll buy when it's under 20 USD),DA 3 will be next and after two or three more DA 2 DLCs it will be the major DA focus.

Oh wow really?  Man ME2 I just couldn't stop playing it.  My wife was going to kill me.  I thought the begining chapter of DA2 was awsome.  I also loved the mysterious Thaig that was found.  After that though...it was downhill from there for me.  Then when I got to the last chapter of the game... it was REALLY hard for me to continue playing.   

[Pathforge]

Bioware, I would love to hear anything you have to say in response to this. Don't you think it's a good point to bring up?

[Pathforge]

Here is an interesting picture someone put up of how they felt about EA.  It shows how EA views games vs how gamers view them.

It's another way to describe how I feel about Dragon Age II. 

[Foolsfolly]

@ OP:

AND even MORE importantly lol...the dwarves SOUNDED like dwarves. I couldn't find any quick samples but for those of you who are familiar with true D&D lore or R.A. Salvatore's writings...or Lord of the Rings, we ALL should know how a dwarf is suppose to LOOK and sound.

Hey! I like the non-Scottish Dwarfs. It's refreshing to not hear an 'Ock' every time they speak to you.

Dwarves aren't affraid of anything. They don't quit being warriors to be a cowardly merchant like Bodhan Feddic. As much as I LOVED the character, he should not have been a dwarf

Dude, this isn't D&D nor Lord of the Rings. This is a completely different series with its own lore. And here they don't have a whole race stereotyped. Although, they all come close.

@ Torax

Personally I found ME1 to be graphically poor, slow, boring and to a point at times buggy. I did not find the story greatly compelling either in the end. It wasn't a horrible game but it was not even in my top of rpg list. I've only played it a few times but by the 2nd play through I noticed that the game didn't change for hardly anything so that is why I wouldn't even really call it a RPG. It's just a well voiced linear compared. Rose colored glasses.

I drove friends and family insane with my obsession with Mass Effect 1. No one I knew in real life thought much of that game. Found it boring, lazy in the shooting mechanics, confusing with the inventory, and generally had no good things to say about the barren planets that you drive the Mako on.

But I loved it.

And the ME2 came out and replaying ME1 is tough to do. ME2's BioWare's best in my honest opinion.

And if you notice my sig I really need to go back to Baldur's Gate 2....but it's so boring!

[Pathforge]

In response to Foolsfolly:

About Dwarves: I mentioned before that different can be awsome. Thing is though, if you're going to go different..IF you're going to make a race "Your own" then make them DIFFERENT. There is no difference between dwarves and humans in DA. They have the SAME varied accents, same politics, same types of merchants, thugs/carta whatever. Don't just make humans short, have them say Sal Roka a hundred times and say "BOOM. Biowarian Dwarves!"

2. About the game NOT being D&D or Lord of the Rings: If you look at the first article I posted on the main post, Greg Zeschuk who is one of Bioware's ORIGINAL founders said himself: Dragon Age is the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate. In other words, THEIR reincarnation of a game they could NOT create due to copyright issues. So YES. It was their intent to create a BG feel.

2A - Second post created in response to my main was a player saying DA did NOT feel like Baldur's Gate. When you say what Greg Zeschuk said...that is a PROBLEM. And being that he was around when BG was created, he should have been the first person to step in.

3. Well if you find ME1 and Baldur's Gate II boring and yet you STILL play them...then CLEARLY they are ULTIMATE games.

Modifié par Pathforge, 09 juillet 2011 - 08:38 .

[Pathforge]

Plaintiff wrote...

The key components needed to submerge you in a game, maybe. I like both Dragon Age games just fine as they are. If you want to play Baldur's Gate instead, then do that. I'd rather not have every crpg be the exact same.

Read about Michael Morhaime - CEO and co-founder of Blizzard Entertainment.  You might find it interesting.  I'm NOT being sarcastic at all.  It's hard not sound like a jerk with certain responses when writing a post.  I'm just trying to make a point.

ALL Blizzard sequels are EXACTLY the same.  EXACTLY.  Only difference is...graphics get an overhaul, MAYBE they add a new class / race etc.  Gameplay and mechanics are the same.  Look at Starcraft II for instance.  It's pretty much Starcraft redone.  And look how good THAT game did.  Same with Diablo III.  Gameplay is EXACTLY the same as the previous games.  Also note how LONG it takes Blizzard to create a sequel.  Also note how the gaming community goes INSANE when they announce their next title. 

Perfect example of a company who KNOWS - When you make a game people love, WHY...why change it?  Just build on TOP of it and make it better.  There is a REASON why Baldur's Gate was so successful.  There is a reason why ALL of Blizzard's games did so amazing.  EA in particular needs to keep that in mind.  I think they play a large part in what happened to DAII. 

[DRTJR]

@ pathforge
I like the DA dwaven accents, Humans all sound British with the exception of antivans who all sound like ricardo montalban. Thedas is an interesting place with the Fade Qunari and an occasional Blight, and spiritual successor means in the style of, or thematically similar to something we did prior.

[Pathforge]

DRTJR wrote...

@ pathforge
I like the DA dwaven accents, Humans all sound British with the exception of antivans who all sound like ricardo montalban. Thedas is an interesting place with the Fade Qunari and an occasional Blight, and spiritual successor means in the style of, or thematically similar to something we did prior.

Don't get me wrong.  I LOVED DA: Origins.  Bioware's story and lore is the only thing that is tie with the Buldur's Gate series.  Character development is MUCH much better as well.

I love the whole idea behind the Fade.  I love the story behind the Black City, how you think you can see it from anywhere in the Fade.  Everything about it being connected to the Dark Spawn.  Really awsome job.  It's thier amazing attention to detail in this respect, that lead to my disappointment in the total lack of imagination for DAII.  This is of course, compared to DA: Origins I mean. 

If Dragon Age II were the FIRST of the series, it would have been amazing.  At least...to me.

[Pathforge]

I took an important quest from THIS post -


*Just for the record I regret buying Dragon Age II. I played it once, it wasn't nearly as long as Dragon Age Origins and I don't feel the game had any real replay value nor was it worth $60. I finished it in a weekend finish and have it now collecting dust on my living room floor. Maybe if it only cost me $40 brand new I wouldn't feel so cheated. Opinions vary on the quality of games but that's my opinion and it's the only opinion that really matters to me in the end.

Read the post from the link above.  Actually it's an amazing post about trade-ins BUT he felt compelled to make a comment about Dragon Age II

[Pathforge]

Another post for Bioware to look at. Right over at IGN.

http://www.ign.com/b...ike-but-couldnt

[Azzanadra]

I didnt enjoy DA2 as much as BG or DA:O but it still was an excellent game.. its time DA stops trying to be BG 2.0 and be a individual game series free from fanboy rage.

[Pathforge]

Azzanadra wrote...

I didnt enjoy DA2 as much as BG or DA:O but it still was an excellent game.. its time DA stops trying to be BG 2.0 and be a individual game series free from fanboy rage.

The fact that you enjoyed DA: Origins MORE than DAII is a problem.  Not for you.  For Bioware. 

[DRTJR]

The following comments is all In my humble opinion in reference to DA2 relative to DA:O

Well the Story was Inferior and the characters where pick and chose for me (I loved Merrill, Carver, Fenris, Sebastion, and Verric)the game play was better, the UI is better in regards to the talents and and Level up, but inferior in other regards. Sometimes it's better and some times it was worse.

[Pathforge]

DRTJR wrote...

The following comments is all In my humble opinion in reference to DA2 relative to DA:O

Well the Story was Inferior and the characters where pick and chose for me (I loved Merrill, Carver, Fenris, Sebastion, and Verric)the game play was better, the UI is better in regards to the talents and and Level up, but inferior in other regards. Sometimes it's better and some times it was worse.

I enjoyed MOST of the characters in DAII.  My issue really is the fact that the game was just too underdeveloped.  It felt rushed.  It felt like they figured out a simpler way to do things in Awakening (which worked WONDERS as an expansion) and just put it into a sequel (which is suppose to be a full game). 

The other thing that gets to me is... buying a game is not like going to a movie where you just pay half price at a matinee.  It's $50 bucks...and $50 bucks can buy my family a month and a half worth of groceries.  Money you spend counts so much more than it did a few years back.

If I'm going to spend $50 dollars of my hard earned money on something, I don't mind.  In fact I never buy used games because I always prefer to support developers...but give me a FULL GAME for crying out loud.  Not a city and 3 little areas outside of it that are like hallways with invisible walls. 

[Sajuro]

Dragon Age Origin was a very good game, but I liked Dragon Age 2 better than the original because DA:O frankly had ridiculously long quests that consisted of running through the exciting locals of, ancient ruins, a castle, an abandoned castle that may count as ancient ruins also... but on a mountain, and ancient ruins that are underground. It did have a more epic story than Dragon Age 2, but the sequel had much better pacing in its quests and combat system
I never played Baldur's Gate, maybe one day I will but I am in no position to judge how Dragon Age stacks up the game. All I know is that I like Dragon Age 2 better for the relationship system, the combat, the characters, the dialogue system, and the pacing of the quests. and I like Dragon Age Origins better for choices in how to start and playthrough the game, the fact that it had Dog as a full party member (it may seem a silly reason, but Dog was my favorite character), the story in the sense of being an epic story (which I would argue that Dragon Age 2 isn't aiming to have, since we know Bioware can do an epic story since most of their games are epic stories and Dragon Age 2 doesn't feel like one), and the overall end as your Warden put their blade into the Archdemons head.

[Pathforge]

Sajuro wrote...

Dragon Age Origin was a very good game, but I liked Dragon Age 2 better than the original because DA:O frankly had ridiculously long quests that consisted of running through the exciting locals of, ancient ruins, a castle, an abandoned castle that may count as ancient ruins also... but on a mountain, and ancient ruins that are underground. It did have a more epic story than Dragon Age 2, but the sequel had much better pacing in its quests and combat system
I never played Baldur's Gate, maybe one day I will but I am in no position to judge how Dragon Age stacks up the game. All I know is that I like Dragon Age 2 better for the relationship system, the combat, the characters, the dialogue system, and the pacing of the quests. and I like Dragon Age Origins better for choices in how to start and playthrough the game, the fact that it had Dog as a full party member (it may seem a silly reason, but Dog was my favorite character), the story in the sense of being an epic story (which I would argue that Dragon Age 2 isn't aiming to have, since we know Bioware can do an epic story since most of their games are epic stories and Dragon Age 2 doesn't feel like one), and the overall end as your Warden put their blade into the Archdemons head.

Most of what you mentioned as far as liking in DAII I totally agree with.  I just feel they should have taken Origins and did that.  Not create a whole new engine. 

I can definitely understand how ANYONE would not want to spend their game time run around and do every little quest, going here, traveling there, talk to this person, talk to that person.  Its just that if I buy a game, I don't want to be able to finish it within the first few days.  Origins took me a while to fully play through and finish it.  I took my time and I enjoyed it.  If I weren't the kind of person who enjoyed doing every little thing, the game itself actually went along quite quickly. 

As far as characters... (and of course this is just a matter of taste) I liked ALL the characters in DA: Origins.  In DAII there were a few I just never bothered with.  Anders especially...he was really awsome in Awakening.  In DAII I hated that he just whined so much. 

As for the story in DAII...it COULD have been as epic as Origins.  It would have made more sense to have Anders ask Hawke to take him to the different mage towers throughout the Free Marches.  This way it Anders could get a REAL view on how mages are treated all over vs his decision based on a single city.  Then after being away from Kirkwall so long, you return to find that Meredith had destroyed the mage tower and killed all mages in Kirkwall herself.  At that point, the game should force you to either side with Anders or Cullen and the Templars.  Siding with the templars would mean fighting Anders at full power as his demon form.  That would have been a good "What the hell" moment... at least for me. 

Now I'm not saying that I'm a fantastic storyteller and that my ideas are just the best ever... but if it would have been something along those lines I would have never made this post.  

[Sajuro]

@Pathforge:
I liked the new engine better, Merrill is adorable

I love doing side quests and squeezing content out of games, but what I meant is that the crazy dungeon lengths feel more artificial length and quite frankly I was about to throw something by the third time Oghren said "You know what, Branka is further in" and then both of the boss fights in that quest, frankly Dragon Age: Origins dungeons seemed to have no other purpose than making you run out of health poultices and injury kits before you hit the main boss. I don't think that Origins would go quickly if you didn't do the side quests, because those set up a patience which is severely taxed in Nature of the Beast, A Paragon of Her Kind, and Holy Crap Someone Kidnapped Anora the Alpha-****.
For the characters, I did end up using the same party all throughout the game on my first playthrough (Bethany/Anders,Varric/Isabella, and Merrill) since I had a warrior Hawke who could cut things apart at close quarters. In my second playthrough, I have started to like each character more as I made myself switch my party out more. I didn't like Sten until I downloaded the feast day gift pack because it seemed impossible to please him, and I never felt close to any of the characters like I did in DA2.

A problem with that is that there were 2 Circles in the Free Marches and during the first act the Starkhaven one burned down, reducing all the circles in the Free Marches to the one in the middle of Kirkwall's bays. Also Anders did not base his decision on a single circle, it was also seeing how ****ty the templars treated mages in Ferelden as well and it did ****** him off. All that happened with Justice possessing him was that Anders talked about Vengeance as much as Justice talked about Justice in Awakenings, I can understand how Anders got to be the way he is after the game of "Kick the mage" that the universe played with him, and his personality fused with Justice's personality. I think that DA2 might actually make him a tragic character if you played Awakening also, you could see the light hearted, flirtatious mage who liked cats become a tortured person as a result of his search for justice and attempting to help a friend which ended up backfiring tremendously.

[Pathforge]

@Sajuro

Yeah I liked Merrill too. She cracked me up with her comments. Especially her and Varric.

The whole dungeon thing I guess is simply a matter of taste. At least, that's what I'm getting from how I'm understanding what you said. Maybe I'm wrong. What I mean is... If I'm going through an area like the Deep Roads which is suppose to be tunnels that are literally miles and miles and miles and miles and miles long that once connected all dwarvern cities, etc...then it SHOULD be long. That's how I feel about it anyway. I enjoy exploring areas. What was boring about it though was the fact that there wasn't much going on other than just killing Darkspawn for the most part. At least, that's what I found boring about it.

About the length of the Original - Really? I thought it seemed much much shorter just going straight through. I guess that's because the first time I wanted to enjoy every little thing.

Durlag's Tower in Baldur's Gate was a great example of how dungeons should be.  Sure there are tons of demons and creatures...but there was a whole lot more going on as well.  Kept it interesting because it was more than just "another randomized dungeon" just to add filler to a game. 

About what you said in regards to my DAII story - I was going more toward changing the story behind Anders all together. I meant that Hawke should have caught Anders during the final stages of his investigation. Yeah, if they kept everything the way it is, then my story would make no sense or just be silly. The story itself behind the characters was great. Actually I think I enjoyed Merrill's and Ander's backstory the most.

I understand what you mean about Anders and his change of personality because of what he witnessed as well as being possessed. Sadly for ME though, it made me NOT want him in my group. Ever watch Cowboy Beebop? The Spike Spiegel type character is how I pictured Anders should be. He's cool and to himself most of the time, but anytime you bring up Viscious...he'd go insane. That's just my opinion though. And actually I think it's good that you enjoyed DAII so much because it means you don't feel like you wasted money.

Modifié par Pathforge, 12 juillet 2011 - 02:33 .

[stewie1974]

Pathforge wrote...



That's my point though.  Dragon Age II should have been MORE than the original.  Once again, they did it right with Mass Effect.  They just took ME1 and made it better. 

Development time.

Dragon Age : Origins = 4 years +
Dragon Age ][ = 1.5 years.

Mass Effect development time.... well ME was announced in 2005.. released in 2008, so that's 3 years dev...only one more than ME2.

so basically... with a 2.5 year deficiet in game development you can't really expect a game of equal length and scale...

And yeah to be honest, E.A are not known for their long development windows... here's how it goes.

BW:            Have a great idea for a game.
EA:             Great how much time do we need to pay you for?
BW:            We think it will take 4 years to fully realize it...
EA:             We'll pay the team for 18 months.
BW:            I guess we'll have to scale our idea down some then.
EA:             *takes a puff from their cigar*.. Sure, Sure... what you leave out we can develop later as DLC.