221 réponses à ce sujet

[InvaderErl]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

For a formidable ship, it ends up being decimated with considerable ease by even an non-upgraded Normandy. If faced against a Dreadnaught, it would be incinerated since the Normandy is inferior and had no problems.

The Normandy got up close with disruptor torpedos which need to be fired at point blank range which the Turian cruisers with their lack of mobility would not have been able to do. Against a larger ship their particle beam seemed to do the job more than adequately considered he knocked out 3 enemy cruisers.

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Except there is reason to believe EDI only had access to very limited portions of the ship, otherwise why not interrupt the platforms to help Shepard? In fact, she actually instructs Shepard to reconnect her once you defeat Harby and his goons, thereby insinuating she did not have any control of the platforms. Nevertheless, the Collector Ship was staged to be a trap. One would think Harbinger would be capable of laying out which could stop three soldiers.

Thinking on it now during that sequence doesn't EDI actually say that Harbinger and her are in the midst of attacking each others firewalls. I think she might even have said that she's established some degree of control which is why the platforms stopped coming. I'd really need to see it again but unless I'm mistaken she's not completely locked out of the system. She does ask you to reconnect her but that's so that she can finish the data mining process and from there on she keeps unlocking doors for you which would certainly have stopped your progress.

Its made very clear that EDI is the only reason Shepard escaped that ship.

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Aye, however his plan relied on someone not attempting it. Evidently if Kennson thought of doing so, someone else may well have. I would hardly fault him in this regard because Harby makes far more ridiculously decisions later on anyway.

Yes because Plan A went to hell, he was making due with the resources he had which were limited to the Collectors. What would you have had him do? Leave the Omega 4 relay?

Modifié par InvaderErl, 08 juillet 2011 - 09:37 .

[littlezack]

For a formidable ship, it ends up being decimated with considerable ease by even an non-upgraded Normandy. If faced against a Dreadnaught, it would be incinerated since the Normandy is inferior and had no problems.

The Normandy doesn't take out the Collector Ship 'with ease'; without the Thanix cannon, it almost gets destroyed in the fight. Also, the Normandy - especially the SR-2 - is no normal frigate. It's impossible to know it's exact destructive potential, but the Illusive Man probably outfitted it with the absolute best.

[InvaderErl]

And just to reiterate the larger cruisers would have been unable to get close enough to use their torpedoes.

[The Unfallen]

They're both dead in my eyes.

[Fatemaster]

Lol, I wouldn´t judge a Reaper by its voice, but by its intelligence. (nope, not by speeches)

[CannotCompute]

If Harbinger would've sounded a bit more like Sovereign, he wouldn't have been so annoying to listen to.

The VA is to be blamed largely for this, he put too much emotion in his lines, causing Harby to sound more human, instead of cold and robotic. So I really hope the Voice Director will instruct Keith Szarabajka to say his lines differently.

Modifié par CannotCompute, 08 juillet 2011 - 09:44 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

InvaderErl wrote...

To be fair both games do a lot of that. I mean what the heck was Saren holding Shepard over the side of the building for, he had a huge oppurtunity to just let him go and he doesn't and instead actually holds onto him! Not to mention Sovereign is supposedly closing in on them quick but Shepard/Saren have enough time to engage in a lengthy conversation with one another.

Or Sovereign/the Geth refusing to just float a ship over Zhu's Hope and obliterate it. Or nobody bothering to post a guard outside the Illos relay. The baddies of both games get real accomadating when the plot demands it.

Agreed, games have a tendency to go for the Hollywood effect too readily. ME2's was just far more blatant. In the scene you described, Saren was momentarily distracted by the alarm, turned away from Shepard and was subsequently punched in the face. It may be stretching believably but is feasible With Sovereign, again still a stretch but we can deduce either it takes considerable time to override the systems or Sovereign in fact could not do anything until Saren completely transferred control over.

If Saren had obliterated Feros, he would have drawn unwanted attention. His mission was to remain discreet and an orbital strike negates that. Remember he was already charged by this point but evidence was not sufficient to ignite a war. The destruction of Feros could well have changed the Councils mind. Guards are referenced to by Liara and averted by virtue of the Normandy's stealth. While it would have been nice to have actually seen them. The accomplished the necessary believably factor.

Like I said, they were reaching to a degree but ME2 did not even bother. The plot just assumed constantly everything would work out. This is most evident in the Suicide Mission, where bull rushing the Omega Relay is thought to be a good idea.

Except we do know that they are looking into it, that's the whole point of Ash showing up in Horizon. How much they can actually do however is severely limited by the fact the fact that entering the Terminus systems is considered a hostile act.

This is purely speculative and partially averted when we meet Ashley. Yes, they are setting up defenses but the story chooses to elude this into establishing amicable relations with the Terminus, not defending them from an unknown enemy. VS had already been commissioned prior to Anderson learning about the Collectors. VS then grabs the idiot ball and spews garbage about Cerberus, none of which makes any sense.

Nonetheless, it remains a contradiction both Anderson and especially Udina's character. The latter was irate with one colony destroyed. Now multiple ones have gone missing and he does not seem to care. More on this below...

From Delann it seems that most people that chose to live out in the Terminus think the stories are made up to get them to return to Alliance space which seems reasonable from a group of people willing to head out into territories wherein they are essentially open to every manner of pirate/slaver just to get away from the Alliance.

That is not entirely true. Delann's disdain for the Alliance is because he believes they are useless and only do something if it is of some benefit to them. His theory is surprisingly confirmed in ME2, as the Alliance is ridiculously inept. Had they actually bothered to send in fleets or done well... anything. He may have changed his mind. The VS argument here is irrelevant since it took over two years and again the game chooses to specify on other angles.

Without knowing what they do and especially without 3 being out yet you can't really complain about what his plan was without knowing what he was going to do with it.

This is the fundamental flaw in the narrative. ME2 is utterly dependent on ME3 to salvage its plot into a cohesive and plausible story. If BioWare chooses to make a human shaped Reaper, it is the requirement of the narrative to explain why, otherwise the concept is simply a contrived mess. There is good reason why the majority of the fanbase have since chastised BioWare endlessly for how laughable they found the "Terminator." From what we have seen, there is no human reapers on Earth or any in the closing scene in ME2.

The whole of objective for the Reapers is to worm out through Dark Space, thus probability indicates Harbinger is trying to succeed where Sovereign failed. Either way, we can primarily fault the writing here since it has no idea what to do.

I personally have a theory that the Reapers are going to be in somewhat vulnerable position having burned up their power in getting here. I remember there being some blurb early on that we would find out early in the game things were not completely hopeless - in any case we should wait to 3 before we make too many pronouncements.

Hmm, that is the first I have heard of this theory, and actually like the overall idea. It serves a suitable means to weaken a supposed omnipotent species.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 08 juillet 2011 - 09:52 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Harbinger is the surpreme enemy whilst Sovereign is/was the surpreme villian.

Do I need to explain this?

Not to me.

//thread

[Goneaviking]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

For a formidable ship, it ends up being decimated with considerable ease by even an non-upgraded Normandy. If faced against a Dreadnaught, it would be incinerated since the Normandy is inferior and had no problems.

The Normandy was actually upgraded before Shepherd set foot on it. Upgraded from the most advanced ship in the Alliance fleet that is, and then Shepherd may/may not upgrade it with technology that for various reasons may not have been available to Cerberus during construction.

The only reason he didn't capture/kill Shepard with the Derelict ship and with the Reaper IFF was because of EDI's involvement.

Except there is reason to believe EDI only had access to very limited portions of the ship, otherwise why not interrupt the platforms to help Shepard? In fact, she actually instructs Shepard to reconnect her once you defeat Harby and his goons, thereby insinuating she did not have any control of the platforms. Nevertheless, the Collector Ship was staged to be a trap.

EDI was able to provide assistance with the Collector Ship despite being under attack by malicious programming that had been put in place by the Collectors/Harbinger to take her out after EDI's unpredictable involvement on Horizon forced the Collectors to flee when it brought the colony's guns came online.

Even though Harbinger's trap failed he'd already put in place a contingency plan with the signal hidden inside the IFF that gave away the Normandy's location. If Shepherd and pals hadn't been deus ex machina'd into the tiny shuttle then they would have been either killed/captured by the collectors or spaced by EDI.

That's not bad planning really.

As for ramming an asteroid into the Omega relay prior to Arrival that was not an issue. It seems that nobody had ever done so or had cause to do so.

Aye, however his plan relied on someone not attempting it. Evidently if Kennson thought of doing so, someone else may well have. I would hardly fault him in this regard because Harby makes far more ridiculously decisions later on anyway.

Those relays are pretty damned tough, the Mu Relay took a massive asteroid hit and was thrown right out of citadel space a couple thousand years ago. It looked for all the world like they were unbreakable, even if the Reapers knew it could be done then they probably knew that the lesser species had every reason to believe it couldn't be done with their level of technology.

*****

For my part I see the Collectors actions against the traverse colonies as being, at least in part, a psyop against the humans who must have seemed like the only credible threat to the reapers following Sovereigns failure.

There's this mysterious bogeyman disappearing entire human colonies out in the traverse and leaving no evidence as to what they are, and no clear way to predict who will be hit next or when. The Alliance is constrained in their possible interventions, if they act officially in the area then they'll likely provoke resistance from the local races and possibly even war; it may also act to drive a wedge between the Alliance and their allies in the council because once again someone is attack human colonies and the council will not help them protect the humans.

Even if the humans identify the Collectors as the threat it works for Harbinger because a) no one knows there's a connection between them and the reapers, they're only targetting humans so why should anyone else care?, c) they've been trading spectacularly advanced technology to the people of the region for who knows how long so it's clear that it's a hard fight for anyone who gets involved and d) no one can safely travel through the Omega 4 Relay without a Reaper IFF so while the Alliance and anyone else they drag into the fight are concentrating their efforts on the Omega relay (which is outside their zone of influence and quite possibly will provoke another war) the Reapers are moving into position to attack from a different direction anyway.

So yeah, Harbinger's plan isn't necessarily the big stupid it seems.

Modifié par Goneaviking, 08 juillet 2011 - 10:01 .

[The Unfallen]

Enemy is a synonym of villain...

[TobyHasEyes]

Sovereign. No doubt.

[littlezack]

Nonetheless, it remains a contradiction both Anderson and especially Udina's character. The latter was irate with one colony destroyed. Now multiple ones have gone missing and he does not seem to care. More on this below...

An Alliance colony. Again, the colonies the Collector's hit separated from the Alliance. It'd be like the British caring about something happening in America...right after the Revolutionary War.

[InvaderErl]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Agreed, games have a tendency to go for the Hollywood effect too readily. ME2's was just far more blatant. In the scene you described, Saren was momentarily distracted by the alarm, turned away from Shepard and was subsequently punched in the face. It may be stretching believably but is feasible With Sovereign, again still a stretch but we can deduce either it takes considerable time to override the systems or Sovereign in fact could not do anything until Saren completely transferred control over.

If Saren had obliterated Feros, he would have drawn unwanted attention. His mission was to remain discreet and an orbital strike negates that. Remember he was already charged by this point but evidence was not sufficient to ignite a war. The destruction of Feros could well have changed the Councils mind. Guards are referenced to by Liara and averted by virtue of the Normandy's stealth. While it would have been nice to have actually seen them. The accomplished the necessary believably factor.

I'm not saying destroy the planet, I'm saying fly a ship (it doesn't even have to be Sovereign) over the Zhu's Hope colony that they apparently were spending days trying to crack and just wipe it out with a few shots. The Council/Alliance knew that Saren had a unique ship already anyway.

As for the Iilos relay, a single ship staring at the relay would have seen the relay activate as the Normandy approached, they knew after all Shepard had access to a stealth ship (it was even public knowledge!) and was after them and had been on their tails thus far. Saren/Sovereign practically go out of their way throughout ME1 to let Shep win.

Bourne Endeavor wrote...
This is purely speculative and partially averted when we meet Ashley. Yes, they are setting up defenses but the story chooses to elude this into establishing amicable relations with the Terminus, not defending them from an unknown enemy.

Which is Ash's cover story , the Illusive Man/Shepard and Delann outright say this.

Bourne Endeavor wrote...
VS had already been commissioned prior to Anderson learning about the Collectors. VS then grabs the idiot ball and spews garbage about Cerberus, none of which makes any sense.

The VS is emotional and what brought them to Horizon was the leaked info about Shep working for Cerberus. They calm down soon thereafter and see sense.

Bourne Endeavor wrote...
Nonetheless, it remains a contradiction both Anderson and especially Udina's character. The latter was irate with one colony destroyed. Now multiple ones have gone missing and he does not seem to care. More on this below...

The same Udina who betrays Shepard when its politically convenient? Udina cares about his career, stirring up trouble about the Terminus systems wouldn't be conducive to his career.

That is not entirely true. Delann's disdain for the Alliance is because he believes they are useless and only do something if it is of some benefit to them. His theory is surprisingly confirmed in ME2, as the Alliance is ridiculously inept. Had they actually bothered to send in fleets or done well... anything. He may have changed his mind. The VS argument here is irrelevant since it took over two years and again the game chooses to specify on other angles.

The woman that Ashley is speaking to at the start of Horizon says "people out here don't trust the Alliance", Delann does not seem unique in his views.

This is the fundamental flaw in the narrative. ME2 is utterly dependent on ME3 to salvage its plot into a cohesive and plausible story. If BioWare chooses to make a human shaped Reaper, it is the requirement of the narrative to explain why, otherwise the concept is simply a contrived mess. There is good reason why the majority of the fanbase have since chastised BioWare endlessly for how laughable they found the "Terminator." From what we have seen, there is no human reapers on Earth or any in the closing scene in ME2.

I disagree here, not so much on the Reaper design - if it had looked more squid-like I think the majority of the complaints would go away but the middle chapter of a trilogy always feels this way when we don't have the ending. One of the major complaints against ESB was that people felt like it didn't have an "ending of it own".

I personally have a theory that the Reapers are going to be in somewhat vulnerable position having burned up their power in getting here. I remember there being some blurb early on that we would find out early in the game things were not completely hopeless - in any case we should wait to 3 before we make too many pronouncements.

Hmm, that is the first I have heard of this theory, and actually like the overall idea. It serves a suitable means to weaken a supposed omnipotent species.

I try.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 08 juillet 2011 - 10:47 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

InvaderErl wrote...

The Normandy got up close with disruptor torpedos which need to be fired at point blank range which the Turian cruisers with their lack of mobility would not have been able to do. Against a larger ship their particle beam seemed to do the job more than adequately considered he knocked out 3 enemy cruisers.

No, if you have the Thanix cannon, you could have maintained range since the Normandy almost crippled the Collector Ship from a distance. With disruptor torpedos, it still did considerable damage. Going up close is arguably a poor strategy when you factor the consequential explosion of a ship that size would have resulted in debris possibly hitting the Normandy, which is exactly what happens. "Get in close" was just a "cool" moment.

Thinking on it now during that sequence doesn't EDI actually say that Harbinger and her are in the midst of attacking each others firewalls. I think she might even have said that she's established some degree of control which is why the platforms stopped coming. I'd really need to see it again but unless I'm mistaken she's not completely locked out of the system. She does ask you to reconnect her but that's so that she can finish the data mining process and from there on she keeps unlocking doors for you which would certainly have stopped your progress.

Its made very clear that EDI is the only reason Shepard escaped that ship.

Possible I will admit, but a stretch to some extent since Harbinger is actively fighting you while moving platforms himself and EDI later states Shepard must reconnect her manually so she can move the platform he is on. Been a month or so since I played the mission, so I will have to watch specifically for EDI. Regardless, it certainly did Harbinger no favors and I will not even go into how idiotic TIM was.

Yes because Plan A went to hell, he was making due with the resources he had which were limited to the Collectors. What would you have had him do? Leave the Omega 4 relay?

No, just leave the Collectors there if need be and toss the human reaper plan on the back burner. By abducting colonies, Harbinger made himself known. The Alliance remained incompetent but Cerberus actively targeted them. Had he kept quiet, there is a strong likelihood TIM would not have revived Shepard. Arrival was a significantly better plan for the sole reason it would not have taken a decade or more to complete.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 08 juillet 2011 - 10:07 .

[Notlikeyoucare]

Sovereign> the weird voice that was talking to us in ME2. Who, up until arrival, I was not even sure was a reaper.

[Encaustic]

Sovereign's VA was better because of the emotionless montone.  He was much more menacing. 

"This exchange is over."

The scariest thing about him though was that you could tell that he did not care one iota about anything you did.  You weren't even an ant to him.  - you were some kind of pond scum that grows under a rock.

Modifié par Encaustic, 08 juillet 2011 - 10:26 .

[littlezack]

No, just leave the Collectors there if need be and toss the human reaper plan on the back burner. By abducting colonies, Harbinger made himself known. The Alliance remained incompetent but Cerberus actively targeted them. Had he kept quiet, there is a strong likelihood TIM would not have revived Shepard. Arrival was a significantly better plan for the sole reason it would not have taken a decade or more to complete

You're making a lot of assumptions there. We don't know how long the Reaper-Human would've taken till completion - EDI made a guess,but it was just that - a guess, based on little knowledge. Also, keep in mind that the first thing the Collectors did, before even abducting colonies, was to kill Shepard. There's no way they could have anticipated Cerberus BRINGING HIM BACK FROM THE DEAD. The plan to create the human-reaper was a fairly safe one; nobody had ever successful gotten through the Omega-4 relay, nobody would ever suspect the Collectors of having the power to take whole colonies, and the Alliance doesn't even dare set foot in the Terminus system.

[InvaderErl]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...


No, if you have the Thanix cannon, you could have maintained range since the Normandy almost crippled the Collector Ship from a distance.

Admittedly that's a weaker moment during that fight if you have the cannon (though the Normandy crash landing is inconsequential really) but I was talking moreso about what your average cruiser would be carrying which is disruptor torpedos.

Bourne Endeavor wrote...
With disruptor torpedos, it still did considerable damage. Going up close is arguably a poor strategy when you factor the consequential explosion of a ship that size would have resulted in debris possibly hitting the Normandy, which is exactly what happens. "Get in close" was just a "cool" moment.

It says in the codex that disruptor torpedos have to be fired at close ranges to be effective.

No, just leave the Collectors there if need be and toss the human reaper plan on the back burner. By abducting colonies, Harbinger made himself known. The Alliance remained incompetent but Cerberus actively targeted them. Had he kept quiet, there is a strong likelihood TIM would not have revived Shepard. Arrival was a significantly better plan for the sole reason it would not have taken a decade or more to complete.

Of course Arrival required somebody just by luck stumbling across Object Rho and the Alpha Relay, by then Harbinger had already been working for the last 2 years.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 08 juillet 2011 - 10:50 .

[Goneaviking]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

Its made very clear that EDI is the only reason Shepard escaped that ship.

Possible I will admit, but a stretch to some extent since Harbinger is actively fighting you while moving platforms himself and EDI later states Shepard must reconnect her manually so she can move the platform he is on. Been a month or so since I played the mission, so I will have to watch specifically for EDI. Regardless, it certainly did Harbinger no favors and I will not even go into how idiotic TIM was.

EDI opens a few doors during your mad dash for safety, that's what lets you escape. I think it's possible that Harbinger allowed enough self-control to the Collector General to move some platforms around, but that's purely speculative and not necessarily very persuasive.

Had he kept quiet, there is a strong likelihood TIM would not have revived Shepard. Arrival was a significantly better plan for the sole reason it would not have taken a decade or more to complete.

The opening scene to ME2 establishes that TIM and Miranda already believe Shepherd's claims about the Reapers, and TIM pretty much declares that the fate of humanity depends on keeping Shepherd alive to fight them.

This was while Shepherd was still alive and hunting Geth mind you.

[Pride Demon]

I like both... What? I do...
They are both extremely interesting villains, the kind you are proud to have bested...

One thing that always leaves me dumbfounded however is how so many people are ready to attack Harbinger for being a poor excuse of a villain, while at the same time being extremely apologetic when it comes to Sovereign, ignoring the fact that Sovereign actually accomplished very little (if anything at all) that furthers the Reaper goals, aside from generically looking cool, and failed SPECTACULARLY in doing its job...
Double standard much?

[Parion]

I find both equally awesome, Sovereign wins simply for the sexy voice.

Harbinger's actions make perfect sense to me.
The thing is, he wants Shepard, preferably alive. The Collector operation, the whole deal with the Reapinator, it was all secondary to dealing with Shepard, and he was more than willing to sacrifice the entire Collector species to that end.
Now, this isn't so much "OMG Supa-Shepad must be defeated", as it is placing a complete lack of value in the collectors and the newborn, and Shepard being mildly interesting.
He's a Collecter's (Heh) Item, with Authentic Battle Damage.


What killed me about Harbinger's canned lines was that they were too loud. They should have been subtle, a bare whisper trickling slowly into your soul.
Indoctrinaaatioooon.....

[wyk4wgary]

Different thought!
Sovereign looks down to any race, doesnt show any interest in lifting any one of them and just wants all of them exterminated!
An inter-galactic enemy
Harbinger looks down to any race but shows strong interest in humanity, others??? he doesnt care.
Potential ally for Cerberus.

Harbinger are more supreme than Sovereign.
He could release control on the platform before they(the collectors) die and assume control on the others.
Sovereign, when Shep destroyed the Saren husk, he couldn't release control and then the ship just went down.
I would say Sovereign is a stupid badass. If he could escape from Saren's husk, the outcome of the battle of the Citadel might be different!

[Notlikeyoucare]

Parion wrote...

I find both equally awesome, Sovereign wins simply for the sexy voice.

Harbinger's actions make perfect sense to me.
The thing is, he wants Shepard, preferably alive. The Collector operation, the whole deal with the Reapinator, it was all secondary to dealing with Shepard, and he was more than willing to sacrifice the entire Collector species to that end.
Now, this isn't so much "OMG Supa-Shepad must be defeated", as it is placing a complete lack of value in the collectors and the newborn, and Shepard being mildly interesting.
He's a Collecter's (Heh) Item, with Authentic Battle Damage.


What killed me about Harbinger's canned lines was that they were too loud. They should have been subtle, a bare whisper trickling slowly into your soul.
Indoctrinaaatioooon.....

Then why did Harbinger kill him at the start of the game? Why did the Collectors attempt to kill Shepard everywhere else they were encountered? Why did they make no attempt at confining Shepard in Arrival when he was knocked out?

Why didn't the Collector's simply board the SR-1 and stun everyone with Seeker Swarms instead of blowing it up?

Harbingers plan made little to no sense at all. It makes the Reapers only impact look like idiots, yet Sovereign with a little speech and almost successful attack on the Citidal in ME 1 made the Reapers feel like a genuine threat.