[quote]littlezack wrote...
The Collectors targeted colonies that separated from the Alliance and went independent, and they attacked the colonies in such a way that nothing was left to suggest an attack. It was a big mystery, but people wouldn't even know what to demand action about. They have no idea what's going on. And that's even assuming the Alliance let the news about the disappearing colonies reach back to Earth. And fleeing the Terminus? It's that easy to just pick up an entire colony and vanish because of some rumors?[/quote]
Except on Horizon where they leave a massive smoking crater in the middle of it. They could start with "thousands of our families have been ruined and you're doing bloody nothing!" It would get some attention, especially with so many complaing. The big mystery is who is abducting the colonies, not that they are being abducted. So people would demand something be looked into or
anything, however the Alliance is content being indifferent. Earth is irrelevant, it has reached major hub worlds, there would be an outcry.
What rumor? There are hundred of thousands gone, which would spark a panic. People would leave in any way they could, even if just relocating to Omega or Illuim. Regardless, they would drive the Alliance insane bugging them. What happens in ME2 is akin to two hundred thousand people abruptly vanishing in New York city, and no one cares. Again, it would cause mass panic.
[quote]littlezack wrote...
The Normandy doesn't take out the Collector Ship 'with ease'; without the Thanix cannon, it almost gets destroyed in the fight. Also, the Normandy - especially the SR-2 - is no normal frigate. It's impossible to know it's exact destructive potential, but the Illusive Man probably outfitted it with the absolute best.[/quote]
That is a misconception due to poor schematics. See, the scene is exactly the same regardless of whether or not you have upgraded. What is to actually blame for the crash is the asinine instructions of "getting in close," which was wholly unnecessary. Now if you listen to the codex. It outright states the following,
"The Thanix can fire reliably every five seconds, rivaling a cruiser's firepower but mountable on a fighter or frigate."
The Thanix can be mounted on fighters, the smallest ship in Alliance military. This is another reason Harbinger's plan is ridiculous. If he invades Council space, he will be obliterated.
[quote]littlezack wrote...
An
Alliance colony. Again, the colonies the Collector's hit separated from the Alliance. It'd be like the British caring about something happening in America...right after the Revolutionary War.[/quote]
No, Udina is irate because a
human colony was destroyed. There inaction is one of the primary complaints for people in the Terminus. The issue becomes how inept or indifferent the Alliance wants to be. By ME2 it has reached such an exaggerated degree, it is a wonder
anyone ever trusts them. Granted, I'll concede this is more a problem with poor writing in the grander scheme of things than simply Harbinger's plan being bad, although it still is.
[quote]littlezack wrote...
You're making a lot of assumptions there. We don't know how long the Reaper-Human would've taken till completion - EDI made a guess,but it was just that - a guess, based on little knowledge. Also, keep in mind that the first thing the Collectors did, before even abducting colonies, was to kill Shepard. There's no way they could have anticipated Cerberus BRINGING HIM BACK FROM THE DEAD. The plan to create the human-reaper was a fairly safe one; nobody had ever successful gotten through the Omega-4 relay, nobody would ever suspect the Collectors of having the power to take whole colonies, and the Alliance doesn't even dare set foot in the Terminus system.[/quote]
No, again you missed a part. EDI says significantly more humans will be required and estimates well exceeding a million. This would take considerable time, especially when they are only targeting small colonies. Keep in mind Horizon was an unintended stop. Aye, the plan was to create a reaper and... do what with it? The entire point was to open the relay connecting to dark space, thus attacking the Citadel was a necessity. If that is not the objective, then what is the plan? What is the plot? It may have been fairly safe but if the narrative does not provide any exposition why they are doing this then it becomes contrived.
[quote]Goneaviking wrote...
EDI was able to provide assistance with the Collector Ship despite being under attack by malicious programming that had been put in place by the Collectors/Harbinger to take her out after EDI's unpredictable involvement on Horizon forced the Collectors to flee when it brought the colony's guns came online.
Even though Harbinger's trap failed he'd already put in place a contingency plan with the signal hidden inside the IFF that gave away the Normandy's location. If Shepherd and pals hadn't been deus ex machina'd into the tiny shuttle then they would have been either killed/captured by the collectors or spaced by EDI.
That's not bad planning really.[/quote]
EDI claims she can only interfere after she has finished downloading the information, later stating she is being overrun by firewalls. So while one could theory maybe, and that is a strong maybe, she has control of the one platforms Shepard is standing on. There still remains two issues. The first being, how did she can gain when Harbinger moved it devoid of any issues moments prior and EDI had apparently been blocked. Regardless, the second is why not just send another platform hurling into that one if they cannot move it? Likewise, EDI was accessing intel not manvuering things at that moment.
Finally if EDI's involvement was unanticipated, Harbinger is even more an idiot. She made herself a nuisance for him on Horizon and he did not consider she would be one again? Remember, the Collectors were luring Shepard onto the ship. Why Harbinger even allowed them aboard is ridiculous to begin with. Had he not attempted the very obvious ambush that Shepard embarrassingly walks straight into. EDI would not have scanned where the IFF was, which means no access to the Omega Relay.
That is not really a good plan.
[quote]Those relays are pretty damned tough, the Mu Relay took a massive asteroid hit and was thrown right out of citadel space a couple thousand years ago. It looked for all the world like they were unbreakable, even if the Reapers knew it could be done then they probably knew that the lesser species had every reason to believe it couldn't be done with their level of technology.[/quote]
Indeed, my point was it was proven possible. Frankly, I would not fault Harbinger so much because the entire thing is a blatant retcon. Mass Relays had previously been described as capable of surviving a supernova, the most intense explosion in existence. Ramming an asteroid into should never have done anything short of pushing it aside.
[quote]-snip- So yeah, Harbinger's plan isn't necessarily the big stupid it seems.[/quote]
The issues with Harbinger's plan is as followed...
- How long it will take to complete (Read: decades)
- It is reliant upon the ineptitude and indifference of the Council and Alliance respectively
- That no one destroys his only ship
- If successful, how are they going to take the Citadel
The Alliance's stance has always been the progression of humanity, while some are more cooperative with aliens than others, protecting their own is the primary objective. Udina flips out if a single human colony is attacked yet is completely indifferent in ME2? In fact, the Council warns him they will not risk conflict with the Terminus in Mass Effect, which is a clear indication it was never of any concern to him before. It would stand to reason they would not interfere if a few colonies vanished but hundreds of thousands are gone. This would spark an Alliance investigation even into the Terminus, or rather it should. Instead they remain indifferent and do nothing.
[quote]InvaderErl wrote...
It says in the codex that disruptor torpedos have to be fired at close ranges to be effective.[/quote]
True enough, although there is a difference between close range and literally being above the thing. The fact the disruptor torpedoes partially damaged the Collector Ship from a safer distance makes it a poor choice. Not to mention what the resulting debris would do when a ship that massive exploded.
[quote]InvaderErl wrote...
I'm not saying destroy the planet, I'm saying fly a ship (it doesn't even have to be Sovereign) over the Zhu's Hope colony that they apparently were spending days trying to crack and just wipe it out with a few shots. The Council/Alliance knew that Saren had a unique ship already anyway.
As for the Iilos relay, a single ship staring at the relay would have seen the relay activate as the Normandy approached, they knew after all Shepard had access to a stealth ship (it was even public knowledge!) and was after them and had been on their tails thus far. Saren/Sovereign practically go out of their way throughout ME1 to let Shep win.[/quote]
Any consequential damage to Feros would have given credence to Udina's arguments. He was willing to risk a war with the Terminus after all. If another colony was lost than the Alliance very well could have demanded action, something Saren did not wish to risk. His only mistake was not killing the Shiala, who I imagine he assumed was dead or the equivalent of indoctrinated. Shortsightedness on his part undoubtedly.
With regards to Ilos, I watched the
scene and there does seem to be ships around the relay, or that is the insinuation. The Normandy flies opposite of their trajectory, which means they would have passed by completely undetected. It is not necessary perfect but the plot adds up.
[quote]Which is Ash's cover story , the Illusive Man/Shepard and Delann outright say this.
The VS is emotional and what brought them to Horizon was the leaked info about Shep working for Cerberus. They calm down soon thereafter and see sense.[/quote]
VS' reason for being on Horizon was to determine if Cerberus was behind the attacks and only went there due to a tip from TIM. Coincidently, this leads to one of the worst dialogue sequences in the game, where VS is nothing a short a complete and utter moron. Being emotional is not an excuse for their baffling leap of logic. You know what? Someone on this forum hilariously summed up how ridiculous their whole scene is. So I will provide a link in lieu of reiterating, plus it is good for a laugh.
Second quote box[quote]The same Udina who betrays Shepard when its politically convenient? Udina cares about his career, stirring up trouble about the Terminus systems wouldn't be conducive to his career. [/quote]
Like I mentioned above, in Mass Effect, he is more than willing to do precisely that. Being on the Council is the highest honor for humanity. He has even less need to be concerned if people dislike his methods.
[quote]I disagree here, not so much on the Reaper design - if it had looked more squid-like I think the majority of the complaints would go away but the middle chapter of a trilogy always feels this way when we don't have the ending. One of the major complaints against ESB was that people felt like it didn't have an "ending of it own".[/quote]
It still requires them to explain the plot, which never happens. We do not why they are building this thing, what they intend to do with it, why was it shaped like a human and most importantly, why do they need organics to procreate? See that last one is fundamental to the story otherwise it completely falls apart. This in fact contradicts Sovereign who condemned organics as a generic accident. He would not make the comments he did if organics were necessary in their survival. I could go further into this however
Shamus Young covers it in explicit detail and this post is already enormous.
Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 08 juillet 2011 - 11:48 .
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