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Harbinger or Soveriegn?


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#176
Zkyire

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O Tucker wrote...

Sovereign took out half of our fleet...Harbinger sounds so cool and scary but so did Sovereign and he did say “We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.”


The Alliance only lost 8 cruisers in that battle, and some were from the Geth. Sovereign isn't as much of a badass as people are painting him to be.

Modifié par IEatWhatIPoo, 09 juillet 2011 - 03:50 .


#177
Priximus

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sovereign or harbinger? they are both bad ass and both had awesome speeches but there is a diffrence in the the voices Sovereigns were darker and add awesome dark music to that it gives another impretion than one who has a little lighter voice but without the awesome music it dont reach that content the 1st thing did. so my oppinion is that they are both awesome but that harbinger didnt get the same dark influencing inviroment ass sovereign wich makes an comparasment of these two completly unfair.

#178
Il Divo

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The Spamming Troll wrote...


if we didnt know soverigns intetnions, then hed be no different then harbinger. i see it as biowares way of telling the story to the player, not really a way in making soverign dumb for revealing his plans.


Then it's bad story-telling. Find a way to make it fit within the context of the game. In Sovereign's case, he's telling us that the Reapers are beyond our understanding, but effectively he's gloating about how superior he is to us.

That's basically saying that  it's okay for Sovereign to be dumb, because the game needed a delivery mechanism for the plot twist, which is not an excuse.

#179
Fhaileas

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Il Divo wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...


if we didnt know soverigns intetnions, then hed be no different then harbinger. i see it as biowares way of telling the story to the player, not really a way in making soverign dumb for revealing his plans.


Then it's bad story-telling. Find a way to make it fit within the context of the game. In Sovereign's case, he's telling us that the Reapers are beyond our understanding, but effectively he's gloating about how superior he is to us.


Not bad story-tellling at all -- the reveal was very well done and was utterly unexpected. Soverign didn't seem to be gloating (it's voice was emotionless) rather stating facts (as it knew them) to an insignificant creature it had taken a curious interest in.

Modifié par Fhaileas, 09 juillet 2011 - 04:28 .


#180
Il Divo

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Fhaileas wrote...


Not bad story-tellling at all -- the reveal was very well done and was utterly unexpected.


Unexpected simply means that it fits the definition of a plot twist. A good plot twist however must also take into account who delivers the twist and why.

Watchmen's Ozymandias deconstructs this style very well. Villains too often reveal their plans before they reach maturity, which then allows the hero a fighting chance, an opportunity they should never have been afforded in the first place.

Soverign didn't seem to be gloating (it's voice was emotionless) as stating facts (as it knew them) to an insignificant creature it had taken a curious interest in.


If a creature is insignificant, I typically do not take time to acknowledge its existence. There was no purpose in Sovereign revealing to Shepard his existence, or that the Reapers had built the relays. He's basically there to tell us that the Reapers are better/more advanced than us, which fits in very well with gloating.

Modifié par Il Divo, 09 juillet 2011 - 04:39 .


#181
littlezack

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I think Harbinger better understands the importance of subtlety. Sovereign tends towards major actions that draw unneeded attention towards himself. Attacking Eden Prime, for instance, drew the attention of the Alliance, but all Saren needed to do was access the beacon - he could have used his status as a Spectre to get close to it, or just snuck in. They didn't even know what the thing was, so it wouldn't have alerted that much of attention. At least not as much sending in a small army of geth and slaughtering every human in the way.

#182
Mister Mida

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littlezack wrote...

I think Harbinger better understands the importance of subtlety. Sovereign tends towards major actions that draw unneeded attention towards himself. Attacking Eden Prime, for instance, drew the attention of the Alliance, but all Saren needed to do was access the beacon - he could have used his status as a Spectre to get close to it, or just snuck in. They didn't even know what the thing was, so it wouldn't have alerted that much of attention. At least not as much sending in a small army of geth and slaughtering every human in the way.

He still had to dispose the beacon, making sure nobody got suspicious through the visions. So Saren and Sovereign needed an excuse to get it destroyed. No one was supposed to survive the attack and live to tell the tale. It got screwed up because a certain ship just happened to be in the vicinity at the moment, aka the Normandy.

If the Normandy wasn't around at that specific moment, Sovereign wouldn't have much trouble executing his plans. So basically, the Reaper invasion was postponed by chance.

Modifié par Mister Mida, 09 juillet 2011 - 04:43 .


#183
littlezack

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Destroying the beacon was actually pretty unnecessary, though. If someone just accessed the beacons, they might have learned about the Reapers, but they wouldn't have had any idea about Sovereign's current plans. At the very least, they wouldn't have been able to connect the dots in time to stop him. Attacking Eden Prime got the immediate attention of the Alliance and made Saren a target.

And that's assuming that just anybody can get the visions. I'm sure Manuel wasn't the only person to get near the beacon, but he was the only person on Eden Prime who seemed to experience it.

Modifié par littlezack, 09 juillet 2011 - 04:48 .


#184
Northern Sun

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Sovereign sounded better, but killing Harbinger will be so much more satisfying.

#185
littlezack

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 Which is another thing - I never liked the way Sovereign died. How does destroying him in Saren's body cause his shields to go down? That sounds like a pretty critical design flaw.

#186
E-MailA.K.A.Mr.Fox

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This debate is quite funny, Sovereign was the one who was left behind to do all the hard work, while the other Reapers are having coronas with lime in their resort in Dark Space. Except for Harbinger mingling with collectors and trying to make a new Reaper.
In all honesty, I don't like that Harbinger will be the Reaper leader in ME3, I always like the idea that every Reaper has their own role to play, not just following "Big Bad Ass" leader.... oh well..

#187
Guest_makalathbonagin_*

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Aw poor Sov, now you made me feel sorry for him :(
nah Harby .. i don't think he is the final leader ... xD

#188
Rattlehead424

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Sovereign all the way gave me goosebumps when i first heard him.

#189
Rattlehead424

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"We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite. Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten, we will endure. "

"Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything."

Sovereign had some of the best quotes .

#190
darthnick427

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IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

O Tucker wrote...

Sovereign took out half of our fleet...Harbinger sounds so cool and scary but so did Sovereign and he did say “We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.”


The Alliance only lost 8 cruisers in that battle, and some were from the Geth. Sovereign isn't as much of a badass as people are painting him to be.


Shepard ment they lost 8 crusiers saving the Destiney Ascention. They lost at least 5 more when they were fighting Soveriegn and the turians lost 20 crusiers though most were killed by the geth. Soverriegn totally bum rushed one turian crusier tho haha

#191
E-MailA.K.A.Mr.Fox

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What i want to know is, if there is something beyond Reapers? Is the citadel not only a gate to dark space, but also one of many relays between galaxies.....

#192
darthnick427

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Rattlehead424 wrote...

"We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite. Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten, we will endure. "

"Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything."

Sovereign had some of the best quotes .


"You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it."

Yeah pretty much the best quotes of all time

#193
Mister Mida

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littlezack wrote...

Destroying the beacon was actually pretty unnecessary, though. If someone just accessed the beacons, they might have learned about the Reapers, but they wouldn't have had any idea about Sovereign's current plans. At the very least, they wouldn't have been able to connect the dots in time to stop him. Attacking Eden Prime got the immediate attention of the Alliance and made Saren a target.

And that's assuming that just anybody can get the visions. I'm sure Manuel wasn't the only person to get near the beacon, but he was the only person on Eden Prime who seemed to experience it.

Maybe Sovereign didn't want to take that risk someone else besides Saren would receive the vision.

#194
darthnick427

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Priximus wrote...

sovereign or harbinger? they are both bad ass and both had awesome speeches but there is a diffrence in the the voices Sovereigns were darker and add awesome dark music to that it gives another impretion than one who has a little lighter voice but without the awesome music it dont reach that content the 1st thing did. so my oppinion is that they are both awesome but that harbinger didnt get the same dark influencing inviroment ass sovereign wich makes an comparasment of these two completly unfair.


That is very true actually. The scene with soveriegn had the atmosphere, the dark deep voice, and the ominous music. Those pretty much made his intro legendary. If harby had an intro like that it would make him closer to Sov's awesomeness level.

#195
Mister Mida

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I also don't think Harbinger is the Reaper 'leader'. Sovereign says that they're 'legion'. They can operate on their own. And if there's a leader, I'd rather not have it be Harbinger. He kinda ruined it for himself when it comes down to awesomeness.

#196
Varen Spectre

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Well when it comes to what each of them was supposed to represent, I think Sovereign (Nazara) was a better concept. However, thanks to excellent job done by Mass Effect fanbase :lol:, Harbinger grew on me much, much more and I wouldn't switch him and his memes threats for a more menacing leader / spokesman.

Nevertheless, I have a feeling that this guy...

Posted Image

... would have been my favorite if we had a chance meet him (I hope it's a guy) in person. The big bulky body, larger arms and agressive design of his head suggests, that he is supposed to be a "heavy guy" in the group. Hopefuly, he is not very bright.^_^ 

Modifié par Varen Spectre, 09 juillet 2011 - 05:35 .


#197
E-MailA.K.A.Mr.Fox

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There are at least 4 different reaper designs in just that cut scene.

#198
darthnick427

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I have a theory that the reaper that is the newest born becomes the reaper leader until the next reaper is created. Example: say Soveriegn was the leader and was left behind to have the glorious privledge of unleashing the reapers on the galaxy. Then he died. So the reaper that replaces him as leader was the reaper born before Soveriegn, in this case Harbinger. The human reaper would have been the leader once it was completed. The most recent becomes the leader because they are most familar with the current galaxy. That's just my theory anyway.

Modifié par darthnick427, 09 juillet 2011 - 05:59 .


#199
BatmanPWNS

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I like Harbinger more because you only talk to Soveriegn once while Harbinger is constantly pissing Shepard off and not to mention he is still alive after one game.

#200
Fhaileas

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Il Divo wrote...

If a creature is insignificant, I typically do not take time to acknowledge its existence. There was no purpose in Sovereign revealing to Shepard his existence, or that the Reapers had built the relays. He's basically there to tell us that the Reapers are better/more advanced than us, which fits in very well with gloating.


I respect you opinion as I hope you do mine. Let's just agree to disagree because neither of us is going to convince the other of the merits of  our respective arguments.



E-MailA.K.A.Mr.Fox wrote...

I always like the idea that every Reaper has their own role to play, not just following "Big Bad Ass" leader.... oh well..


Well, that "was" supposed to be the case -- Soverign itself stated that every Reaper is a nation unto itself. ME2 inanely changed that perspective (along with many other things).