221 réponses à ce sujet

[littlezack]

 How did ME2 change that?

There's nothing to indicate that Harbinger functions at the Reaper leader, or that Reapers even have differences of opinion on anything and require a real leader. He's the only Reaper that address you directly and he controls the Collectors, but there's no proof that he (or Sovereign, really) is unique or higher up on some Reaper heiarchy.

[Fhaileas]

littlezack wrote...

 How did ME2 change that?

There's nothing to indicate that Harbinger functions at the Reaper leader, or that Reapers even have differences of opinion on anything and require a real leader. He's the only Reaper that address you directly and he controls the Collectors, but there's no proof that he (or Sovereign, really) is unique or higher up on some Reaper heiarchy.

 

It's not explicit so I am indeed assuming that to be the case. I am fairly certain Harbinger will indeed be the numero uno and the "face" of the Reaper fleet.

[Pepper4]

Soveriegn. So many great quotes!

[Il Divo]

Fhaileas wrote...

I respect you opinion as I hope you do mine. Let's just agree to disagree because neither of us is going to convince the other of the merits of  our respective arguments.

Fair enough.

[Bluko]

littlezack wrote...

Bluko wrote...


So let's get rid of Harbinger and just pretend nothing really did happen in ME2 (which isn't too far from the truth).

It's actually pretty damn far from the truth, no matter how much ME2 haters like to pretend.

Well unless you count the dilemmas of your squadmates, Shepard did not accomplish much in the way of anything. A few squadmates present you with a few potential big issues (Mordin, Tali, Grunt, Legion) but you didn't actually resolve them except for Legion's issue to which the outcome yet remains unclear. I sincerely doubt finding Jacob's father for instance is going to have a major impact on the events of ME3, unless by chance Jacob's father knew something about the Reapers hence his reclusion. Although I highly doubt this, and doing such is somewhat tacky since such a thing isn't even hinted at.


Anyways as for the Collectors. The Collectors are just puppets of the Reapers, much like the Geth. In such an instance the Geth could just as easily have been the antagonists in ME2. Frankly it would have made more sense too given Legion's presence and the understated importance of his loyalty mission.

Admittedly the Collectors have some interesting and powerful technology. However as an actual threat they are pretty weak. They have one larger carrier which seems to only have one main weapon. As powerful as that canon may be the Collector Ship would be screwed if it ran into an actual fleet of military ships. The fact that it can be taken out by two well placed torpedos and that it can even sustain fire from GARDIAN Turrets shows that it's pretty weak. It's only advantage has been its reliance on sneak attacks, which frankly the Geth are should be just as adept at. The point here is that had the Collectors left the Terminus Systems they would have got their butts handed to them pretty fast.

Now there's probably a fair amount of Humans in the Terminus Systems, but it's unclear if there's enough colonists to actually complete a Reaper. Which makes the Collector plan very suspect.

And this brings us to the only redeeming aspect of ME2's story. That is: the Collectors are collecting humans so the Reapers' can use our DNA and raw organic material to construct a new Reaper. Now I'm all fine with the Reapers harvesting organics. It's heavily hinted that this is well the case by Sovereign, the way the Reapers let civilizations grow, and the fact their name is the Reapers. (A Reaper by definition is something or someone that harvests crops.) But the manner in which such is shown and presented in ME2 is just nothing short of bad. There is no real build-up to even suggest we we're going to find a Reaper. It was merely dropped in our laps at the very end to give the game some credence as a sequel.

Were it not for the very end of ME2 the whole purpose of the Collectors would seem to have been little more then an effort to weaken humanity. And in some ways I think this almost would have been better as it's only been largely due to Humanity that any Reapers have been destroyed.

The best reasoning for the Human Reaper existence as far as I can tell is in another attempt to reclaim the Citadel. Now let's assume Shepard didn't stop the Collectors. It would have likely taken the Collectors several months, probably years to finish their Reaper. Let's also assume the Reapers managed to fully take over the Geth as well. Now I'd agreed such a force would be hard to stop. However by that time the Citadel would very likely be prepared for this. The problem is this is still a very risky plan and the Reaper with the Geth must force their way onto the Citadel as the Conduit is no longer available to get agents on the Citadel.

The question is why wouldn't the Reapers just opt to spend this time traveling to our galaxy? Much of the element of surprise has been lost and while the Citadel is an important target they could just as easily send a dozen or so Reapers in their invasion to get it under control anyways. The Human Reaper and Geth are a pretty lousy plan unless the Geth fleet is large enough that it can start a full Galactic War. Even still the plan seems needless. And we can't be certain this is the case either.


All Shepard did was screw up the Reapers' Pre-Invasion Plan C in ME2. Which doesn't really seem that great of plan. I guess you could argue Shepard saved a lot of Human Colonists by doing so. But this means little when we are faced with total extinction looming over the horizon in a few years. Shepard does absolutely nothing to learn anything more about the Reapers which might just be what we need to survive. Instead we play a game of tag with the Collectors and ultimately kill them all. As a sequel it failed the purpose of providing any sort of meaningful exposition on the Reapers. What little expostion was provided should have been apparent in ME1. All ME2 does is confirm things we basically already should have known. And that is why I say "nothing" happens in ME2. That is why I find Harbinger a nuisance. It does nothing to move the story forward and we are in the same position more or less that we were at the end of ME1.

Remember at the end of ME1 what Shepard says? "The Reapers are still out there. And I'm going to find a way to stop them." This is what ME2 should have been about. If you're going to do a trilogy it needs to actually constitute one. So for example...

ME1: We learn of the Reaper threat
ME2: We learn more about the Reapers and or prepare for the upcoming battle
ME3: We fight the Reapers

What we got...

ME1: We learn of the Reaper threat
ME2: Filler
ME3: We fight the Reapers while trying to learn more so we can actually win

In ME2 we learn little or nothing new. We certainly don't learn anything immediately useful anyways. We do almost next to nothing to actually prepare for the upcoming battle unless you count the neutralization of the Collectors. But again they are such a minor threat at best when compared to a Reaper armada.

So yeah go figure I dislike Harbinger and the Collectors. Their presence really only serves only the purpose of getting a wacky team together to go on a special mission which is contrived from start to finish. ME2 is great if you think of it as an expansion, but bad if you think of it as an actual sequel.

[littlezack]

 Well unless you count the dilemmas of your squadmates, Shepard did not accomplish much in the way of anything. A few squadmates present you with a few potential big issues (Mordin, Tali, Grunt, Legion) but you didn't actually resolve them except for Legion's issue to which the outcome yet remains unclear. I sincerely doubt finding Jacob's father for instance is going to have a major impact on the events of ME3, unless by chance Jacob's father knew something about the Reapers hence his reclusion. Although I highly doubt this, and doing such is somewhat tacky since such a thing isn't even hinted at.

Sometimes I wonder if people who say things like this even played the game. Just off the top of my head-

Potentially creating a cure for the genophage.
Potentially having the Collector Base
Making Grunt one of the most recognized and noteworthy Krogan on the whole planet.
Rewriting the Heretic Geth
Gaining the trust of the Quarian Fleet

These are all things that could have a potentially huge impact in the fight with the Reapers, or at least in the long-term, and that's just the stuff off the top of my head. Saying ME2 accomplished nothing is just being dense.

In ME2 we learn little or nothing new. We certainly don't learn anything immediately useful anyways. We do almost next to nothing to actually prepare for the upcoming battle unless you count the neutralization of the Collectors. But again they are such a minor threat at best when compared to a Reaper armada.

Again, just off the top of my head - we learn Sovereign's true name, we learn his true relationship with the geth, we learn (and stop) how Reapers reproduce, we learn what they do with the species they dominate, And that's just the Reaper related stuff, not to mention the stuff we learn about Asari, Krogan, and Quarian culture.

Modifié par littlezack, 10 juillet 2011 - 01:54 .

[gesco420]

I'm going with Harbinger because I think we just got a little taste of what he is all about in me2. Sovereign was cool but he is dead and Harbinger taunted Shep through the Collectors all throughout me2 and it's dlc so now to get at it in me3 is going to be great.

[AfricanShepard]

 I am not insulting or in anyway detracting from any one's opinion, however, I feel as though Sovereign was, hands down, the most bad-ass Reaper of the two. Harbinger was indeed crucial to the Reaper's plot, I mean he oversaw the construction of a new Reaper right outside the Terminus Systems, but Sovereign bypassed all of that by attempting to use the Citadel to continue the cycle of extinction that had persisted in that Galaxy for thousands of years. In my opinion, if Soveriegn had not been so dismissive of Shepard's ability to stop his progress and had focused more on making sure Shepard didn't succeed(instead of just relying on Saren to deal with any disruptiongs), Soveriegn might well have opened that Mass Relay and released the Reaper menace onto the Mass Effect galaxy. That and it took an Alliance fleet not just the Normandy, to end stop his plans. Soveriegn 1, Harbinger 0.

[robarcool]

I prefer Sovereign. His talk in Virmire is far more threatening than Harby's one-liners heard throughout the game. Harbinger did seem to gain some maturity at the end of Arrival though. As for their sizes, I think they both belong to the largest of the reapers.

[Pride Demon]

I'll reiterate my love for both... But seeing as Harbinger seems to get much more bashing than he deserves, allow me to play devil's advocate, to even the odds... Keep in mind these are all my humble opinions...

First allow me to voice my opinion that Sovereign vs. Harbinger is a rehashing of the old conflict cool villain vs competent villain (yeah, that's a bold statement but it's just my opinion, so no need to bash on me, ok?).
Sovvie appears to be liked for his awesome lines and fear inducing aura (and I agree those make him great), but that's not what defines a successful villain: if a villain could go on on ominousness alone, Sauron (the film incarnation, the one in the books is rendered a bit better) and the nazgul leader would still be alive...

But let's not take tangents, allow me to explain exactly why I think Harbinger is a fairly competent villain, even if maybe not a glamorous or "cool" one...

1) He killed Shepard... This alone is more than any other bad guy has achieved ever... You may say  "but other baddies have killed me", however Harbinger move (unlike that of other random enemies) is canon...
Because yes, there IS a canon, not in choices but in context that happens regardless: Eden Prime is always attacked, Shepard always made Spectre, the Thorian, Saren, Benezia and Sovvie always die, The Normandy is always destroyed and Shepard always killed in the Collector surprise attack, etc...

More than anything, aren't you all always pushing for a more silent Harbinger? When he destroyed the normandy he was utterly silent, didn't even bothered say who he was or why he attacked... No gloating, no mocking, no explaining, simply annihilating... Now, if Harby is THAT effective when he shuts up, I'd prefer he kept talking...

2) He is savvy enough not to trust Shep to be dead just because the Normandy exploded and "No one could survive that!"... He wanted to see Shep's corpse... Know for certain he/she was 100% dead, he also may have yet undisclosed plans for Shep's body we don't know of... Which brings me to the next point...

3) He never ever bothers revealing what his plans are... Unlike Sovvie, who basically spills the beans and confirms to Reaper threat, Harby's only words for Shep are taunts... Why should he even tell Shepard what he is doing? His plans are not Shep's business anyway, and tipping him/her off could put them at risk...

Even during the Suicide mission Shep still doesn't know he wanted to melt people down, and even then he didn't yet know why...
The only way Shep had to find out Harby's plan was to discover it the hard way (that is seeing it), this is why the Human reaper larva hits you like a two ton brick in the head (I for one would have never expected THAT, did you?)...

4) He never ever gives Shepard any advantage: he fights through middle men at any given time... Basically Sheps actions are useless, it doesn't matter how many Harbingers he/she kills, "[he] always come[s] back!"... Harby let's Shep chase a ghost: out of all the various possessed drones only one mattered, the general (who is Harby's avatar, the way Saren was Sovvie's), do we ever fight (or even see) it? No...

Dead Avatar = HEAVY damage to the reaper controlling it... Harby knows it and only let's you fight proxys, while his main "body" rested easily in the Collector base...

Many lament the fact you never fight Harby directly (or even that he never tries to fight you himself), but if you had an army of expendable mooks you can posses from a distance, so you can fight without risk for yourself, and said mooks are constantly cloned so you never run out, would you honestly bother showing yourself? Obviously not: Harby is not a knight, or even a noble demon, he is a villain and a manipulative bastard! Why give your enemy a sporting chance at killing you if you can avoid it?

5) He taunts you in battle... Seriously am I the only one that thinks that maybe, just maybe, Harby is employing something called psychological warfare? You say he is annoying? Wonderful, that's exactly what he wants, to annoy you and make you distracted...

Let's use "Insanity" as an example (as it makes things more clear)...
From my experience, in Insanity there always at least one Harbinger around at any given time and they always spout "nonsense" at you... Whenever a collector is hurt he is more likely to be possessed... Doesn't that constant possessing, taunting and trolling get on your nerves (if you were on Shep's place maybe)? Wouldn't you want to start shouting back, or even better run up to him and beat him to death with his own spise just so he will SHUT UP? Wouldn't that make you pretty dead? That's all there is to it...

Given the situation he/she is in, a distracted Shep is a dead Shep, and Harby knows it... That's why he taunts you, also try and not think he is the one that wants to kill you, he is just the decoy. Which brings me to the next point...

6) He at least knows what combat tactics means... Harby's taunts are very easy to hear, and he goes "WE ARE HARBINGER!" and the like as he possesses... Generally when he appears one focuses on him to the expense of all the rest, on Insanity I notice he aggressively tries to push you out of cover (by either flanking you or using his concussion attack) then he generally utters "CONCENTRATE ON SHEPARD!"...
Put two and two together and you see he only distracts you and keeps you on the open so the MOOKS can kill you: against him I died more due to those damn Assassins particle beams than to Harby's actual attacks (that are easier to dodge with a bit of practice)...

Also a few personal opinions about other things I saw around (Note: Bluko, this I quote from you, but don't think I'm bashing you or directing these at you specifically: I have the most respect for your views and opinions, I just need your post to give out these things in an orderly fashion... So peace... ;P)...

Bluko wrote...

However as an actual threat they are pretty weak.

Of course they are... People seems to think they are an army, but they are not, they are little more than scientists and researchers; if they were strong soldiers why would Sovereign bother using Geth? As Collectors have advanced technology (more so than the Geth since it's Reaper tech), they would be better armed to begin with and Sovvie being a Collector vessel would make more sense than it being Geth...

The reason Sovvie used Geth is that Collectors are VERY WEAK as frontline fighters (a team of less than 12 persons can hold them off, come on!), they excell at scientific reserch and stealth attacks, that's their purpose...

Bluko wrote...

The point here is that had the Collectors left the Terminus Systems they would have got their butts handed to them pretty fast.

True. But why would they ever want to leave it? Like I said they are not fighters, they are "scientists" with a love for kidnapping... That's what they are BUILT for... I doubt the Reapers would have thrown them at the Alliance...

The way to their base is in the Terminus, kidnapping is easier in the Terminus, I say stay in the Terminus, maybe rely on slavers (as they, in fact, DO) to take someone from the borsdering colonies at the flages of Council space, but then the attack is pinned on slavers, not Collectors...

Bluko wrote...
Now there's probably a fair amount of Humans in the Terminus Systems, but it's unclear if there's enough colonists to actually complete a Reaper. Which makes the Collector plan very suspect.

And who said they were ever meant to complete it... ;P
See further down for what I mean...

Bluko wrote...
There is no real build-up to even suggest we we're going to find a Reaper. It was merely dropped in our laps at the very end to give the game some credence as a sequel.

True... But what kind of foreshadowing would actually be believable from an in-story perspective? Since most people think Collectors and Reapers to be a myth, and Collectors are explicitly said not to be very forthcoming about their motives there are only two options:

- Finding something regarding it on the Collector vessel. But then again it was a trap... Why would Harby let important info like that hanging around for someone to find, when he knows Shep will board the ship? He/she will probably not leave, but who wants to take such a risk... It's already strange enough he even left the stuff regarding the Protheans, but maybe finding all the ship's records wiped would have been suspicious...

- Harby gloats and tells Shep about it. Too bad Harby is smarter than that (as said above)...

Since none of these are applicable, nothing short of a Deus Ex Machina (that everyone says are SO bad) could have given Shep info about the Human Reaper larva... Bioware decided every kind of revealing would have been too unrealistic and as such the larva came about as lacking foreshadowing, the fact no one could have imagined that is however totally REALISTIC from the chars POV...

Bluko wrote...
The best reasoning for the Human Reaper existence as far as I can tell is in another attempt to reclaim the Citadel.

This is something I disagree with... It's my opinion people put much more importance on the larva than Harby himself was...
In fact I believe the larva's purpose to be... Ready? NONE...
It was just there to be this cycle's Reaper, no citadel attacking, Geth rousing or anything else...

Creating a Reaper is a LONG expensive process, this cycle is already overdue by 2000 years if the Rachni queen is to be believed... Harby simply thought "Hmm... Humans are good as goo... There are a lot that can be caught without attracting attention... The Geth attract too much... So let's order the drones to start the process, when they run out of "material" we barge in through the Alpha Relay and complete the work, but at least we'll have a head start to make up for the time wasted till now..."

The reasoning is similar to that of a man having to dust a three stories high building and being late... Would he rather have to do all the work by himself later still or rather have some friends dust at least the first floor so by the time he actually arrives some of the work is done?

So to quote the SB "You action is barely an interruption, all your presence costs me is time..."

Bluko wrote...
The question is why wouldn't the Reapers just opt to spend this time traveling to our galaxy? Much of the element of surprise has been lost and while the Citadel is an important target they could just as easily send a dozen or so Reapers in their invasion to get it under control anyways.

Right... But those twelve Reapers would have to reach our galaxy... How? Obviously traveling towards it and using the Alpha Relay... However, since it takes the same amount of time, and they are in no way stealthier anyway, why send twelve and wait for them to open the Citadel (alerting every sapient species in the galaxy at the same time) when they can easily send their whole fleet in and use the Alpha Relay therefore attacking with the crushing strength of their whole armada? Even better, since there's so many, why no use the Alpha relay to dispatch some here and some there in the galaxy to keep the organic forces disorganized?

Bluko wrote...
I guess you could argue Shepard saved a lot of Human Colonists by doing so. But this means little when we are faced with total extinction looming over the horizon in a few years.

Actually, following what I said above, stopping the Collectors might in fact be (indirectly) the only reason Earth can be saved...

Harbinger constantly shouts "THE DEAD ARE USELESS!" and given what we saw in the Suicide mission, the Reapers need LIVE subjects for gooyfication...
Had the Collector plan to empty out all the humans in Terminus worked out, the Reaper larva would have been well on the way to completion, that means less need to keep humans alive: the Reapers come and wreak everything, they only need a small fraction of the original number alive anyway, and organics are more remissive when you massacre most of them...

Now instead, the Reapers have to do everything from scratch... That means using a gentler approach: they can't pummel humanity too much or they won't have the numbers to sustain Reaperification anymore... The trailer itself seems to indicate people are dying quite slowly on Earth... Since they have to spend time gathering, Shepard has time to call for help...

Bluko wrote...
Shepard does absolutely nothing to learn anything more about the Reapers which might just be what we need to survive.

This I partly agree with, but then again we know it in hindsight...
From an in universe perspective Shep has no idea what the whole Collector business was all about, apart from the fact they worked for the Reapers and kidnapped humans, till the very end, since Harby is smart enough to keep his mouth shut on what's important...

For all Shep knew in the beginning, the Collectors may as well be building a giant teleportation device to throw the Reapers right on top of every known planet... For all he/she knew he/she was going to find something, or was on his/her way to foil an important Reaper plot...
After all if Shep knew what course of action to follow in order to gain infos on how to kill the Reapers, he/she would have said info already...

The rest I mainly agree, but then again having the second episode in a trilogy being there as a way to connect the beginning to the end is something that happens often... VERY often... So often I feel no ned to blame Bioware for it, I find ME2 very enterataining anyway...

Just my two (long XD) cents...

[naledgeborn]

Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.

[Pride Demon]

naledgeborn wrote...

Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.

Yeah... Love his quotes too, they are cool no doubt...
One has to note however, said rudimentary creature understood enough to be capable of killing him... Just saying...

[SkittlesKat96]

Bluko wrote...

It was a lot of filler but it still did a good job at expanding the universe and setting things up. The plot could have been better but I think your looking at the game too harshly, its still a sequel even if you and others don't agree.

[TorulfAmell]

I completely agree with everything the Pride Demon said.

[Shepard Lives]

Pride Demon has an excellent point. I like Sovereign because of his presence, and Harbinger because of his actions. Harby should get Sovereign's PR agent to work for him and then he'd be an almost perfect villain.

[Ja5ck]

 Sovereign was much more menacing. His voice was much more mechanical and more, well, disturbing... so yeah, Sovereign gets my vote

[Rogue Unit]

Sovereign, besides his quotes, was a failure. He failed three times to activate the Citadel Relay. C'mon.

[Tree fox]

What both of the Reapers say at the points in the game where they actually talk to you:

Sovereign - "You are not Saren. Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding. There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it. I am beyond your comprehension. I am Sovereign! Reaper? A label created by the Protheans to give voice to their destruction. In the end, what they choose to call us is irrelevant. We simply are. Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You whither and die. We are eternal. The pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything. Confidence born of ignorance. The cycle cannot be broken. The pattern has repeated itself more times than you can fathom. Organic civilizations rise, evolve, advance. And at the apex of their glory, they are extinguished. The Protheans were not the first. They did not create the Citadel. They did not forge the mass relays. They merely found them, the legacy of my kind. Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays, our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution. You exist because we allow it. And you will end because we demand it. We have no beginning. We have no end. millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten, we will endure. Your words are as empty as your future. I am the vanguard of your destruction. This exchange is over."

Harbinger - "Human, you've changed nothing. Your species has the attention of those infinitely your greater. That which you know as Reapers are your salvation through destruction."

Harbinger (Arrival) - Shepard. You have become an annoyance. You fight against inevitability. Dust struggling against cosmic winds. This seems a victory to you. A star system sacrificed. But even now, your greatest civilizations are doomed to fall. Your leaders will beg to serve us. Know this as you die in vain: Your time will come. Your species will fall. Prepare yourselves for the Arrival."

Based on THAT, you can make a decision instead of using Harbingers battle lines.

[CaptREDKangaroo]

Harbinger reminds me of Megatron (not in voice) so I don't know just his actual lines... Soverign had a better "voice" and cool lines but Harbinger is built up obviously - and I love his final lines at the end of the SM - "Releasing Control" - poor collector ...

[Mr. Gogeta34]

I still think Harbinger is awesome. I don't care what anyone else says. = )

[Thalador]

Pride Demon wrote...

4) Dead Avatar = HEAVY damage to the reaper controlling it... Harby knows it and only let's you fight proxys, while his main "body" rested easily in the Collector base...

While completely true, I always get the feeling that the Collector General retained some control over its body, and he "let" Harbinger do the talk and lead the battles, while he did the "logistics," commanded the Collector vessel to the targeted locations (mostly the colonies + Alchera (the planet where they destroyed the first Normandy)* + deep space where they set the trap for Shep), oversaw the construction of the Human-Reaper (inorganic material - cuttlefish frame + deciding when to load in genetic paste into the Reaper itself)**, and of course still arranged the "normal" trading with merc groups (offering craploads of money for rare specimens showing interesting mutations), individuals (giving Collector tech to Okeer for dozens of cloned krogan, and agreeing to spare the colony where Dr Robert O'Loy's lover/wife lived in exchange for the Prothean orb), and the vorcha (virus testing on Omega).

However, this "feeling" isn't really based on strong facts, more like on the very last moments Harby and the General "spent together:" The General desperately tries to regain control over the station, avert the imminent reactor overload and/or save what could be saved. In the meantime, Harbinger mocks Shepard that he's achived nothing, only delayed the inevitable, bla-bla-bla. Then, he turns back to the general, and tells it that it has failed its master(s), and right before he releases control, the General stretches out its pincer towards Harby's hologram, as if it is trying to beg for forgiveness, a second chance, or just not to abandon it in death (the General's eyes are still glowing, showing that Harbinger is "inside").

Also, if it had been Harbinger doing everything, he probably wouldn't have told off the general that it had failed the Reapers. That would be really extreme, harsh, and stuck-up, even in Reaper standards. I think Harby would've just simply released control after mocking the fleeing Shepard.

* Debatable, as Alchera assault was completely directed at killing Shepard - seems like Harby's idea. Horizon is a mystery to me, as it could be a "two birds with one stone" case, if they did truly know that the Commander's former crewmember was there. If so, Harby's second plan to get its tentacles on Shepard's body. And then the deep space trap which also reeks of another plot to capture Shepard('s body). A bit off-topic: I really wonder what was Sovereign's last transmission to his brethren about Shepard - probably the second report about "us" (the first being the conversation on Virmire). Shepard... killed... me. Avange ......... *cosmic backround radiation/noice*

** Also debatable, as only a Reaper could really know how to build another Reaper. So it might have been one of the chores of "Genbinger." (That name is terrible, so simply: the form in which the Collector General fully lets the Reaper control its body for the time it was designing the Human-Reaper.)

^ Personal counter-counter-arguement to the above points: however, these things could've been done through "whispers" from Harby to the General, giving his avatar orders, and then letting it fulfill them.

Tl;dr: The General was still an avatar, but not to the same extent as Saren to Sovereign.

Modifié par Thalador, 21 juillet 2011 - 05:34 .

[x Foul Mouth x]

Sovereign bye a mile