291 réponses à ce sujet

[rolson00]

ok so i came across this and he really does make some very good points (here) and has a bit of humor in it too

Scott Nichols wrote...
Well, if you ask the detractors, it’s all for the sake of a consistent story. After all, even in a science fiction universe with sentient jellyfish, monotone elephant-creatures performing Hamlet, and ancient robo-organic hybrid monsters from deep space, the idea that even one character could turn out to be gay or bi in the third act would really push a player’s suspension of disbelief.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Scott Nichols wrote...

I can’t predict what will happen in Mass Effect 3, but when I play I know that it will be my responsibility to ensure Shepard’s actions are consistent with the persona I have attached to him for the past two games. That same responsibility falls on every person who plays the game, whether they accept it or not. If a same-sex romance option is inconsistent with how you see the characters, well, that’s why it’s an option and not a requirement.

...

Choice and interaction set videogames apart from other mediums, and those who aren’t prepared to take some narrative responsibility for those choices might as well just watch a movie instead.

Yeah, I like this article.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 08 juillet 2011 - 01:26 .

[Eurhetemec]

It's a good article. The only thing he doesn't address is Mass Effect's historical problems separating friendship from romance, but hopefully, given that even DA2 (despite being regarded as bad by many) was able to make this distinction very strongly and clearly, ME3 will manage it.

[Xewaka]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Scott Nichols wrote...
I can’t predict what will happen in Mass Effect 3, but when I play I know that it will be my responsibility to ensure Shepard’s actions are consistent with the persona I have attached to him for the past two games. That same responsibility falls on every person who plays the game, whether they accept it or not. If a same-sex romance option is inconsistent with how you see the characters, well, that’s why it’s an option and not a requirement.
(...)
Choice and interaction set videogames apart from other mediums, and those who aren’t prepared to take some narrative responsibility for those choices might as well just watch a movie instead.

Yeah, I like this article.

I now have to get in contact with the writer to ask how can one play a coherent character when the knowledge of wether the dialogue choice is consistent or not is hidden behind an obsfucatory and uninformative system.

[Luigitornado]

My only problem about this thing is how overly forceful the gay community might be when insisting that Shepard and other characters are bisexual just because they are given the option of having a relationship with the same sex (that includes horrific fan art).

I stand by the whole "if my Shepard didn't initiate it, then s/he is not interested" statement.

Oh and I like how the writer compared fantastical elements of a video game to relationships. Relationships in ME, at its core; even with different races, are probably one of those most relatable non-fantastical elements in the game. You can't simply say in a "world with talking jellyfish" and apply the same logic to sexuality.

Yesss, I do understand people struggle with discovering their sexuality for many years or whatever. But don't get your hopes up in that Bioware will make a story out of it: maleShep struggles with his sexuality and his strong feelings with Kaiden while trying to save the galaxy. It won't happen. What we will get is just a maleShep able to openly flirt with a male character with no inner conflict about his sexuality at all, which makes the whole "I'm gay in the third act of the game..." less believable unless you were to assume that he was always bisexual...which means we are back to the intial problem.

I foresee some players telling me they'll simply dodge all romantic options in the first two game, to make it more believable that their character is gay in the third. "If my Shepard didn't initiate it, the s/he is not intersted." Have fun


BTW this was hardly a must read. It's no different than every other argument that is for homosexual relationships in ME.

Modifié par Luigitornado, 08 juillet 2011 - 02:26 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Eh, he's a bit off on a couple things.

Just because you may not necessarily agree with him, doesn't mean he's "a bit off."   You need to show your work.

You're completely free to disagree with him, however.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 08 juillet 2011 - 02:11 .

[Nodscouter]

His opinion is that he's a bit off, that's practically the same as disagreeing you know.

[Youknow]

Luigitornado wrote...

My only problem about this thing is how overly forceful the gay community might be when insisting that Shepard and other characters are bisexual just because they are given the option of having a relationship with the same sex (that includes horrific fan art).

I stand by the whole "if my Shepard didn't initiate it, then s/he is not interested" statement.

Oh and I like how the writer compared fantastical elements of a video game to relationships. Relationships in ME at its core, even with different races, are probably one of those most relatable non-fantastical elements in the game. You can't simply say in a "world with talking jellyfish" and apply the same logic to sexuality.

Yesss, I do understand people struggle with discovering their sexuality for many years or whatever. But don't get your hopes up in that Bioware will make a story out of it: maleShep struggles with his sexuality and his strong feelings with Kaiden. It won't happen. What we will get is just a maleShep able to openly flirt with a male character with no inner conflict about his sexuality at all, which makes the whole "I'm gay in the third act of the game..." less believable unless you were to assume that he was always bisexual...

I foresee some players telling me they'll simply dodge all romantic options in the first two game, to make it more believable that their character is gay in the third. "If my Shepard didn't initiate it, the s/he is not intersted." Have fun


BTW this was hardly a must read. It's no different than every other argument that is for homosexual relationships in ME.

I really haven't seen the gay community be overly forceful. It's the same way people foolishly say things like "Sheperd is canonically male." And the horrific fan arts certainly aren't limited to gender. 

Sure, that's fine, but that's still your Sheperd. I know I haven't developed feelings for certain people until I got to know them better. The same could apply for Sheperd(s). 

And yeah, you can apply that logic. As some of them, like the Asari, have some strange thoughts on it. Most people wouldn't even consider dating someone that would compartively die a couple of years down the road in the relationship. Yet the asari see it as fine. Asari also prefer dating outside of their race. I'd really like to know of a culture that actively encourages this and frowns on same race relationships.

And unfortunately, you're probably right on this. MaleSheperd will probably say something like "Ever heard of 'don't ask don't tell?'" And then proceed to act like Kaidan is any other romance option in the game. That said, it's still easy to rationalize. The Reapers are coming and basically the end of the galaxy. If I'm going to be openly gay/bi, may as well do it when everyone is distracted by the end of the galaxy. And when I might die to not have to face people's wrath. 

Except some people didn't dodge them. I had a Sheperd that just never found anyone. He'll probably remain single as well avoiding the pesky romances in general. 

And the article is still pretty good. 

[Rinji the Bearded]

Luigitornado wrote...

My only problem about this thing is how overly forceful the gay community might be when insisting that Shepard and other characters are bisexual just because they are given the option of having a relationship with the same sex (that includes horrific fan art).

I stand by the whole "if my Shepard didn't initiate it, then s/he is not interested" statement.

I'll keep my arguments short because I highly doubt they'll be considered.

Please consider this link for a moment before I continue.

Everyone will interpret Shepard the way they want to -- and that's kind of the point.  As for the other characters -- if they are made bisexual, you can take your problems up with the writers I guess.

Luigitornado wrote...

Oh and I like how the writer compared fantastical elements of a video game to relationships. Relationships in ME at its core, even with different races, are probably one of those most relatable non-fantastical elements in the game. You can't simply say in a "world with talking jellyfish" and apply the same logic to sexuality.

I don't know how this would support not making any former LI bisexual, however, because people do realistically have changes of heart regarding their orientation.  Happens all the time.

Luigitornado wrote...

Yesss, I do understand people struggle with discovering their sexuality for many years or whatever. But don't get your hopes up in that Bioware will make a story out of it: maleShep struggles with his sexuality and his strong feelings with Kaiden. It won't happen. What we will get is just a maleShep able to openly flirt with a male character with no inner conflict about his sexuality at all, which makes the whole "I'm gay in the third act of the game..." less believable unless you were to assume that he was always bisexual...

Just as we're able to interpret that femshep and Garrus's relationship has changed to an emotional bond that overcomes a species barrier, the player would be free to interpret maleshep flirting with another guy was a coming out of sorts.  It's not up to you to interpret how other people see their Shepards.

Luigitornado wrote...
I foresee some players telling me they'll simply dodge all romantic options in the first two game, to make it more believable that their character is gay in the third. "If my Shepard didn't initiate it, the s/he is not intersted." Have fun

I know people that skipped the romance options merely because they didn't want romances in their games.  And guess what -- romances are optional.  If someone wants to dodge romances in the first two games and then go full out homosexual in ME3, the game completely supports that decision. 

Also, a bisexual Shepard is fine too.

[slimgrin]

 "If a same-sex romance option ruins a character’s consistency in Mass Effect 3, you only have your own choices to blame."


^ Bullsh*t.

Modifié par slimgrin, 08 juillet 2011 - 02:32 .

[shepskisaac]

Luigitornado wrote...
But don't get your hopes up in that Bioware will make a story out of it: maleShep struggles with his sexuality and his strong feelings with Kaiden while trying to save the galaxy.

Frankly, I don't think anyone wants it really. Just like nobody wanted to make a big story out of giving Shep an option to romance Tali & Garrus.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Nodscouter wrote...

His opinion is that he's a bit off, that's practically the same as disagreeing you know.

Semantics, but saying "he's a bit off" is a lot different than saying "I think he's a bit off."  The first phrase suggests an expression of fact and the latter expresses an opinion.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 08 juillet 2011 - 02:36 .

[slimgrin]

And another gem:

"But when playing as a male Shepard, I can’t recall a single time when Garrus or Kaiden made any reference to their sexual orientation. Likewise with Ashley when playing as a female Shepard. As far as relationship options go, these characters are blank slates."

According to Bioware, every charcter is a blank slate now.

[shepskisaac]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...
I really hate this argument. I find this to be quite dumb to be honest, as this can be applied to anything. Because a character never said it, that means they can be? Garrus could also be a woman, because he never said he was a man. That's just cheap and lame.

Oh but he described the characteristics of male Turians and considering he has them, it's obvious he's a male. Unlike hairstyle, or eyes color, or horns (Turians) you can't tell someone's sexual orientation just by looking at him/her. Sexual orientation does not make anyone display unique body features/characteristics.

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...
Yes, it's confirmed that characters will be reactive to Shepard, but what if we wish to avoid it? A friendship path? It's been confirmed that there will be more friendship dialouge, but I wonder exactly how much we are talking, and how obvious the "leading to romance" options are. I don't want to select a friendly option, but it leads to romance just because I want to get to know a character. Sushewakka's comment is a good one.

Ain't a problem of gay romances specifically.

[Youknow]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Nodscouter wrote...

His opinion is that he's a bit off, that's practically the same as disagreeing you know.

Semantics, but saying "he's a bit off" is a lot different than saying "I think he's a bit off."  The first phrase suggests an expression of fact and the latter expresses an opinion.

Generally on forums, it's understood that people are expressing opinions. Unless the person flat out states that they have some authority on it, it's safe to assume their words are opinions. Not everyone is a master of languages and communication. I know I'm not. 

[Mystranna Kelteel]

slimgrin wrote...
And another gem:
"But when playing as a male Shepard, I can’t recall a single time when Garrus or Kaiden made any reference to their sexual orientation. Likewise with Ashley when playing as a female Shepard. As far as relationship options go, these characters are blank slates."
According to Bioware, every charcter is a blank slate now.

They are mostly blank slates.  Garrus and Kaidan make references to liking at least one woman in the past, which leaves both bisexuality and heterosexuality on the table as options.

And BioWare has said they'll never make a strictly gay character, so, yeah, they're still free to define the character's sexuality either way and have it be completely in character.

[SSV Enterprise]

Sexuality influences how I view other characters. I can honestly say that if a character was homosexual, that would make her less appealing for my Shepard, because in real life, such a clash with my morals is a red flag for me.

With that said, I don't have a problem with same sex romance being in the game in general. Particularly, I wouldn't mind if characters that were originally written in ME2 to be bi, such as Miranda, Tali, and Thane, were made so in ME3. I just don't want the game to unrealistically portray everyone as bi.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...
I really hate this argument. I find this to be quite dumb to be honest, as this can be applied to anything. Because a character never said it, that means they can be? Garrus could also be a woman, because he never said he was a man. That's just cheap and lame.

And just because he implies he had sex with a female doesn't mean he can't be bi.  That would be the truly "dumb", naive argument

It's a simple truth that Garrus could be bisexual.  You can't deny it; you can only complain that you don't like it because you always assumed differently.

[CheeseEnchilada]

Meh, my only worry about new romances are that they'll take away from the ones already established. We're spread pretty thin as it is, and I'd like a decent amount of content for all romances, including the new ones and/or whoever the s/s ones are. Getting only two conversations again would be awful, but I'm pretty sure that won't happen.

I'm also not a big fan of the lack of friendship paths, but they've said that's being improved, so I'm happy. Overall, I like this article. It has weight.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...
It's a simple truth that Garrus could also be Saren's love-child. To me, that whole argument makes the characters feel unreal, as it pretty much says that if the characters never say it, it's possibly true. Bioware makes great characters that basically come to life, to me at least. Adding this just shows that they can be molded to just about anything, and makes them not as believable to me.

Right, because this simple truth never existed until sexuality came into play...

This is how it's always been.  Until something is strictly defined its definition remains open.  The sexualities of most of these characters have not been strictly defined and thusly remain open.

It's the exact same scenario as when they made Garrus and Tali like Shepard in ME2 when they didn't in ME1.  Their sexuality was not strictly defined in ME1, so it was still possible for them to be sexually attracted to Shepard.  It was also still possible that, even if they weren't attracted to Shepard in ME1, that the attraction could have grown over time and with shared experiences.  Both scenarios are fine and believable.  Relationships evolve over time; that's another simple fact.

So, to reiterate, you're complaining about BioWare "adding" in a clause that has always been present.  And that tells me that either you were unaware that this clause existed (which is unlikely), or that your real problem with this issue is something other than what you're saying it is.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 08 juillet 2011 - 03:04 .

[Nashiktal]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
And another gem:
"But when playing as a male Shepard, I can’t recall a single time when Garrus or Kaiden made any reference to their sexual orientation. Likewise with Ashley when playing as a female Shepard. As far as relationship options go, these characters are blank slates."
According to Bioware, every charcter is a blank slate now.

They are mostly blank slates.  Garrus and Kaidan make references to liking at least one woman in the past, which leaves both bisexuality and heterosexuality on the table as options.

And BioWare has said they'll never make a strictly gay character, so, yeah, they're still free to define the character's sexuality either way and have it be completely in character.

We have to remember though that Garrus' romance with with femshep has nothing to do at all with gender. Hell the only way Turians can even tell the difference between human genders is the funny bumps. Garrus even says that he isn't into humans.

Nah the only reason Garrus even gives the romance a chance is because of his respect for SHEP. not the gender of shep. 

Modifié par Nashiktal, 08 juillet 2011 - 03:05 .