291 réponses à ce sujet

[shepskisaac]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...
It's a simple truth that Garrus could also be Saren's love-child. To me, that whole argument makes the characters feel unreal, as it pretty much says that if the characters never say it, it's possibly true. Bioware makes great characters that basically come to life, to me at least. Adding this just shows that they can be molded to just about anything, and makes them not as believable to me.

Yeah, and Luke Skywalker could be Darth Vader's so... Oh wait. See, characters do not have to reveal, proclaim and tell the viewers absolutely everything right away or even know everything exactly themselves. You keep bringing Garrus who's a character that didn't even thought about (Fem)Shep this way until (Fem)Shep brought it up. Considering this, how exactly would it be unrealistic or didn't fir for Garrus to start thinking about MaleShep this way if he brought it? Is it me or would it be perfectly in line with what happens in the FemShep romance with him? Heck, he basically tells that he ain't attracted to humans, he's just doing it with FemShep 'cause he respects her and she suggested it.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 08 juillet 2011 - 03:05 .

[Youknow]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...
I really hate this argument. I find this to be quite dumb to be honest, as this can be applied to anything. Because a character never said it, that means they can be? Garrus could also be a woman, because he never said he was a man. That's just cheap and lame.

And just because he implies he had sex with a female doesn't mean he can't be bi.  That would be the truly "dumb", naive argument

It's a simple truth that Garrus could be bisexual.  You can't deny it; you can only complain that you don't like it because you always assumed differently.

It's a simple truth that Garrus could also be Saren's love-child. To me, that whole argument makes the characters feel unreal, as it pretty much says that if the characters never say it, it's possibly true. Bioware makes great characters that basically come to life, to me at least. Adding this just shows that they can be molded to just about anything, and makes them not as believable to me.

As much as you don't like it, that IS the case for some people. I knew a guy for years (like 10) before he came clean about his sexuality. And it wasn't even because he felt comfortable with me, it was because someone was making fun of him and shielding him. His reasoning? I'm apparently too aggressive to just tell things like that. Kinda hurt my feelings actually...

[KawaiiKatie]

This article is amazing. :happy:

[mya11]

I hope the romance for the last episode are good and realistic !!

[Youknow]

[quote] Youknow wrote...

As much as you don't like it, that IS the case for some people. I knew a
guy for years (like 10) before he came clean about his sexuality. And
it wasn't even because he felt comfortable with me, it was because
someone was making fun of him and shielding him. His reasoning? I'm
apparently too aggressive to just tell things like that. Kinda hurt my
feelings actually...
[/quote]

And how many times does that happen?


[/quote]

It has happened to me 3 times. Enough to where I can't dismiss the possibility. The first one did not. The second one did and suggested some weird stuff along with it. Third of them worked in reverse and ENDED all possible romance. And I'll just start by saying it sucks to be on that end of the spectrum and I hope Bioware doesn't do that... 

Modifié par Youknow, 08 juillet 2011 - 03:16 .

[AngelicMachinery]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Garrus could also be a woman, because he never said he was a man. That's just cheap and lame.

I for one support transsexual Garrus.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...
It did exist already, but it makes it more prevalent.
And what are you suggesting?

It doesn't make the issue more prevalent in the game.  It makes it more prevalent in your mind.  And why that is the case is something I can't possibly know.

I'm not suggesting anything specifically.  I understand your issue with this scenario could be many things:

Maybe you object to the idea of your relationships with these characters being challenged with new information about them.  But that's always been present and has always been a possibility.  With every piece of characterization that is added you run the risk of changing someone's established opinion.  If you liked Garrus in ME1 and ME2 but suddenly are apprehensive of the possibility that he might want to have a relationship with another male in ME3 then clearly that's an issue. (not saying you are; this is just a possibility.

Maybe you think it's a retcon and object to the very idea of changing continuity.  That's a fine issue to have, but A) in this case it isn't a retcon because there was no strict definition to begin with and, there have been many
"retcons" throughout the game already, both actual retcons and pseudo retcons that are merely perceived as retcons.

My point is that this "issue" of having not strictly defined a character or other aspect of the game is no more prevalent now than it ever was.  If it seems more prevalent to you then it is probably due to the subject matter involved.  And that could be characterization, sexuality, your own assumptions on continuity, etc.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 08 juillet 2011 - 03:17 .

[mya11]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Garrus could also be a woman, because he never said he was a man. That's just cheap and lame.

I for one support transsexual Garrus.

:sick: Oh my god

[GodWood]

Don liek it.

I absolutely loathed DA2's loleveryoneisbi approach and I'm definitely not a fan of Bioware tacking a sexuality on an already establised LI.

HOWEVER

I wholeheartedly support the existence of a m/m romance option provided it is with a new character.

If a same-sex romance option ruins a character’s consistency in Mass Effect 3, you only have your own choices to blame

And that statement is just retarded.

[AngelicMachinery]

mya11 wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Garrus could also be a woman, because he never said he was a man. That's just cheap and lame.

I for one support transsexual Garrus.

:sick: Oh my god

Oh relax,  Turians are lizards birds appearance wise I doubt a human would be able to tell the difference between a male/female.  Don't get your panties in a twist.

[Nashiktal]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

mya11 wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Garrus could also be a woman, because he never said he was a man. That's just cheap and lame.

I for one support transsexual Garrus.

:sick: Oh my god

Oh relax,  Turians are lizards birds appearance wise I doubt a human would be able to tell the difference between a male/female.  Don't get your panties in a twist.

Its the same way for Turians looking at humans, which is one reason I wonder why people think Garrus can't be gay. (for shep)

[mya11]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

mya11 wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Garrus could also be a woman, because he never said he was a man. That's just cheap and lame.

I for one support transsexual Garrus.

:sick: Oh my god

Oh relax,  Turians are lizards birds appearance wise I doubt a human would be able to tell the difference between a male/female.  Don't get your panties in a twist.

No comment

[Mystranna Kelteel]

GodWood wrote...
I wholeheartedly support the existence of a m/m romance option provided it is with a new character.

If a same-sex romance option ruins a character’s consistency in Mass Effect 3, you only have your own choices to blame

And that statement is just retarded.

That quote should say "If a same-sex romance option ruins a character’s consistency in Mass Effect 3, you only have your own assumptions to blame."

But what he's saying is that, quite simply, if you don't have your dudeShep flirt with a bisexual dude then you will never see that this character is bisexual, and thus your Shepard will never know and nothing would change in the game.  The only thing that changes is your personal meta-game knowledge of the character.  And meta-game knowledge does not affect your game's consistency.

It's not "retarded" to say that at all.

[ReallyRue]

Nashiktal wrote...

Its the same way for Turians looking at humans, which is one reason I wonder why people think Garrus can't be gay. (for shep)

I've never quite understood that. To a turian, femShep isn't what a female looks like, and it seems he's only attracted to her because it's Shepard. So why not an "only if it's you" relationship with maleShep, if it works fine for femShep.

[Kavain]

Not every squadmate needs to be bi or even sexually interested in Shepard. I mean c'mon...

ME3 Intro:

"Commander Shepard's log of the first day on board the new Normandy. Seeing all my old friends again was great! All of them assured me that they would stick to me to whatever end may come! I was really touched! Right afterwards they turned in on me and everyone of them wanted a piece of me! I had to run for the elevator because I really felt that they would all just grab at me and suck me out! Maybe they were being indoctrinated or even worse... The devs thought that everyone of them wants to scr*** me real badly just that each and every player is satisfied. I'm desperate! They only saved me from those hearings on earth to rape me over and over again! Even Kasumi, who was totally into Jacob, is after me! I can't get my job done this way!"

It's slightly overdone I admit that... But still... Sometimes I feel that some of the BSN just want as many LIs as possible.

Modifié par Kavain, 08 juillet 2011 - 03:34 .

[Nashiktal]

Kavain wrote...

Not every squadmate needs to be bi or even sexually interested in Shepard. I mean c'mon...

ME3 Intro:

"Commander Shepard's log of the first day on board the new Normandy. Seeing all my old friends again was great! All of them assured me that they would stick to me to whatever end may come! I was really touched! Right afterwards they turned in on me and everyone of them wanted a piece of me! I had to run for the elevator because I really felt that they would all just grab at me and suck me out! Maybe they were being indoctrinated or even worse... The devs thought that everyone of them wants to scr*** me real badly just that each and every player is satisfied. I'm desperate! They only saved me from those hearings on earth to rape me over and over again! Even Kasumi, who was totally into Jacob, is after me! I can't get my job done this way!"

They don't have to be, unless you show interest. Really I think Garrus, if he would have been made a BI option, would have been a great example of how to do a romance.

People who want the option get it, those who don't never have to see these characters as anything other than their percieved sexuality. (Especially since the only way to start the romance is to initiate it.)

Sure people worry about things like ninjamance, but honestly that is an entirely separate issue from this.

[GodWood]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
That quote should say "If a same-sex romance option ruins a character’s consistency in Mass Effect 3, you only have your own assumptions to blame."

See that's better.
I don't like it but it's right.

But what he's saying is that, quite simply, if you don't have your dudeShep flirt with a bisexual dude then you will never see that this character is bisexual, and thus your Shepard will never know and nothing would change in the game.  The only thing that changes is your personal meta-game knowledge of the character.  And meta-game knowledge does not affect your game's consistency.

It's not "retarded" to say that at all.

That assumes Shepard will be required to flirt to initiate the male squadmember's romance and not that he'll just blurt out feelings of love like every other squadmember

(or at least the ones romancable by a male Shep)

[KawaiiKatie]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Garrus could also be a woman, because he never said he was a man. That's just cheap and lame.

I for one support transsexual Garrus.

Yup, same here. I would love Garrus no matter what gender he identifies as.

And yeah, more to the point, Garrus could be a woman. We have no idea what's going on in his pants. We have no idea if Turian sexual organs even partially resemble human sexual organs, so Garrus could be, for all we know, "female." And if Bioware decided to take that direction with Garrus' character, I trust that they would do so with great respect for the canon they've established, and that they would provide in-game answers for the questions that your Shepard might have.

Would they answer the questions to your complete satisfaction? Maybe, maybe not. Would it be a "retcon" that broke previous, established canon? No.

Would it "ruin" Garrus' character for you? Well, only you can answer that question. If you answered yes, I would ask you to very carefully consider why the breaking of gender norms makes you uncomfortable, and why Garrus' gender affects your opinion of him. He's still the same guy who fought at your side for two games. He's still the same person who possibly romanced your femShep. Who's to say that femShep could even distinguish male Turian gentials from female Turian genitals? Would the discovery that Garrus is technically the "female" of his species really change him all that much? Perhaps there's a phonetic gap between Turian and human languages, or a general translation error, and Garrus never realized that you were mistaking him for a male Turian! Believe me, if Garrus turns out to be the "female" of his species, Bioware will find a way to implement it without contradicting what has already been established.

Of course, all of this is just an elaborate metaphor for bisexual returning characters. Will it be a retcon? No. Will Bioware address why they never hit on same-sex Shepard before ME3? Yes. Will they do so to your complete, indivual satisfaction? Maybe, maybe not.

[Kavain]

Nashiktal wrote...

They don't have to be, unless you show interest. Really I think Garrus, if he would have been made a BI option, would have been a great example of how to do a romance.

People who want the option get it, those who don't never have to see these characters as anything other than their percieved sexuality. (Especially since the only way to start the romance is to initiate it.)

Sure people worry about things like ninjamance, but honestly that is an entirely separate issue from this.

I agree with what you've said, it's all about the option. If you'd want to you can. But still... You'd say we make every character in ME bisexual just to give all the players all the options available?

[GodWood]

ReallyRue wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...
Its the same way for Turians looking at humans, which is one reason I wonder why people think Garrus can't be gay. (for shep)

I've never quite understood that. To a turian, femShep isn't what a female looks like, and it seems he's only attracted to her because it's Shepard. So why not an "only if it's you" relationship with maleShep, if it works fine for femShep.

One can assume gender takes precedence over species based off the fact that a large number of RL females have expressed a sexual interest in Garrus despite him not looking like a human and yet there has been a very small (likely non-existent) amount of straight males wanting to sleep with him.

Modifié par GodWood, 08 juillet 2011 - 03:42 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...
As others have stated in this thread, just about everything on this forum is someone's opinion, so it's pretty obvious that it's in my mind and possibly not anyone else's. Not to be rude, though.
And I don't think it's a retcon.

I know it's your opinion.  It doesn't offend me or anything; I just don't buy that your issue with this bisexuality thing is what you say it is.

Because the exact same issue exists in countless other cases.  It's no more prevalent than it was before; it's just being applied to another subject matter.

They never said the Collectors weren't protheans, so they could be protehans.  And then it was revealed to be true.
They never said Harbinger wasn't controlling the Collector General, so he could have been.  And then it was revealed to be the case.
They never said the Shadow Broker wasn't some giant lizard witha  tri-corner mouth in a blue janitor's outfit, but he could have been.  turns out he was.
They never said Ashley didn't love coconuts.  Maybe she does.
They never said Ashley isn't interested in other women.  Maybe she is.

Long story short, nothing is changing other than the simple truth of definitions being applied to sexuality.  By all logic, it shouldn't bother you.  The fact that it does tells me that it is something more than the principle itself.  Not my business what that is, maybe, but it has to be something.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 08 juillet 2011 - 03:41 .

[KawaiiKatie]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Oh relax,  Turians are lizards birds appearance wise I doubt a human would be able to tell the difference between a male/female.  Don't get your panties in a twist.

Ugh, this. I hardly believe that anyone here would be able to look at Turian genitals and say, "Yup! That one's definitely the female! I could hit that and not be gay. No sir!"

Freaking gender norms. Deep-voiced alien race with no boobs? Male! Hourglass-shaped alien race populated by strippers? Female!

I really, really don't understand why "heterosexual" xenophilia is okay, but "homosexual" xenophilia is not. <_<

[i love lamp x3]

I just want character consistency. garrus told me his "I had reach, she had flexibility" story, kaiden told me about some "beautiful" gal from his past. miranda and jacob were together pre-me2. I just don't want them hitting on shep in me3, especially when I reject the advances, it kills the friendship (like the -15 approval with anders in da2)