291 réponses à ce sujet

[mya11]

i love lamp x3 wrote...

I just want character consistency. garrus told me his "I had reach, she had flexibility" story, kaiden told me about some "beautiful" gal from his past. miranda and jacob were together pre-me2. I just don't want them hitting on shep in me3, especially when I reject the advances, it kills the friendship (like the -15 approval with anders in da2)

+15 agree

[KawaiiKatie]

GodWood wrote...

One can assume gender takes precedence over species based off the fact that a large number of RL females have expressed a sexual interest in Garrus despite him not looking like a human and yet there has been a very small (likely non-existent) amount of straight males wanting to sleep with him.

An aside note here: that's not true. Garrus dominates the romance-interest market, taking up something in the area of 34% of all Mass Effect romances. That's pretty significant, and hardly restricted to female players. As it's been said:

"There are only two types of Mass Effect players. Those who are attracted to Garrus, and liars."

[Nashiktal]

mya11 wrote...

i love lamp x3 wrote...

I just want character consistency. garrus told me his "I had reach, she had flexibility" story, kaiden told me about some "beautiful" gal from his past. miranda and jacob were together pre-me2. I just don't want them hitting on shep in me3, especially when I reject the advances, it kills the friendship (like the -15 approval with anders in da2)

+15 agree

Garrus was talking about members of his SPECIES, and Miranda and Jacobs relationship didn't work out, and is only one tiny part of their entire lives. 

See how that works?

-15 agree.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

GodWood wrote...
That assumes Shepard will be required to flirt to initiate the male squadmember's romance and not that he'll just blurt out feelings of love like every other squadmember
(or at least the ones romancable by a male Shep)

That's true.  And that assumption was likely made using BioWare's own quotes.  They've said these romances will be player-initiated so it's a fairly safe assumption to make at this point.

Anders in DA2 might be brought up, but he's only applicable as an example with a dudeHawke.  My playthroughs never gave any indication that he was bisexual across both games, but to me it wouldn't have mattered either way.  Meta-game knowledge tells me Anders is bisexual and has always been bisexual.  The fact that my Hawke and my Warden never knew he liked anything but ladies is not relevant to my consistency.  If it had come up then I still wouldn't care, personally.

So I don't see why people are so upset about the mere possibility of having to see new character information.  It's not changing any character; it's revealing more of them that they've kept hidden.  I can understand the objection if it's on a purely technical level, but I've seen no indication that it will be poorly handled.

[Nashiktal]

GodWood wrote...

ReallyRue wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...
Its the same way for Turians looking at humans, which is one reason I wonder why people think Garrus can't be gay. (for shep)

I've never quite understood that. To a turian, femShep isn't what a female looks like, and it seems he's only attracted to her because it's Shepard. So why not an "only if it's you" relationship with maleShep, if it works fine for femShep.

One can assume gender takes precedence over species based off the fact that a large number of RL females have expressed a sexual interest in Garrus despite him not looking like a human and yet there has been a very small (likely non-existent) amount of straight males wanting to sleep with him.

You are kidding right? 

In all seriousness, you would be surprised at the amount of people wanting Garrus who are not straight females.

[Kavain]

i love lamp x3 wrote...

I just want character consistency. garrus told me his "I had reach, she had flexibility" story, kaiden told me about some "beautiful" gal from his past. miranda and jacob were together pre-me2. I just don't want them hitting on shep in me3, especially when I reject the advances, it kills the friendship (like the -15 approval with anders in da2)

I know what you meant but ME has an entirely different morale / approval system. Perhaps you shouldn't apply that example to ME?

But still: Many ME characters have a certain background. I just simply don't think Garris is gay or bi -- I'm not saying he shouldn't be. All I'm saying is that he never told Shep about this hot guy who really impressed him or something. The characters are set. Also, their sexuality is set.

Modifié par Kavain, 08 juillet 2011 - 03:50 .

[KawaiiKatie]

i love lamp x3 wrote...

I just want character consistency. garrus told me his "I had reach, she had flexibility" story, kaiden told me about some "beautiful" gal from his past. miranda and jacob were together pre-me2. I just don't want them hitting on shep in me3, especially when I reject the advances, it kills the friendship (like the -15 approval with anders in da2)

Mass Effect =/= Dragon Age.

I don't remember "killing" the friendship between me and Tali when I turned her down. I don't remember losing her loyalty, her respect, or her friendship. I don't remember taking any sort of approval hit, and I sincerly doubt that Kaidan or Garrus will burst into tears and stop talking to your manShep is he rejects their advances. More than likely, they will say, "Sorry for the mixed signals" or "I understand, you just don't feel that way" and never mention it again.

As for character consistency, there's nothing about heterosexual sex that precludes homosexual sex. If Thane is bisexual in ME3, it won't contradict all of the heterosexual sex he had with his wife. Bisexuality means that you're attracted to both genders, and you don't just stop being bisexual after you sleep with one or the other.

[Nashiktal]

Kavain wrote...

i love lamp x3 wrote...

I just want character consistency. garrus told me his "I had reach, she had flexibility" story, kaiden told me about some "beautiful" gal from his past. miranda and jacob were together pre-me2. I just don't want them hitting on shep in me3, especially when I reject the advances, it kills the friendship (like the -15 approval with anders in da2)

I know what you meant but ME has an entirely different morale / approval system. Perhaps you shouldn't apply that example to ME?

But still: Many ME characters have a certain background. I just simply don't think Garris is gay or bi -- I'm not saying he shouldn't be. All I'm saying is that he never told Shep about this hot guy who really impressed him or something. The characters are set. Also their sexuality is set.

Not to mention the Anders freaking out thing was in character. He has a messed up life, and is  fused to a spirit of righteous anger? Yeah.

Still it won't happen like in DA2, since ME3 romances are supposed to be entirely player initiated.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 08 juillet 2011 - 03:52 .

[ElitePinecone]

mya11 wrote...
I just want character consistency. garrus told me his "I had reach, she had flexibility" story, kaiden told me about some "beautiful" gal from his past. miranda and jacob were together pre-me2. I just don't want them hitting on shep in me3, especially when I reject the advances, it kills the friendship (like the -15 approval with anders in da2)

- None of which discounts their being bisexual, if Bioware chooses to do it. Emphasis on the 'bi' part. 

- Nobody is going to hit on Shepard. Read Bioware's quotes on this. It's reactive to player choices. 

- There is no friendship system in ME3, that we know of. They're different games.

[AngelicMachinery]

Kavain wrote...

i love lamp x3 wrote...

I just want character consistency. garrus told me his "I had reach, she had flexibility" story, kaiden told me about some "beautiful" gal from his past. miranda and jacob were together pre-me2. I just don't want them hitting on shep in me3, especially when I reject the advances, it kills the friendship (like the -15 approval with anders in da2)

I know what you meant but ME has an entirely different morale / approval system. Perhaps you shouldn't apply that example to ME?

But still: Many ME characters have a certain background. I just simply don't think Garris is gay or bi -- I'm not saying he shouldn't be. All I'm saying is that he never told Shep about this hot guy who really impressed him or something. The characters are set. Also, their sexuality is set.

That's because the hot guy who impresses him is Shepard.  : )

[jeweledleah]

the biggest problem I see with his assumptions is that he is assuming that npc's are what player decides they are. just because you don't make a certain conversation choice doesn't mean that it no longer exists. just because he doesn't play a femshep doesn't invalidate the fact that Kaidan is attracted to a femshep. to him - npc's exist in a vacuum of his individual playthrough. but they don't. its just people going lalalala, I cannot see it, so it doesn't exist!

lets take Liara for example. she is attracted to maleshep, yes? but that doesn't make her straight. and when she's attracted to femshep, it doesn't make her gay. what she is is bisexual. because she has an chance of being attracted to either male or females, and just because she chooses to be with one or the other doesn't make the other option nonexistent. its still there, just unexplored.

As someone who not only plays multiple Shepards, but uses multiple options to fully figure out the npc's, to me its important that characters stay consistent throughout different playthroughs, not to mention sequel games. unfortunately - bioware doesn't seem to be very good at it at this time. characters are already inconsistent. and it has nothing to do with player choices and everything to do with sloppy writing. I have to give it to them though, they are trying to learn and they are trying to get better at it. (DA2 actualy records which options you pick most and then tailors future conversations based on that - its a huge step in a right direction)

who knows, maybe in some game in a future, where they have same authors for same characters across the entire trilogies with detailed character sheets and software that records all the interactions instead of reducing them to a binary flag - I'll actually see the consistency I'm looking for.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 08 juillet 2011 - 03:56 .

[ReallyRue]

Nashiktal wrote...

Kavain wrote...

i love lamp x3 wrote...

I just want character consistency. garrus told me his "I had reach, she had flexibility" story, kaiden told me about some "beautiful" gal from his past. miranda and jacob were together pre-me2. I just don't want them hitting on shep in me3, especially when I reject the advances, it kills the friendship (like the -15 approval with anders in da2)

I know what you meant but ME has an entirely different morale / approval system. Perhaps you shouldn't apply that example to ME?

But still: Many ME characters have a certain background. I just simply don't think Garris is gay or bi -- I'm not saying he shouldn't be. All I'm saying is that he never told Shep about this hot guy who really impressed him or something. The characters are set. Also their sexuality is set.

Not to mention the Anders freaking out thing was in character. He has a messed up life, and is  fused to a spirit of righteous anger? Yeah.

Still it won't happen like in DA2, since ME3 romances are supposed to be entirely player initiated.

And considering that Anders is one character, compared to the three other LI whose romances were perfectly well implemented. Anders is the only one who came on to Hawke.

[Maugrim]

Kavain wrote...

i love lamp x3 wrote...

I just want character consistency. garrus told me his "I had reach, she had flexibility" story, kaiden told me about some "beautiful" gal from his past. miranda and jacob were together pre-me2. I just don't want them hitting on shep in me3, especially when I reject the advances, it kills the friendship (like the -15 approval with anders in da2)

I know what you meant but ME has an entirely different morale / approval system. Perhaps you shouldn't apply that example to ME?

But still: Many ME characters have a certain background. I just simply don't think Garris is gay or bi -- I'm not saying he shouldn't be. All I'm saying is that he never told Shep about this hot guy who really impressed him or something. The characters are set. Also, their sexuality is set.

You're so right.  Just like Ellen Degeneres, Rosie O'Donnell, Wanda Sykes, John Amaechi, Roy Simmons, Esera Tuaolo etc. etc. ad nauseum have been and always will be straight.  No arguing with your logic!



ETA : For the really slow people in this thread that's a list of famous people who have either outright said they were straight or presented as straight to the public.  Guess what they all have in common now....

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 08 juillet 2011 - 03:57 .

[slimgrin]

jeweledleah wrote...

the biggest problem I see with his assumptions is that he is assuming that npc's are what player decides they are 

This. Bioware decides who they are, and when they lack consistency, well..

[Nashiktal]

slimgrin wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

the biggest problem I see with his assumptions is that he is assuming that npc's are what player decides they are 

This. Bioware decides who they are, and when they lack consistency, well..

But how does this consistancy work if we have not seen enough of these characters lives to know what is consistant? Romancing humans was definately not consistant for Garrus.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...
The Collectors, Shadow broker, and harbinger were brand new to us, so I don't think they count.

Of course they count.  There is no difference between finding out that the Collectors are gentically corrupted protheans and finding out that Ashley is bisexual.

In the former case it is a feasible reveal of information because we know the reapers have disturbing genetic-altering technology and that they attacked the protheans.
In the latter case it is a feasible reveal of information because we know Ashley has been interested in men and has never denied her interest in women.  Liking men is half of the requirements for being bisexual, and the other half of those reequirements are nowhere near being outlandish or impossible, and it hasn't been denied in any way.

The idea that Ash might like women is just as "new" as the idea that the protheans were modified into Collectors.

[mya11]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

the biggest problem I see with his assumptions is that he is assuming that npc's are what player decides they are. just because you don't make a certain conversation choice doesn't mean that it no longer exists. just because he doesn't play a femshep doesn't invalidate the fact that Kaidan is attracted to a femshep. to him - npc's exist in a vacuum of his individual playthrough. but they don't. its just people going lalalala, I cannot see it, so it doesn't exist!

lets take Liara for example. she is attracted to maleshep, yes? but that doesn't make her straight. and when she's attracted to femshep, it doesn't make her gay. what she is is bisexual. because she has an chance of being attracted to either male or females, and just because she chooses to be with one or the other doesn't make the other option nonexistent. its still there, just unexplored.

As someone who not only plays multiple Shepards, but uses multiple options to fully figure out the npc's, to me its important that characters stay consistent throughout different playthroughs, not to mention sequel games. unfortunately - bioware doesn't seem to be very good at it at this time. characters are already inconsistent. and it has nothing to do with player choices and everything to do with sloppy writing. I have to give it to them though, they are trying to learn and they are trying to get better at it. (DA2 actualy records which options you pick most and then tailors future conversations based on that - its a huge step in a right direction)

who knows, maybe in some game in a future, where they have same authors for same characters across the entire trilogies with detailed character sheets and software that records all the interactions instead of reducing them to a binary flag - I'll actually see the consistency I'm looking for.

This is very good.

I am agree too, very good point

[alperez]

i love lamp x3 wrote...

I just want character consistency. garrus told me his "I had reach, she had flexibility" story, kaiden told me about some "beautiful" gal from his past. miranda and jacob were together pre-me2. I just don't want them hitting on shep in me3, especially when I reject the advances, it kills the friendship (like the -15 approval with anders in da2)

As Mystranna and others have pointed out a character has to evolve and since we don't know every single facet of every single character yet there are no consitency issues.

Garrus and Kaiden talking to a Shepard who thus far has come across as completely straight may not be comfortable revealing that they are not, when talking to a Shepard who is BI or Gay this could change drastically as it does in real life, so where is the consitency problem?

You could argue that Shepard in me3 suddenly revealing that he is open to M/M romances is not character consitency of course but again this could be argued in so many other ways also. People can change, there are many instances of a seemingly hetrosexual player suddenly revealing that all along he was living a lie and that in fact he was actually attracted to members of his own sex, so why should Mass effect which caters for all other forms of romance and lifestyle choices not also show this?

To me the issue of same sex romances should never have been an issue in the first place, it should have been clearly defined from the beginning but Bioware bottled it and kept it to the ambigious Asari rather than the so called straight human.

Peoples sexuality is a personal thing and how they wish to portray what is essence their Shepard should have no bearing on how we portray what is ours, they should have the same number of romance options and the same character choices to be their preferred romance partner.

My only concern regarding this issue is that 3 things should be taken into account regarding characters.

1. an imported character in a relationship shouldn't have the romance options hitting on them all the time, without at least some acknowledgement that they are actually in a relationship.

2. characters being romanceable shouldn't detract from their content when i choose not to romance them

3. romance option should be clearly defined from the very beginning of conversations, so that you can avoid or shut down without the fear of Ninjamancing.

If bioware do this then having a S/S romance or characters being available for a S/S romance wouldn't affect those people who don't want this option without affecting those who do.

[Kavain]

makenzieshepard wrote...

You're so right.  Just like Ellen Degeneres, Rosie O'Donnell, Wanda Sykes, John Amaechi, Roy Simmons, Esera Tuaolo etc. etc. ad nauseum have been and always will be straight.  No arguing with your logic!



ETA : For the really slow people in this thread that's a list of famous people who have either outright said they were straight or presented as straight to the public.  Guess what they all have in common now....

You're saying that I don't want to see the possibility of the squadmates being gay or bisexual?

Thanks for the information you provided about the people you were reciting. Would've taken me quite some time looking them up one by one.

Modifié par Kavain, 08 juillet 2011 - 04:08 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

jeweledleah wrote...

the biggest problem I see with his assumptions is that he is assuming that npc's are what player decides they are. just because you don't make a certain conversation choice doesn't mean that it no longer exists. just because he doesn't play a femshep doesn't invalidate the fact that Kaidan is attracted to a femshep. to him - npc's exist in a vacuum of his individual playthrough. but they don't. its just people going lalalala, I cannot see it, so it doesn't exist!

I thought it was clear that he was talking about consistency from a linear perspective within the game.  You are using meta-game consistency.

And having Ashley finally come out to femShep in ME3 might be "inconsistent" from a technical view of the word, but then it is also "inconsistent" for a woman in the real world to do the same thing.  And that happens all the time.  So "inconsistency" by itself is not something that has to be adhered to.  Realism should be more important, and Ash/Kai/Garrus/etc. coming out as bisexual after showing interest in the opposite gender is perfectly realistic.

[bleetman]

Here we go again. And again. And again.

Weeeeeee.

[ElitePinecone]

It's got nothing to do with consistency, this is false logic.

A bisexual character who romances women then romances men doesn't change one bit.

Sexuality was never established, it doesn't matter a jot if a character speaks of one gender then a year later romances another.

Up until the point where they confirm or deny their sexuality, it's ambiguous. Just like in 'real life'.