291 réponses à ce sujet

[KawaiiKatie]

bleetman wrote...

Here we go again. And again. And again.

Weeeeeee.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...
characters we've never seen or heard of before =/= characters that we've seen and heard of before

What?  We had heard of and seen the Collectors for a long time before it was revealed that they were protheans.

We had heard of the Shadow Broker before his reveal as a goofy lizard critter as well.

Yes, we didn't see the Shadow Broker in ME1.
That means that when we finally do see him in ME2 he could have been anything.

Yes, we didn't see that Ashley liked women in ME1.
That means that she still has time to tell us that she does, and if she does come out then it is perfectly within her character to have done so.

What you seem to be saying is that these characters must adhere strictly to everything we learned about them and assumed about them in the previous games?  Is that it?  Because that's already shot way out of the water; it makes no sense.

[Maugrim]

Kavain wrote...

You're saying that I don't want to see the possibility of the squadmates being gay or bisexual?

Thanks for the information you provided about the people you were reciting. Would've taken me quite some time looking them up one by one.

To be fair to you my reply was more aimed at the person you quoted than yourself.  Sorry about that, your position isn't eye roll worthy like some.

Just the idea that because they have expressed certain past interests means they can't and never could express another or expand on them is ludacrious.  To say one think's they aren't is fine, to say they can't be is silly and frankly wrong.

[GodWood]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

GodWood wrote...
One can assume gender takes precedence over species based off the fact that a large number of RL females have expressed a sexual interest in Garrus despite him not looking like a human and yet there has been a very small (likely non-existent) amount of straight males wanting to sleep with him.

An aside note here: that's not true. Garrus dominates the romance-interest market, taking up something in the area of 34% of all Mass Effect romances.

That doesn't mean males are actually interested in Garrus sexually it just means they liked/pursued his romance with a female Shepard.
Which I can't help but feel is weird anyway, I was very dissapointed with his romance.

Nashiktal wrote...
You are kidding right? 
In all seriousness, you would be surprised at the amount of people wanting Garrus who are not straight females.

From what I've seen there isn't many.
But of course I could be wrong this is just based on what I've observed.

[KawaiiKatie]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...


The idea that Ash might like women is just as "new" as the idea that the protheans were modified into Collectors.

characters we've never seen or heard of before =/= characters that we've seen and heard of before

But we did know the Protheans. In fact, after ME1, we knew the Protheans better than anyone else in the galaxy. But the slow revelation that they'd been turned into the Collectors did not break the established canon, and in fact makes entire sense. Shepard's Prothean vision, meaningless before ME2, makes sense now that we have the proper context.

The same could be said for Ash or Kaidan's bisexuality. It would simply be new imformation about an old character. New perspective. And I trust Bioware to make it work with the plot, as they did with our new perspective on the Protheans.

[Kavain]

makenzieshepard wrote...


To be fair to you my reply was more aimed at the person you quoted than yourself.  Sorry about that, your position isn't eye roll worthy like some.

Just the idea that because they have expressed certain past interests means they can't and never could express another or expand on them is ludacrious.  To say one think's they aren't is fine, to say they can't be is silly and frankly wrong.

Thanks for your clarification. I happen to agree with you... Now burning myself somehow. *g*

[AngelicMachinery]

[Mystranna Kelteel]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...
I thought we only heard of Collectors in ME2.
And it depends on the writing if it's going to be "in character."
No, I'm saying that exactly, but in my opinion, there is a level of molding characters I'm willing to go.

Technically our first glimpse of the Collectors was in the second novel.  If you don't count the novel then, yeah, they were introduced in ME2.

But if I switched it around and said that protheans were modified into Collectors it would match your example.  We knew about the protheans in ME1.  We assumed they were all killed.  Then in ME2 we learned that they were modified.

That there is no different than learning in ME3 that Ash likes women as well, or that she has developed a crush on femShep over the course of the game.

As an aside, I don't see what the difference is between this principle being applied to a person or species that was introduced in the same game and the principle applied to a species or character carried over from another game.

There is still a period of time spent where the present information leads to either uncertainty or suggests a particular definition, but that definition is revealed later and changes those assumptions.  It's no different.

So, as you seem to say in the above quote, your issue is that you object to them altering your assumed personalities for Kaidan/Ash/Garrus/etc.  It's not that the principle is being applied, but that the principle is "molding" these characters more than you wanted them to be molded.  Or that the game is molding them in a direction you don't like.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 08 juillet 2011 - 04:25 .

[mya11]

This debat is not good because the devs of Bioware no confirm who you can't romance !! answer on march 2011 !!

[KawaiiKatie]

mya11 wrote...

This debat is not good because the devs of Bioware no confirm who you can't romance !! answer on march 2011 !!

I really wish that they would address if same-sex romances are going to come in the form of new love-interests, old friends, or both.

Please, Bioware? Pretty, pretty please?

[jeweledleah]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

the biggest problem I see with his assumptions is that he is assuming that npc's are what player decides they are. just because you don't make a certain conversation choice doesn't mean that it no longer exists. just because he doesn't play a femshep doesn't invalidate the fact that Kaidan is attracted to a femshep. to him - npc's exist in a vacuum of his individual playthrough. but they don't. its just people going lalalala, I cannot see it, so it doesn't exist!

I thought it was clear that he was talking about consistency from a linear perspective within the game.  You are using meta-game consistency.

And having Ashley finally come out to femShep in ME3 might be "inconsistent" from a technical view of the word, but then it is also "inconsistent" for a woman in the real world to do the same thing.  And that happens all the time.  So "inconsistency" by itself is not something that has to be adhered to.  Realism should be more important, and Ash/Kai/Garrus/etc. coming out as bisexual after showing interest in the opposite gender is perfectly realistic.

of course I'm talking about meta game consistency.  and I perfectly understood what he was talking about - that was the exactly issue I had with his post.

you see what I'd like to see is the npc's that are the same person across all games and across all shepards.  I don't want to see parts of them being waved away, to fit a player's vision of them.  I hate that idea that you could just "assume"  that DA2 LI's (other then Isabela)  were straight or gay depending on what kind of Hawke you play and when Gaider finaly came out and said that Ander's relationship with Karl exists for all Hawke's, he just doesn't tell about it to all Hawkes - I felt a hell of a lot better about those characters. Having seen them react more or less consistently and in character, made me hopeful that Bioware is at least on a right track.  (of course the current limitations of freindship rivaly system removed any chance of me actualy roleplaying Hawkes - its worse then renegade/paragon at times :/ - but hey, people rarely get everything right the first time)

I don't want alternate versions of NPC's.  I don't want my Ashley and your Ashley and his Ashley.  I want it to be just Ashley.  and if we're talking about individual playthrough consistency - I'd like for NPC's to aknowledge how you treated them instead of reseting and rewriting them each and every sequel.  what I'm talking about is writing characters and then fitting the story to them instead of writing a story and then fitting characters to it.

currently - its the second.  I've come to terms with it at this point.  But I'm hoping that maybe as long as discussion continues, Bioware will not just wave it away and keep figuring it out and maybe eventualy they will figure out how to bend the story while keeping characters consistent and still giving players plenty of role playing choices

[AngelicMachinery]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

mya11 wrote...

This debat is not good because the devs of Bioware no confirm who you can't romance !! answer on march 2011 !!

I really wish that they would address if same-sex romances are going to come in the form of new love-interests, old friends, or both.

Please, Bioware? Pretty, pretty please?

But than, they can't sit and giggle at the arguments.  Which I'm sure they do.

[Kavain]

mya11 wrote...

This debat is not good because the devs of Bioware no confirm who you can't romance !! answer on march 2011 !!

You mean march 2012? But yeah, you're right. I hope you'll get your confirmation on that subject before that date, though.

[mya11]

Kavain wrote...

mya11 wrote...

This debat is not good because the devs of Bioware no confirm who you can't romance !! answer on march 2011 !!

You mean march 2012? But yeah, you're right. I hope you'll get your confirmation on that subject before that date, though.

oops mars 2012 I wil be say

[KawaiiKatie]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

But than, they can't sit and giggle at the arguments.  Which I'm sure they do.

Ah, right. I forget that our rainbow-coloured tears fill their coffee cups each morning.

[jeweledleah]

P.S. about the protheans. them being modified by the reapers is by no way a contradiction. Vigil tells us in ME1 that they killed some, enslaved others. all we did was meet the slaves in ME2. at least that part of the story was consistent. I do hope though that they don't decide that Ilos wasn't the only hidden place and some prothean somehow ended up being able to cryofreze for give or take 50,000 years, without his pod ever breaking and that we'd find this prothean in ME3. because THAT would be most definitely directly contradictory to everything that we've learned so far.

[ScotGaymer]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...
characters we've never seen or heard of before =/= characters that we've seen and heard of before

What?  We had heard of and seen the Collectors for a long time before it was revealed that they were protheans.

We had heard of the Shadow Broker before his reveal as a goofy lizard critter as well.

Yes, we didn't see the Shadow Broker in ME1.
That means that when we finally do see him in ME2 he could have been anything.

Yes, we didn't see that Ashley liked women in ME1.
That means that she still has time to tell us that she does, and if she does come out then it is perfectly within her character to have done so.

What you seem to be saying is that these characters must adhere strictly to everything we learned about them and assumed about them in the previous games?  Is that it?  Because that's already shot way out of the water; it makes no sense.

I <3 you Mystrana lol. I agree with pretty much everything you have said in this thread. But if I were you I would give up on that one; he isnt going to change what he is thinking or saying.
He will just keep deliberately misinterpreting what you are saying in order to hold onto his opinion and view point which to me seems to be at least some what motivated by a degree of latent homophobia, all the while telling himself that it isnt because he has "gay friends", and will continue being as obtuse as possible so as to not have a proper discussion with you on the subject so he isnt in danger of admitting his real reasoning, or that he might be wrong.

For myself I reckon my GayRenegade Shepard will be grateful for the opportunity to romance a guy; and my StraightParagon Shepard will remain loyal to his Liara. And I reckon my FemShep will be grateful too lol.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

jeweledleah wrote...
I don't want alternate versions of NPC's.  I don't want my Ashley and your Ashley and his Ashley.  I want it to be just Ashley.  and if we're talking about individual playthrough consistency - I'd like for NPC's to aknowledge how you treated them instead of reseting and rewriting them each and every sequel.  what I'm talking about is writing characters and then fitting the story to them instead of writing a story and then fitting characters to it.
currently - its the second.  I've come to terms with it at this point.  But I'm hoping that maybe as long as discussion continues, Bioware will not just wave it away and keep figuring it out and maybe eventualy they will figure out how to bend the story while keeping characters consistent and still giving players plenty of role playing choices

If you can buy that Anders is bisexual all the time and simply doesn't tell a female Hawke about his ex boyfriends (which I think is perfectly believable myself) then I don't see why you would suddenly think that Ash or Kaidan or whoever is being "changed for the sake of the story".  If Ash comes out as liking women then that's clearly part of her character. 

The only thing that would be up in the air is whether she always liked women and just pursues relationships with women differently as opposed to men or if she developed this crush on femShep over the course of 3 games and realized during ME3 that she might be bisexual.
Both are realistic, though the latter would be more difficult to write in a way that would be accepted by most people.

[JamieCOTC]

I hope manlyShep gets a creepy "come on" voice when he talks to Kaidan.  It's only fair. 

Seriously, here is Casey Hudson's first tweet about the subject.  Sounds like Shepard will have to initiate the romance.  If you play femshep that's nothing new. 

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 08 juillet 2011 - 04:38 .

[slimgrin]

JamieCOTC wrote...

I hope manlyShep gets a creepy "come on" voice when he talks to Kaidan.  It's only fair. 

Lol. 

[Ryzaki]

jeweledleah wrote...
I don't want alternate versions of NPC's.  I don't want my Ashley and your Ashley and his Ashley.  I want it to be just Ashley.  and if we're talking about individual playthrough consistency - I'd like for NPC's to aknowledge how you treated them instead of reseting and rewriting them each and every sequel.  what I'm talking about is writing characters and then fitting the story to them instead of writing a story and then fitting characters to it.
currently - its the second.  I've come to terms with it at this point.  But I'm hoping that maybe as long as discussion continues, Bioware will not just wave it away and keep figuring it out and maybe eventualy they will figure out how to bend the story while keeping characters consistent and still giving players plenty of role playing choices

 

So you hated DAO I take it? Since most of the NPCs changed dramatically. Alistair could flee from being king in one game, yet demand the crown in another just because of how the Warden interacted with him, Morrigan could be soften and let the Warden travel with her in one game, and yet be bitter and tell them to screw off in another, Leliana could be persuaded to step down after the warden poisoned the ashes in one game because she's hardened yet nothing will stop her in another. I guess they were "weaker" characters? 

You must also have disliked DA2 not because Anders but because Fenris and Aveline can be different people based off Hawke's actions. 

Or is it suddenly okay then? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 juillet 2011 - 04:43 .

[slimgrin]

Shepard and his band of bisexual badasses to the rescue.