291 réponses à ce sujet

[jeweledleah]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...
I don't want alternate versions of NPC's.  I don't want my Ashley and your Ashley and his Ashley.  I want it to be just Ashley.  and if we're talking about individual playthrough consistency - I'd like for NPC's to aknowledge how you treated them instead of reseting and rewriting them each and every sequel.  what I'm talking about is writing characters and then fitting the story to them instead of writing a story and then fitting characters to it.
currently - its the second.  I've come to terms with it at this point.  But I'm hoping that maybe as long as discussion continues, Bioware will not just wave it away and keep figuring it out and maybe eventualy they will figure out how to bend the story while keeping characters consistent and still giving players plenty of role playing choices

If you can buy that Anders is bisexual all the time and simply doesn't tell a female Hawke about his ex boyfriends (which I think is perfectly believable myself) then I don't see why you would suddenly think that Ash or Kaidan or whoever is being "changed for the sake of the story".  If Ash comes out as liking women then that's clearly part of her character. 

The only thing that would be up in the air is whether she always liked women and just pursues relationships with women differently as opposed to men or if she developed this crush on femShep over the course of 3 games and realized during ME3 that she might be bisexual.
Both are realistic, though the latter would be more difficult to write in a way that would be accepted by most people.

I will have no issue with characters being bisexual.  I WIll have issue with hidden crushes or tearful coming out becasue THAT would add a great deal of inconsistency to already wonky characters.  when writing relationships in ME3, I don't want them to dismiss the entirety of the characters and their possible interactions in prior games.  I want them to concider that both Ash and Kaidan were atracted to oposite sex Shepard in a first game, and take it into account if/when writing same sex relationship.  I want a relationship that will make sence to a meta gaming player with multiple Shepards.

the difference between real life and rpg is that in real life you don't have a character like Shepard who could be male or female, friendly or brisk who can act in multitude of different ways.  concistensy in reall ife is much easier to achieve.  but its not impossible in a game either, will just require a bit of extra writing effort.

[AngelicMachinery]

I think putting Ashley in light armor and giving her a boob job is a MUCH bigger change than her coming out as gay.

[Ryzaki]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Here we go again. And again. And again.

Weeeeeee.

 

And now I'm watching this on youtube. 

I hope you're happy. 

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...
I really hate this argument. I find this to be quite dumb to be honest, as this can be applied to anything. Because a character never said it, that means they can be? Garrus could also be a woman, because he never said he was a man. That's just cheap and lame.

And just because he implies he had sex with a female doesn't mean he can't be bi.  That would be the truly "dumb", naive argument

It's a simple truth that Garrus could be bisexual.  You can't deny it; you can only complain that you don't like it because you always assumed differently.

The funny thing is they actually did imply he was bisexual. I have no idea whether it was intentional or not.

"If you were a turian, I'd be complimenting your waist or your fringe."

And, as it turns out, only male turians have fringes. Females look like this.

Modifié par DaveExclamationMarkYognaut, 08 juillet 2011 - 04:48 .

[KawaiiKatie]

Ryzaki wrote...

And now I'm watching this on youtube. 

I hope you're happy. 

Very.

[Jimmy Fury]

Luigitornado wrote...
My only problem about this thing is how overly forceful the gay community might be when insisting that Shepard and other characters are bisexual just because they are given the option of having a relationship with the same sex (that includes horrific fan art).

So... your only problem is the possibility of people in the gay community doing exactly what some straight people are doing when they insist that Kaiden's one mention of a female in his past makes him automatically and undeniable 100% heterosexual?

Fascinating...

Speaking of that argument. My problem with it isn't even because I have any interest in my M!Shep romancing him (i'm a joker fan and have long since accepted that my OTP will never be realized in game) but the illogical nature of the argument itself.

I have yet to see a logically sound argument that states it's impossible for them to be bisexual or even gay. The only argument really is that they're heterosexual because they discussed heterosexual experiences. The fact that I have had heterosexual experiences yet identify as gay (more like a 5 on the kinsey scale but it's much less annoying to identify as gay) pretty much blows that argument out of the water for me.

Mind you, again, I have no interest in either Kaiden or Garrus as s/s options and would much prefer a new character.  I just have to agree that making them options is not technically an inconsistency. Until CHud says otherwise the potential exists because no logical argument can be made to say it can't.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

jeweledleah wrote...
I will have no issue with characters being bisexual.  I WIll have issue with hidden crushes or tearful coming out becasue THAT would add a great deal of inconsistency to already wonky characters.  when writing relationships in ME3, I don't want them to dismiss the entirety of the characters and their possible interactions in prior games.  I want them to concider that both Ash and Kaidan were atracted to oposite sex Shepard in a first game, and take it into account if/when writing same sex relationship.  I want a relationship that will make sence to a meta gaming player with multiple Shepards.

the difference between real life and rpg is that in real life you don't have a character like Shepard who could be male or female, friendly or brisk who can act in multitude of different ways.  concistensy in reall ife is much easier to achieve.  but its not impossible in a game either, will just require a bit of extra writing effort.

It's only an inconsistency in your mind, and it is no different than Anders in DA2.  Anders clearly doesn't feel he needs to discuss his ex boyfriends with a female to whom he is sexually attracted.  But when that character is a male then maybe Anders thinks divulging his history with men would give him a good indication if he was also interested in men.
I fail to see how that would not also apply to Kaidan or Ashley.  Bisexuals are not all equal opportunity partners with both genders.  Some prefer men, some prefer women, some are merely slower at starting a relationship with one gender over another due to personal, cultural, societal, etc reasons

And as I said before, it may be technically "inconsistent", but it would be no different from a woman who has dated a man in the past going out with a woman for the first time.  If a woman only dated men in high school and then went out with a woman in college that is inconsistent.  That doesn't mean it's wrong or unrealistic or anything.  Even if she was bisexual all throughout highschool, hell, even if she was a lesbian and didn't admit it to herself until college, it's no different.

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...
I don't like molding of characters of any kind (at a certain level). It doesn't just apply to sexuality only to me.

That's fine.  It doesn't have to be about sexuality strictly.  You seem to be taking an issue with this because you perceive it as altering your assumptions too much, not that it is a "cheap" method of storytelling/character development.  You think they are changing the characters too much if they make them bisexual.  That's fine; it's your opinion based on your assumptions.
I can only point out to you that those assumptions can be very wrong.

[Ryzaki]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
The funny thing is they actually did imply he was bisexual. I have no idea whether it was intentional or not.

"If you were a turian, I'd be complimenting your waist or your fringe."

And, as it turns out, only male turians have fringes. Females look like this.

LOL

I'm pretty sure that was unintentional. But it's hilarious (and interesting) just the same.  

 

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Very.

Sneaky witch thief! 

[tmp7704]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

The funny thing is they actually did imply he was bisexual. I have no idea whether it was intentional or not.

"If you were a turian, I'd be complimenting your waist or your fringe."

And, as it turns out, only male turians have fringes. Females look like this.

Or maybe it's customary to compliment the female turian fringe precisely because it's smaller and every little bit of it is something to be proud of

[CroGamer002]

Only people that can not go bi are Tali, Garrus and Thane.

[Ryzaki]

Mesina2 wrote...

Only people that can not go bi are Tali, Garrus and Thane.

Why? 

Considering those three are aliens and already going out their preferences for Shep I seem them as more likely to be bisexual options for Shepard than anyone else. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 juillet 2011 - 04:56 .

[Jimmy Fury]

Mesina2 wrote...

Only people that can not go bi are Tali, Garrus and Thane.

Prove it with a logically sound argument.

[jeweledleah]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...
I really hate this argument. I find this to be quite dumb to be honest, as this can be applied to anything. Because a character never said it, that means they can be? Garrus could also be a woman, because he never said he was a man. That's just cheap and lame.

And just because he implies he had sex with a female doesn't mean he can't be bi.  That would be the truly "dumb", naive argument

It's a simple truth that Garrus could be bisexual.  You can't deny it; you can only complain that you don't like it because you always assumed differently.

The funny thing is they actually did imply he was bisexual. I have no idea whether it was intentional or not.

"If you were a turian, I'd be complimenting your waist or your fringe."

And, as it turns out, only male turians have fringes. Females look like this.

pretty sure its just bad artist.  kinda like Garrus flying through the air, dual wielding pistols.  Turian at the bachelor party also finds himself atracted to the asari, because of her frinde reminding him of Turians.

see, that is my current problem with ME in general.  its like writers, producers and developers are not communicating amongst themselves.  I'm hoping its not too late to start.

@ Mystrana - unfortunately I'm not getting my point across to you.  that's ok, I'm used to it, I'll just keep trying, maybe one day I'll get better at it. P.S.  Anders doesn't reveal his history with Karl to Hawke, unless Hawke already flirted with Anders.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 08 juillet 2011 - 05:00 .

[The Elder King]

Mesina2 wrote...

Only people that can not go bi are Tali, Garrus and Thane.

 
Why?

[Mystranna Kelteel]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...
It's both, really.

But to say that "you can only point out to me that my assumptions can be very wrong" is an incorrect statement.
It's a conflict of opinions between us.

It's not my opinion that your assumptions can be wrong.  They can be wrong.  That's a fact.  My assumptions can be, and have been, wrong as well.  I once assumed that Garrus wouldn't have a romantic relationship with Shepard because he showed no interest in the previous game.  That was an assumption.  I knew it could ahve been wrong because it was an assumption, and it ended up being wrong.

If your assumption was: "Ashley can't be bisexual because she was willing to sleep with a dude in ME1 but wouldn't sleep with a woman in the same game." then that assumption can be wrong.

[KawaiiKatie]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

But to say that "you can only point out to me that my assumptions can be very wrong" is an incorrect statement.
It's a conflict of opinions between us.

I legitimately wonder if you even realize what a troll you are.

"Clearly, we disagree."

"We don't disagree. We just don't agree."

"What?"

"Are you even listening to me?"

"Yes, you said that we don't-"

"Now you're taking me out of context! Bwaa!"

Brava, good sir or madam. Brava. Now run along, you shall find no more troll-food here.

[CroGamer002]

For Tali.

It's hard to say.
Just her lines just can't work on FemShep. Just don't.


For Garrus.

He brags about his scars and that some woman likes scars, brags a little about sex with Female Turian and he's actually nervous about having relationship with Female Shepard.

Going with ManShep is not very likely without rewrites.


For Thane.

Whole reason why Thane goes with Shepard is because she reminds on his death wife, while she reminded him on one of Drell goddesses.

Also how can Siha work on ManShep?

[Addai]

KawaiiKatie wrote...
And yeah, more to the point, Garrus could be a woman. We have no idea what's going on in his pants.

W.  T.  F.

There certainly is risk that your Shepard could end up macking on someone that you never envisioned they were into- since in both games, I found that despite me choosing seemingly innocuous or even brusque replies, my Shepard apparently had a thing for Kaidan and was a complete horndog for Jacob.  So I hope they are a bit more clear about their paraphrases- if only to cut off the inevitable forum rage at the pass.

Would it "ruin" Garrus' character for you? Well, only you can answer that question. If you answered yes, I would ask you to very carefully consider why the breaking of gender norms makes you uncomfortable, and why Garrus' gender affects your opinion of him.

Are we paying Bioware for a gender norms re-education seminar?  That's not why I play video games.

[AngelicMachinery]

Mesina2 wrote...

For Tali.

It's hard to say.
Just her lines just can't work on FemShep. Just don't.


For Garrus.

He brags about his scars and that some woman likes scars, brags a little about sex with Female Turian and he's actually nervous about having relationship with Female Shepard.

Going with ManShep is not very likely without rewrites.


For Thane.

Whole reason why Thane goes with Shepard is because she reminds on his death wife, while she reminded him on one of Drell goddesses.

Also how can Siha work on ManShep?

No one really romances Thane,  they just want his sweet, sweet halucingenic venom.

[Ryzaki]

Mesina2 wrote...

For Tali.

It's hard to say.
Just her lines just can't work on FemShep. Just don't.

I've seen plenty of people saying just the opposite. What lines exactly don't work (that can't be gender swapped)? 

For Garrus.

He brags about his scars and that some woman likes scars, brags a little about sex with Female Turian and he's actually nervous about having relationship with Female Shepard.

Going with ManShep is not very likely without rewrites.

Does the fact that these females are turians not matter?  Does what he says about not going for humans not matter? Does the fact that Shepard has to hit on him first before he even thinks of Shepard that way. Not matter?

He brags about is scars? What? Did we *listen* to the same conversation? It was a joke not a brag. The sex with a female turian was a brag but also an info dump about how turians dealt with tension on a military vessel (the fighting bit) he told Shep because he/she is a friend. And regardless last I checked femshep there's a high chance that femshep doesn't look remotely like a female turian.  

For Thane.

Whole reason why Thane goes with Shepard is because she reminds on his death wife, while she reminded him on one of Drell goddesses.

Also how can Siha work on ManShep?

Squick. I don't know about Thane's romance much so...ick. just...ick. Nevermind. He can stay just with femshep. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 juillet 2011 - 05:18 .

[ElitePinecone]

Mesina2 wrote...

For Tali.

It's hard to say.
Just her lines just can't work on FemShep. Just don't.

This argument is flawless. Astounding. 

For Garrus.

He brags about his scars and that some woman likes scars, brags a little about sex with Female Turian and he's actually nervous about having relationship with Female Shepard.

Going with ManShep is not very likely without rewrites.

I don't think you appreciate that the gap between male and female humans is so minute compared to the gap between humans and turians, physiologically and behaviourally, as to be trivial. 

Garrus himself says he isn't attracted to Shepard for her appearance. It's the character behind the squishy human form that he likes. Human gender roles mean literally nothing to an alien. 

For Thane.

Whole reason why Thane goes with Shepard is because she reminds on his death wife, while she reminded him on one of Drell goddesses.

Also how can Siha work on ManShep?

Siha is a female term, yes, so it wouldn't work with males. 

That doesn't preclude Thane from showing an interest in Shepard of either gender. Again, alien gender roles are different to humans. They're not even remotely comparable. 

None of that means these characters should be, or are, bisexual. But if Bioware chooses to allow romances with them in ME3 with a Shepard of either gender, there's literally no reason why - realistically and in the confines of the universe - it can't take place. 

You're making the assumption that aliens behave like humans with a funny mask on. This isn't the case. We know literally next to nothing about quarian, drell or turian psychology, let alone the complexity of romantic attraction. 

[KawaiiKatie]

Addai67 wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...
And yeah, more to the point, Garrus could be a woman. We have no idea what's going on in his pants.

W.  T.  F.

You're telling me that you could distinguish male Turian genitals from female Turian genitals?