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"2000 years, the magic holds."


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#76
Shadow of Light Dragon

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I'll say this for Bioware's marketing:

They know that all they need to do to arouse fan interest in the forum is put a few random expositionary NPC comments over a trailer then watch half their forum come down with apophenia.

How 'bout we save the torches and pitchforks for when we know the full context of what's going on? If it turns out Grey Wardens trapped a darkspawn 2000 years ago when history records neither sort of creature existed, and there is no reasonable explanation for either being around before that time, then you can start Rickrolling the devs.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 09 juillet 2011 - 02:20 .


#77
Aaleel

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So people aren't dead unless the writers say they're dead. What constitutes dead to us is not the same as what constitutes dead to them. Codex entries may not be correct, Varric is an unreliable storyteller.

They can change whatever they want at any time, and they'll always have an excuse. Why even take what happened in my game, or anything I read about the lore seriously if this is the case?

#78
A Scientist being crucified

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Only possible theory : A Grey Warden travelled back in time to seal this evil.

#79
b09boy

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So...yeah, great and all that people have latched onto the darkspawn codex entries and all, but...what does that have to do with the Wardens being formed 1200 years ago? That's verging rather close on a straw man argument.

Also, though all codex entries are obviously not fact, to say this marks them all as possible fiction (relatively speaking) isn't reading between the lines very well. There are some codex entries which are told like folk lore which the developers very obviously intended for people to question and decide on themselves about, such as stories about Andraste, the Maker, Dane, Calenhad, and the darkspawn. There are others which are told with historical specifics which they obviously intended for us to take as historical fact, such as when and where the blights took place, where and how the Chantry was formed, when and where the Qunari invaded, etc. These differences in writing styles speak specifics of intentions, what's true and what's not. It can further be backed up should you recall that these specifics aren't only kept by the Chantry. For instance, the Grey Wardens certainly have their own records.

#80
In Exile

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Aaleel wrote...

So people aren't dead unless the writers say they're dead. What constitutes dead to us is not the same as what constitutes dead to them. Codex entries may not be correct, Varric is an unreliable storyteller.


Codex entries were designed not to be correct right from the start of DA:O. In fact, every writer repeatedly set the codex was purposely written to be misleading in certain cases from the in-character PoV of the PC and other NPCs. That was a feature of the game world from the start. It's totally independent from the cheap ressurections.

#81
In Exile

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b09boy wrote...

So...yeah, great and all that people have latched onto the darkspawn codex entries and all, but...what does that have to do with the Wardens being formed 1200 years ago? That's verging rather close on a straw man argument.


The point is that (and again, the timeline is already b0rked so there is no reason not to suspect Bioware just b0rked it more) the codex entries about how the Wardens were founded could also be wrong.

There are others which are told with historical specifics which they obviously intended for us to take as historical fact, such as when and where the blights took place, where and how the Chantry was formed, when and where the Qunari invaded, etc. These differences in writing styles speak specifics of intentions, what's true and what's not. It can further be backed up should you recall that these specifics aren't only kept by the Chantry. For instance, the Grey Wardens certainly have their own records.


The Grey Wardens fought the first blight for 200 years according to their records. You know what was probably priority -50? Keeping accurate records instead of trying to stop the Blight. 

#82
b09boy

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In Exile wrote...

b09boy wrote...

So...yeah, great and all that people have latched onto the darkspawn codex entries and all, but...what does that have to do with the Wardens being formed 1200 years ago? That's verging rather close on a straw man argument.


The point is that (and again, the timeline is already b0rked so there is no reason not to suspect Bioware just b0rked it more) the codex entries about how the Wardens were founded could also be wrong.

There are others which are told with historical specifics which they obviously intended for us to take as historical fact, such as when and where the blights took place, where and how the Chantry was formed, when and where the Qunari invaded, etc. These differences in writing styles speak specifics of intentions, what's true and what's not. It can further be backed up should you recall that these specifics aren't only kept by the Chantry. For instance, the Grey Wardens certainly have their own records.


The Grey Wardens fought the first blight for 200 years according to their records. You know what was probably priority -50? Keeping accurate records instead of trying to stop the Blight. 


Hello person who barely read what was written.  Nice of you to ignore half the post to suit your own arguments.  But then, I expect little more from you.

#83
DRTJR

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Considering most of the Wardens of the first blight where killed(If not all of them) we know nothing of pre-Blight1 wardens, other than a fine taste in black armor.

#84
Aaleel

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In Exile wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

So people aren't dead unless the writers say they're dead. What constitutes dead to us is not the same as what constitutes dead to them. Codex entries may not be correct, Varric is an unreliable storyteller.


Codex entries were designed not to be correct right from the start of DA:O. In fact, every writer repeatedly set the codex was purposely written to be misleading in certain cases from the in-character PoV of the PC and other NPCs. That was a feature of the game world from the start. It's totally independent from the cheap ressurections.


That doesn't answer my question of why I should take the lore or anything that happens in the game seriously.  You know with Varric being an unreliable narrator and all, and the codex entries about the world's history purposely being misleading.

Modifié par Aaleel, 09 juillet 2011 - 02:42 .


#85
Maria Caliban

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ademska wrote...

...a professional dev team with an objectively good track record...

It's link time.

Aaleel wrote...

That doesn't answer my question of why I should take the lore or anything that happens in the game seriously.

You shouldn't. Taking a work of fiction seriously tends to be a bad idea.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 09 juillet 2011 - 03:16 .


#86
In Exile

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b09boy wrote...
Hello person who barely read what was written.  Nice of you to ignore half the post to suit your own arguments.  But then, I expect little more from you.


I didn't ignore your post. There's no reason to suppose your dichotomy of ''true'' historical facts and facts we ought to suppose are false.

The formation of the Chantry:

The first Blight devastated the Tevinter Imperium. Not only had the
darkspawn ravaged the countryside, but Tevinter citizens had to face the
fact that their own gods had turned against them
. Dumat, the Old God
once known as the Dragon of Silence, had risen to silence the world, and
despite the frenzied pleas for help, the other Old Gods did nothing.
The people of the Imperium began to question their faith, murdering
priests and burning temples to punish their gods for not returning to
help.

...

The leaders of
that blessed campaign were the great barbarian warlord, Maferath, and
his wife, Andraste. Their dreams and ambitions would change the world
forever.

--From Tales of the Destruction of Thedas, by
Brother Genitivi, Chantry scholar.'''


Then

When the prophet Andraste and her husband Maferath
arrived at the head of their barbarian horde, southern Tevinter was thrown into chaos. The Imperium had
defended against invasions in the past, but now they stood without the
protection of their gods, with their army in tatters and their country
devastated by the Blight. Many felt that the timing of the invasion was
yet another of the Maker's miracles in Andraste's campaign to spread His
divine word.
Andraste was more than simply the wife of a warlord, after
all--she was also the betrothed of the Maker. Enraptured by the melodic
sound of her voice as she sang to the heavens for guidance, the Maker
Himself appeared to Andraste and proposed that she come with Him,
leaving behind the flawed world of humanity. In her wisdom, Andraste
pleaded with the Maker to return to His people and create paradise in
the world of men. The Maker agreed, but only if all of the world would
turn away from the worship of false gods and accept the Maker's divine
commandments.
Armed with the knowledge of the one true god, Andraste began the Exalted Marches into the weakened
Imperium. One of the Maker's commandments, that magic should serve man rather than rule over
him, was as honey to the souls of the downtrodden of Tevinter, who lived
under the thumbs of the magisters.
Word of Andraste's Exalted March, of her miracles and military
successes, spread far and wide. Those in the Imperium who felt the Old Gods had abandoned them eagerly listened to
the words of the Maker. Those throngs of restless citizens that
destroyed temples now did so in the name of the Maker and His prophet,
Andraste. As Maferath's armies conquered the lands of southern Tevinter,
so did Andraste's words conquer hearts.
It is said that the Maker smiled on the world at the Battle of
Valarian Fields, in which the forces of Maferath challenged and defeated
the greatest army Tevinter could muster. The southern reaches of the
mighty Imperium now lay at the mercy of barbarians. Faith in the Maker,
bolstered by such miracles, threatened to shake the foundations of the
Imperium apart.
Of course, the human heart is more powerful than
the greatest weapon, and when wounded, it is capable of the blackest of
deeds.
--From Tales of the Destruction of Thedas,
by Brother Genitivi, Chantry scholar


So is your argument that it is absolutely true that Andraste is the bride of the Maker, that she had knowledge of the one true God...?

Because otherwise, you're just inventing some false standard to suit your argument.

#87
In Exile

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Aaleel wrote...
That doesn't answer my question of why I should take the lore or anything that happens in the game seriously.  You know with Varric being an unreliable narrator and all, and the codex entries about the world's history purposely being misleading.


It's not supposed to. I'm just saying that the lore was something you were meant to doubt from the start. If that is something that bothers you, then maybe DA:O was never the series for you.

I don't know about how DA:A imports were screwed up (I played the game once and DA2 was consistent with my playthrough) but Leliana did die (lore wise) and was revived (again, lore wise) if she was killed. So there's that.

#88
TEWR

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So is your argument that it is absolutely true that Andraste is the bride of the Maker, that she had knowledge of the one true God...?

Because otherwise, you're just inventing some false standard to suit your argument.


Didn't he say that those codexes were designed to make us question their validity? Andraste especially since some accounts claim she was just a mage.


Regardless of that b09boy, just because a codex may be written in a form that implies it's true doesn't make it so. I could write an essay on how we evolved from turtles and write it in such a fashion that it seems like it is true. Doesn't mean it is.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 juillet 2011 - 03:25 .


#89
ademska

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Maria Caliban wrote...

It's link time.

aiight homes, since it's link time, you wanna hit me up with some examples of where da's writing has openly contradicted itself at this level?

this is quantifiable. you know, objective.

#90
PsychoBlonde

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Has it occurred to anyone that the "magic holding" may refer to something OTHER than whatever the Grey Wardens did?

Won't be the first time people drew wildly inaccurate readings from trailers because of the way the voiceover/images were patched together.

#91
ademska

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Didn't he say that those codexes were designed to make us question their validity? Andraste especially since some accounts claim she was just a mage.

Regardless of that b09boy, just because a codex may be written in a form that implies it's true doesn't make it so. I could write an essay on how we evolved from turtles and write it in such a fashion that it seems like it is true. Doesn't mean it is.

legit. do i need to find my old tennessee textbooks about the war of northern aggression? because those sure as hell presented themselves as true records of fact. they even had dates!!

#92
In Exile

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ademska wrote...
aiight homes, since it's link time, you wanna hit me up with some examples of where da's writing has openly contradicted itself at this level?


DA2 screwed up Anders's personal timeline from the start. Or are you talking about DA:O alone?

#93
KnightofPhoenix

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I think there is a big difference between a codex saying: "Person X is the bride of the Maker" and a codex saying: "this order was founded in such and such year."

One deals with a religious belief, while the other is supposed to be historical fact. If DA's entire history, to the point of dates, can be dismissed on a whim, then there is little point in having a history.

Sure official dates can be wrong, but not by a margin of 800 years. Unless the Wardens existed secretly 2000 year ago and only revealed themselves 800 years later.

#94
Guest_jollyorigins_*

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Edit: Oops I just shot myself in my own foot with that comment. What I meant to do was 940 years + the years from the grey wardens rise till the end of the TE calender lol (so that is 1192-890= 302 years) so 940 + 302= 1242 years... Yeah Bioware why say 2000 years then? here's the link again. Apologies bout that folks.

Modifié par jollyorigins, 09 juillet 2011 - 03:43 .


#95
TEWR

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PsychoBlonde wrote...

Has it occurred to anyone that the "magic holding" may refer to something OTHER than whatever the Grey Wardens did?

Won't be the first time people drew wildly inaccurate readings from trailers because of the way the voiceover/images were patched together.


That's what I said a few pages back, but you know..... lost in the shuffle and all that. Also, hyperbolic vitriol* and assumptions based on scant information reign supreme over trying to make sense of something.


*haven't seen it yet in this thread, but it'll happen. Just you watch.

#96
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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think there is a big difference between a codex saying: "Person X is the bride of the Maker" and a codex saying: "this order was founded in such and such year."

One deals with a religious belief, while the other is supposed to be historical fact. If DA's entire history, to the point of dates, can be dismissed on a whim, then there is little point in having a history.

Sure official dates can be wrong, but not by a margin of 800 years. Unless the Wardens existed secretly 2000 year ago and only revealed themselves 800 years later.


Well, I think this all got started when we kind of switched gears talking about how the darkspawn were created.

Regarding the Wardens, I tend to agree, but I would like to think there's some explanation regarding that that we simply don't know yet on account of not having the DLC to play yet.

Modifié par Filament, 09 juillet 2011 - 03:38 .


#97
In Exile

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think there is a big difference between a codex saying: "Person X is the bride of the Maker" and a codex saying: "this order was founded in such and such year."


But why? I mean, today, absolutely, we have pretty good methods. But why should we believe that the clearly medieval chronology of the DA world is accurate?

Again, I'm pretty sure Bioware flubbed. I just don't see how any of these arguments work.

One deals with a religious belief, while the other is supposed to be historical fact. If DA's entire history, to the point of dates, can be dismissed on a whim, then there is little point in having a history.


They're both reported by an unreliable narrator. DA's history, the further it goes back, is really unreliable.

Morrigain just about beats you over the head with it, talking about what Flemeth says really happened back when she was alive and what the Ferelden population believes.

Sure official dates can be wrong, but not by a margin of 800 years. Unless the Wardens existed secretly 2000 year ago and only revealed themselves 800 years later.


Or the darkspawn are very old, they are a particular kind of magical disease... and the blight is a special kind of extension of it that only came around when the things that were the old gods were physically infected with what the darkspawn carried.

#98
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There is always one word to describe the reason for this mystery, one Bioware has become quite associated with now in this series...Retcon.

#99
KnightofPhoenix

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In Exile wrote...
They're both reported by an unreliable narrator. DA's history, the further it goes back, is really unreliable.

Morrigain just about beats you over the head with it, talking about what Flemeth says really happened back when she was alive and what the Ferelden population believes.


This is different. It's two different interpretations of a same period / event. Everyone agrees that Cormac fought someone around that specific time, though interpretation differ on what / who.

I know there are unreliable narrators and I am not saying they are 100% accurate. But unreliable to the point of having a 800 year margin error? I think that's pushing it a bit. But I am talking about the Warden order being founded. I agree that the origin and age of the darkspawn is not something we know atm.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 juillet 2011 - 03:55 .


#100
ademska

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In Exile wrote...

ademska wrote...
aiight homes, since it's link time, you wanna hit me up with some examples of where da's writing has openly contradicted itself at this level?


DA2 screwed up Anders's personal timeline from the start. Or are you talking about DA:O alone?

if you're talking about the timeline of awakening vs da2 start, that is a small-scale timeline flub, not a lore retcon. if that doesn't cut it for you, it's also only one example, and it doesn't come close to an 800-year mistake.

i'm inclined to believe the majority of dates presented by the codex, but not the content and context.

after all, to use my old example, i learned in school that the civil war ended in 1865, same as everybody, but the version i learned... let's just say i wasn't being hyperbolic when i called it the "war of northern aggression" upthread.