144 réponses à ce sujet

[Nerdage]

"The grey wardens build this prison ... but even the best magic fades."

"Two thousand years, the magic holds."

That doesn't mean it's necessarily been 2000 years, just that that's how long it takes to fade. Maybe something happened that broke it early, possibly something related to what happens in the Finding [spoiler] quest in act 3, or the awakened, or the whole Hawke bloodline thing?

I also don't think the guy saying "2000 years" is the trapped darkspawn, considering he says "but you hold the key to his death." (at least I think he says that, is there a subtitled version?), I suspect the voice belongs to the warden at 00:40.

And remember that cinematic trailers tend to mix up sentences and take them out of context, I wouldn't take any of the trailer at face value just yet. I'm guessing the punctuation in those quotes, it seems to say "Broken" after the "magic holds" bit but I don't know what it means or even if it's part of the same sentence.

Modifié par nerdage, 09 juillet 2011 - 04:01 .

[DRTJR]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
 Andraste especially since some accounts claim she was just a mage.

I don't see how her being or not being a mage errode the validity of her Bride of the maker status. If anything it makes sence that she was a mage since mages remain consios in the fade and thus she would remeber her meeting the maker

[ademska]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
This is different. It's two different interpretations of a same period / event. Everyone agrees that Cormac fought someone around a specific time, though interpretation differ on what / who.

I know there are unreliable narrators and I am not saying they are 100% accurate. But unreliable to the point of having a 800 year margin error? I think that's pushing it a bit. But I am talking about the Warden order being founded. I agree that the origin and age of the darkspawn is not something we know atm.

damn but i wish i hadn't posted before i read this.

i don't understand why everyone's so stuck on this notion that the trailer implied the wardens imprisoned the darkspawn dude. if you drop that assumption (because, really, it's a trailer, and everything is spliced together nonsensically to sound cool), this stupid point of contention is gone.

[edit: or, in fact, that the guy has been there 2000 years at all.]

jesus, just wait and see before making unfounded assumptions.

Modifié par ademska, 09 juillet 2011 - 04:01 .

[In Exile]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
This is different. It's two different interpretations of a same period / event. Everyone agrees that Cormac fought someone around that specific time, though interpretation differ on what / who.

That's a fair point. But if you're willing to call the actual events into question, why not the method of dating?

I know there are unreliable narrators and I am not saying they are 100% accurate. But unreliable to the point of having a 800 year margin error? I think that's pushing it a bit. But I am talking about the Warden order being founded. I agree that the origin and age of the darkspawn is not something we know atm.

But we have the first blight, where everything was ravaged and records were lost. You're acting as if somehow knowledge like that can be preserved really easily at a medieval technology level. It's not as if they have archeologists or historians in the modern sense.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ademska wrote...
i don't understand why everyone's so stuck on this notion that the trailer implied the wardens imprisoned the darkspawn dude. if you drop that assumption (because, really, it's a trailer, and everything is spliced together nonsensically to sound cool), this stupid point of contention is gone.

jesus, just wait and see before making unfounded assumptions.

I am not assuming anything.

I am just saying, that if it turns out that the Wardens were there 2000 years ago with no good explanation as to why it's reported 800 years later, then this is a bad retcon.

But I haven't said that the DLC did that, I don't know yet.

[In Exile]

ademska wrote...
if you're talking about the timeline of awakening vs da2 start, that is a small-scale timeline flub, not a lore retcon. if that doesn't cut it for you, it's also only one example, and it doesn't come close to an 800-year mistake.

There's also the various ways Anders could have actually existed merged with Justice in DA2.

i'm inclined to believe the majority of dates presented by the codex, but not the content and context.

Why?

after all, to use my old example, i learned in school that the civil war ended in 1865, same as everybody, but the version i learned... let's just say i wasn't being hyperbolic when i called it the "war of northern aggression" upthread.

That's a terrible example. We're talking about something 156 years in the past in the modern era.

What you're really talking about is (for example) us being able to date when the City of Troy existed just because it was (probably) in modern Turkey. Just because the Wardens think they are 1245 years old doesn't mean they are.

I'm not seeing why dates are somehow sacred but events aren't.

[In Exile]

ademska wrote...
i don't understand why everyone's so stuck on this notion that the trailer implied the wardens imprisoned the darkspawn dude. if you drop that assumption (because, really, it's a trailer, and everything is spliced together nonsensically to sound cool), this stupid point of contention is gone.

jesus, just wait and see before making unfounded assumptions.

This is totally possible. I just wouldn't be surprised if Bioware b0rked things.

What I am saying right now, though, is that historically speaking, dates aren't special. Presently, some of our dates are special because we have documents keeping a very strict date. But the further you go back in the time, the more you rely, essentially, on conjecture and what other people said without converging sources, which may well be BS.

[KnightofPhoenix]

In Exile wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
This is different. It's two different interpretations of a same period / event. Everyone agrees that Cormac fought someone around that specific time, though interpretation differ on what / who.

That's a fair point. But if you're willing to call the actual events into question, why not the method of dating?

I know there are unreliable narrators and I am not saying they are 100% accurate. But unreliable to the point of having a 800 year margin error? I think that's pushing it a bit. But I am talking about the Warden order being founded. I agree that the origin and age of the darkspawn is not something we know atm.

But we have the first blight, where everything was ravaged and records were lost. You're acting as if somehow knowledge like that can be preserved really easily at a medieval technology level. It's not as if they have archeologists or historians in the modern sense.

Because no one gains much from lying / misconstructing / misinterpretting dates. Not a 800 year difference anyhow.

I am not sure I'd say medieval history could be that wrong. They were not horrible at preserving records and having dates (and those who were inacurate were so by a small margin). As for the Blight. A fair point, but I am assuming that all of Tevinter history prior to it was lost as well?
And like I said. I would not mind if the Wardens existed secretly 2000 years ago and were only revealed much later.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 juillet 2011 - 04:09 .

[Eterna]

Oh here we go again.......

[jlb524]

What are the writer's motivations for creating this 'retcon' anyway? They could have just had him say "1000 years" and called it a day. I think there's more to it and we have to wait and see what that entails.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

In Exile wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
This is different. It's two different interpretations of a same period / event. Everyone agrees that Cormac fought someone around that specific time, though interpretation differ on what / who.

That's a fair point. But if you're willing to call the actual events into question, why not the method of dating?

I know there are unreliable narrators and I am not saying they are 100% accurate. But unreliable to the point of having a 800 year margin error? I think that's pushing it a bit. But I am talking about the Warden order being founded. I agree that the origin and age of the darkspawn is not something we know atm.

But we have the first blight, where everything was ravaged and records were lost. You're acting as if somehow knowledge like that can be preserved really easily at a medieval technology level. It's not as if they have archeologists or historians in the modern sense.

Because no one gains much from lying / misconstructing / misinterpretting dates. Not a 800 year difference anyhow.

I am not sure I'd say medieval history could be that wrong. They were not horrible at preserving records and having dates (and those who were inacurate were so by a small margin). As for the Blight. A fair point, but I am assuming that all of Tevinter history prior to it was lost as well?
And like I said. I would not mind if the Wardens existed secretly 2000 years ago and were only revealed much later.

I can't even think of a good explanation to explain how they existed prior to the First Blight that wouldn't make it seem like a bad retcon.

I mean, if there's this threat and you found an order to fight it, naturally you'd want to inform people of the threat right?

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I can't even think of a good explanation to explain how they existed prior to the First Blight that wouldn't make it seem like a bad retcon.

I mean, if there's this threat and you found an order to fight it, naturally you'd want to inform people of the threat right?

Not necessarily. They may have thought that the taint could be containned and that revealing the darkspawn to the public would create too much panic. So they established a secret order to secretly fight them underground. But they miscalculated when it exploded into a blight. That's when they revealed their existence to the world.

I could buy that for instance.

And why am I even arguing? I agree that the trailer is no indication at all about this. I didn't mind when I first heard it.

[ademska]

@KoP
i was only quoting you because you a priori refuted the point i had just made, lol.

my issue isn't with you, it's with people in this thread who are already actually accusing bioware of dicking over their lore when a) the lore isn't set in stone and  the dlc isn't even out yet jesus christ


@In Exile
i don't hold either sacred. i'm just inclined to believe that the majority of dates are accurate. as in, >51%. and your analogy is no better, because thedan history and methods of archaeology historical study are completely disparate from our world's. in my analogy, at least, i was describing a very real situation where dates were accurate but the information presented was biased and, in some cases, inaccurate.

what we know, concretely, is that the codices are not reliable. period.

[erynnar]

I think I'll wait to see what the DLC actually says before I start ****ing.

[ademska]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I can't even think of a good explanation to explain how they existed prior to the First Blight that wouldn't make it seem like a bad retcon.

I mean, if there's this threat and you found an order to fight it, naturally you'd want to inform people of the threat right?

what a coincidence, i can think of like a billion reasons, all of them relating to the end of act 1 and the codex entry on darkspawn in the dwarf origins, that make plenty of sense. it's not cheap, and it's been pretty heavily foreshadowed.

if i italicize it enough, maybe people will get what i am saying

[ipgd]

Do the Wardens necessarily have to be the ones who imprisoned him in the first place? That they came to be his jailers later isn't impossible.

WAIT SOMEONE ALREADY SAID THIS I SHOULD READ THREADS **** it it's late i'm going to bed

Modifié par ipgd, 09 juillet 2011 - 04:27 .

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I can't even think of a good explanation to explain how they existed prior to the First Blight that wouldn't make it seem like a bad retcon.

I mean, if there's this threat and you found an order to fight it, naturally you'd want to inform people of the threat right?

Not necessarily. They may have thought that the taint could be containned and that revealing the darkspawn to the public would create too much panic. So they established a secret order to secretly fight them underground. But they miscalculated when it exploded into a blight. That's when they revealed their existence to the world.

I could buy that for instance.

And why am I even arguing? I agree that the trailer is no indication at all about this. I didn't mind when I first heard it.

hmmm... I should've thought of that. It does seem like the obvious reasoning



The one thing I want to know though is how the hell they discovered the Joining. Doesn't that require Archdemon blood? Or would it be logical to assume that they were at that time just a bunch of skilled, but otherwise completely ordinary, warriors?

[TEWR]

ademska wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I can't even think of a good explanation to explain how they existed prior to the First Blight that wouldn't make it seem like a bad retcon.

I mean, if there's this threat and you found an order to fight it, naturally you'd want to inform people of the threat right?

what a coincidence, i can think of like a billion reasons, all of them relating to the end of act 1 and the codex entry on darkspawn in the dwarf origins, that make plenty of sense. it's not cheap, and it's been pretty heavily foreshadowed.

if i italicize it enough, maybe people will get what i am saying

I know of those reasonings (I mean I am a Dwarf, plus I mentioned them pages back), but those would apply more to the dwarves than to humans.

I'm talking about the Order of the Grey Wardens existence, not the Darkspawn. So the emergence of the Darkspawn would affect the Dwarves before the humans.


let me edit this because I think I'm starting to make my posts in need of clarification because my brain is tired right now:

The Grey Wardens, if they existed 800 years prior to the records we've seen, would need a solid reason for founding a secret order to fight the Darkspawn and not alert anyone to the threat.

Darkspawn, as we know, are far more ancient than we think. Many clues point to the Dwarves being linked to them (codex and Act 1's ending). But.... the Grey Wardens, how did they exist in secrecy?

My guess (using some of KoP's reasoning), a group of adventurers (warriors, mages, etc.) saw the Darkspawn killing Dwarves when they went into the Deep Roads for trading, and a survivor told them of the threat that the Dwarves now faced. So... they gathered together many people and decided to fight this threat themselves in secrecy. They thought the threat could be contained and there would be no need for panic.

Despite the fall of the Dwarven kingdom, they still stayed in secret and fought the Darkspawn. Because the surface was safe.


When all that changed, they realized that they ****ed up.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 juillet 2011 - 04:36 .

[Agelico]

I don't get it people - why are you so stubborn about that darkspawn's imprisonment for 2000 years? It could be, like nerdage said, just a theoretical period for magic to fade. It wasn't like "I, ancient darkspawn, was imprisoned here 2000 years ago by Grey Wardens muahahahaha" in the trailer. Besides - was there a tapescript from devs that I missed? Why "two thousand years", exactly? Why can't it be "to thousand years the magic holds" just meaning that it lasts maximum for a thousand years?..

All I'm saying - isn't it a bit early for conspiracy theories and accusing devs of not knowing their own creation and its timeline that badly?

[Merilsell]

b09boy wrote...

I really hope Bioware didn't just screw up their own lore again.  This quote is from the Legacy trailer, presumably from the big bad sealed away in what has been described as a Grey Warden prison.

How would this screw up lore, one might ask?  The Grey Wardens were created 1200 years ago, a century into the first blight.  Whatever is trapped in there, by lore it shouldn't have been by the magic of any Warden.

It's not that this would be the first one, however. I'm writing a DA:O Blight-FF, so this is nothing new to me.

[Theagg]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think there is a big difference between a codex saying: "Person X is the bride of the Maker" and a codex saying: "this order was founded in such and such year."

One deals with a religious belief, while the other is supposed to be historical fact. If DA's entire history, to the point of dates, can be dismissed on a whim, then there is little point in having a history.

Sure official dates can be wrong, but not by a margin of 800 years. Unless the Wardens existed secretly 2000 year ago and only revealed themselves 800 years later.

Sure they can, Even real 'recorded' historical event dates can vary by such margins, hundreds of years depending on who is referenced. Again, I will refer people to Egyptian chronolgy in which 'experts' disagree and offer differing dates for particular events and when particular rulers were in power. There is a mainstream consensus about the overall chronology but there are also other historians and groups who if asked will give timelines for those rulers, events and periods that vary markedly from the mainstream chronology.

Some of those disagreed timelines vary by as much as 300 years.

And that's historians in disagreement in our real, modern world and historical dating for Egyptian events has shifted quite a bit over the last century

So, I can well imagine historians in a 'medieval' Thedas quite easily being out by several hundred years when referencing the founding of an organisation well over 1000 years earlier..

Modifié par Theagg, 09 juillet 2011 - 12:11 .

[In Exile]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Because no one gains much from lying / misconstructing / misinterpretting dates. Not a 800 year difference anyhow.

It's not really about gaining anything. It's more about failing.

I am not sure I'd say medieval history could be that wrong. They were not horrible at preserving records and having dates (and those who were inacurate were so by a small margin). As for the Blight. A fair point, but I am assuming that all of Tevinter history prior to it was lost as well?

Much of it was lost. And Tevinter itself was spared Minrathos. We if the Wardens are based in the Anderfels and originate from there (where the devastation was incredible, the dates could be wrong).

And like I said. I would not mind if the Wardens existed secretly 2000 years ago and were only revealed much later.

Me too. But thinking on it, I think I prefer historical inaccuracy.

ademska wrote...
i don't hold either sacred. i'm just inclined
to believe that the majority of dates are accurate. as in,
>51%. and your analogy is no better, because thedan history and
methods of archaeology historical study are completely disparate from
our world's. in my analogy, at least, i was describing a very real
situation where dates were accurate but the information presented was
biased and, in some cases, inaccurate.

Why, though? Why are dates better than events?

We don't have a historical cataclysm comparable to the blight.

[upsettingshorts]

Merilsell wrote...

b09boy wrote...

I really hope Bioware didn't just screw up their own lore again.  This quote is from the Legacy trailer, presumably from the big bad sealed away in what has been described as a Grey Warden prison.

How would this screw up lore, one might ask?  The Grey Wardens were created 1200 years ago, a century into the first blight.  Whatever is trapped in there, by lore it shouldn't have been by the magic of any Warden.

It's not that this would be the first one, however. I'm writing a DA:O Blight-FF, so this is nothing new to me.

An inconsistency in dating is not a plothole.  It's... an inconsistency in dating.

Unless that inconsistency creates issues with the story beyond "someone, somewhere, got a date wrong" that defies logical explanation. Until the DLC comes out, there simply isn't enough data to claim otherwise.

But given this forum uses the terms "plot hole" and "retcon" like they're condiments, I probably shouldn't even bother.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 09 juillet 2011 - 01:38 .

[Aaleel]

Well from what I'm getting from the trailer it says that the Grey Wardens built the prison, and that the magic itself lasts 2000 years. But the magic must still be in place or the darkspawn in question would be walking around free.

The darkspawn says in the trailer if I can't leave with you, I'll leave through you, so it seems that it's still trapped there and the 2000 year time limit on the magic has not run out. Maybe that's why they need the blood. I never heard anything in the trailer say that the 2000 years had passed or that the darkspawn was 2000 years old.

It says 2000 years the magic holds, but it's been broken. But you hold the key to his death.

Only thing is, the Grey Warden saying even the best magic fades is confusing.

Modifié par Aaleel, 09 juillet 2011 - 01:41 .