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[Theagg]

Aaleel wrote...

It says 2000 years the magic holds, but it's been broken. But you hold the key to his death.

Only thing is, the Grey Warden saying even the best magic fades is confusing.

Well, maybe thats just a reference to entropy in operation, Thedan style.

[KLUME777]

ademska wrote...

no, you don't actually have any idea what this dlc is about. you have vague hints from an achievement list, a murky 25-word synopsis preview, and a trailer with some darkspawn in it. there is absolutely no reason whatsoever, given the precedent the da team has set with their lore, to assume you know enough to say they made such a gigantic mistake. plenty of people in this thread, including myself, have put forth both viable explanations and reasons why the info we've been presented is possibly unreliable. don't forget, the codices are almost entirely POV.

yeah, hepler wrote it, but she didn't design and code and quality check everything all by herself, and she does have bosses who take their intellectual property very seriously. fwiw, anders is my bro, so i'm aiight with her at the helm.

like i said, if it comes out and they did **** up massively, i'll be right there with you on the complain train.


and i'd prefer they begin to hint at a real darkspawn origin in the dlc, give us something to speculate on with legitimacy, then elaborate further in a real game/expansion -- or, hell, just hint at it and leave it murky.

Oh come on... We do have an idea what the DLC is about.

Yes, there could be a reason behind the DLC, but it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that Bioware made a mistake, as it never alluded to anything more than Grey Wardens. Its Biowares fault for putting the 2000 years line in the trailer, but not giving any sort of hint or existence that it is, not, in fact, a mistake on their part.

So far there is no evidence to suggest that this is not a mistake.

Bioware should clear this up soon.

Modifié par KLUME777, 09 juillet 2011 - 02:04 .

[tmp7704]

Considering this thread deals at length with how information provided by DA can be inaccurate and affected by personal biases/ignorance/manipulation... why is everyone blindly believing the 2000 years figure is totally reliable?

[Aaleel]

tmp7704 wrote...

Considering this thread deals at length with how information provided by DA can be inaccurate and affected by personal biases/ignorance/manipulation... why is everyone blindly believing the 2000 years figure is totally reliable?

To me I got the impression from the trailer that the magic seal was broken and never reached the 2000 year mark.  So we don't know how far into the 2000 it was.

That's all people had to point out, instead of discrediting the timeline and bascially saying every thing you've seen, heard and read since your Origin in the first game may not be accurate, and no one really knows anything for sure.

[In Exile]

tmp7704 wrote...

Considering this thread deals at length with how information provided by DA can be inaccurate and affected by personal biases/ignorance/manipulation... why is everyone blindly believing the 2000 years figure is totally reliable?

Oh, I totally don't, other than Bioware doesn't exactly seem to be concerned for the timeline so... let's say I wouldn't be surprised if the timeline was b0rked.

I just find the whole '' the lore is ruined forever!'' comments to be a little silly.

[Theagg]

In Exile wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Considering this thread deals at length with how information provided by DA can be inaccurate and affected by personal biases/ignorance/manipulation... why is everyone blindly believing the 2000 years figure is totally reliable?

Oh, I totally don't, other than Bioware doesn't exactly seem to be concerned for the timeline so... let's say I wouldn't be surprised if the timeline was b0rked.

I just find the whole '' the lore is ruined forever!'' comments to be a little silly.

Exactly this and irrespective of the 'truth' in the DLC or not re the '2000 years', I'm as perplexed as ever that given the nature of this fictional game, which features an 'in game' codex/bible/set of holy scriptures and myths amalgam,  written by 'in game' historians, politicians and theologians over many years all with a particular 'in game' agenda ( a codex that PC characters are also meant to reference in a role playing sense.) .....

that we end up with players who seem to feel that codex should be factual truth about Thedas and that once anything in game deviates from what they see as fact, they start attempting to ball bust the writers, Boware etc.

Very strange. Its almost as though they are treating the codex as a real world bible that shall not be challenged.

[In Exile]

Theagg wrote...
Very strange. Its almost as though they are treating the codex as a real world bible that shall not be challenged.

I think it comes down to people wanting a degree of certitude in the world. Aleela ( I think) made the point that if the lore is unreliable, Varric is unreliable, and things the PC directly did can be overwritten (Leliana coming back to life) it essentially feels as if the writers can change the world at a whim.

[Nerevar-as]

Theagg wrote...

In Exile wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Considering this thread deals at length with how information provided by DA can be inaccurate and affected by personal biases/ignorance/manipulation... why is everyone blindly believing the 2000 years figure is totally reliable?

Oh, I totally don't, other than Bioware doesn't exactly seem to be concerned for the timeline so... let's say I wouldn't be surprised if the timeline was b0rked.

I just find the whole '' the lore is ruined forever!'' comments to be a little silly.

Exactly this and irrespective of the 'truth' in the DLC or not re the '2000 years', I'm as perplexed as ever that given the nature of this fictional game, which features an 'in game' codex/bible/set of holy scriptures and myths amalgam,  written by 'in game' historians, politicians and theologians over many years all with a particular 'in game' agenda ( a codex that PC characters are also meant to reference in a role playing sense.) .....

that we end up with players who seem to feel that codex should be factual truth about Thedas and that once anything in game deviates from what they see as fact, they start attempting to ball bust the writers, Boware etc.

Very strange. Its almost as though they are treating the codex as a real world bible that shall not be challenged.

800 years is quite a mistake in the dates, reliable codex or not. Either the spell was to last 2000 years and was cut by half, or someone thought 2000 years before gamedate sounded cool and didn´t bother to check the dates. Nothing new there, I remember many ME2 planet descriptions hadn´t been checked with the planet.

[Wulfram]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Darkspawn, as we know, are far more ancient than we think.

I don't think there's anything that points to them existing until shortly before the first blight - Paragon Aeducan spent the early part of his life keeping the deep roads free from surface bandits.

[Drz]

Why can't we just believe that the Conductor was improsoned 2000 years ago and the prison was later build around his prison? You know for safety outside of mere magic, but an actual tower.

[aries1001]

As for Codex Entries, both in DA:O, DA:A and DA2 Gaider has said that they are written from someone's perspective. And thus to them e.g. Brother Genitivi or Sister Petrice are 'the truth.' e.g. viewed from the perspective of Genitive and others, they do tell the 'truth' about what happened. He also said, either at the same time or some other time, that the dwarves and elves, not at least the (free) Dalish elves have another perspective on events that's happened during -ahem- history throughout Ferelden. And thus to them, their perspective on the -ahem- history - is the 'truth.'

This means that you'll need to look at who has written the -cough. codex entries to decide whether or not they tell the -ahem- truth. And what is truth anyway....especially historical truths....as they are always written by the victors e.g. The Chantry in Dragon Age - and the Chantry do teach us about Magisters going to Heaven, being cast out and thus created the blight and the darkspawn...

Let me clear here:

I've never trusted this for varius reasons. I've always thought it was little to convenient for the Chantry to teach this, since this means they now have an excuse for almost everything i.e. the exalted marches etc.
This is also contradicted by the dwarves telling us that they saw the darkspawn first - maybe even 2000 years ago....

As for the story in this dlc being similar to the story in another Bioware game, Yrkoon already pointed out the likeness to Watcher's Keep (from Throne of Bhaal expansion to BG2). My only question is still this:
Who is the conductor and what does he conduct? An orchestrra of singing darkspawn...?

[Tirfan]

^ I've said it before, If this DLC is a musical I'm buying it. I want to see Merril sing about bunnies.

[Aaleel]

Believing codexes about religion is one thing.

But when you have an order like the Grey Wardens, they usually aren't off by 800 years when tracking their own history.

[In Exile]

Aaleel wrote..
But when you have an order like the Grey Wardens, they usually aren't off by 800 years when tracking their own history.

I would actually say that the Wardens have every reason not to give a ****. And they did convert to the Chantry a while back, based on what Drakon did. Maybe part of that was a deal on what kind of history they teach.

[Sutekh]

aries1001 wrote...

Who is the conductor and what does he conduct? An orchestrra of singing darkspawn...?

Actually...

They keep talking about "hearing the song". Maybe he's the one who conducts it? Give "the Song" some kind of structure?

[Aaleel]

In Exile wrote...

Aaleel wrote..
But when you have an order like the Grey Wardens, they usually aren't off by 800 years when tracking their own history.

I would actually say that the Wardens have every reason not to give a ****. And they did convert to the Chantry a while back, based on what Drakon did. Maybe part of that was a deal on what kind of history they teach.

I thought the Grey Wardens were around before the Chantry calendar even starts, all the records before that come from the Tevinter, all Thedus time starts with the Tevinter.  Everything spread out from them, so it's the Tevinter that would have to be lying to help keep and support the Chantry's version of events.  Which doesn't really make sense to me.

[JaegerBane]

Drazlol wrote...

Why can't we just believe that the Conductor was improsoned 2000 years ago and the prison was later build around his prison? You know for safety outside of mere magic, but an actual tower.

That's one explanation, though it presupposes the Darkspawn existed hundreds of years before they were first spotted. Which could happen, I guess, but from everything that we know, the 'Darkspawn' themselves require the existence of other species to exist. Virtually every darkspawn we see is a corrupted version of something else. You would have thought that they can;t have evolved independantly...

[Sutekh]

JaegerBane wrote...

That's one explanation, though it presupposes the Darkspawn existed hundreds of years before they were first spotted. Which could happen, I guess, but from everything that we know, the 'Darkspawn' themselves require the existence of other species to exist. Virtually every darkspawn we see is a corrupted version of something else. You would have thought that they can;t have evolved independantly...

Here's an idea: thousands of years ago, there were the dwarves, who lived underground. Something happened, due to lyrium or red lyrium (we've seen this one has a strong corrupting quality). Might have happened gradually or brutally. So the first Darkspawn were "born". They hid because they were too few, until, one other day, they somehow discover the broodmothers thing. They start multiplying a lot faster, until they're strong enough to show themselves.

So far only Genlocks exist, but once they're able to break through the dwarven defenses and up to the surface, they apply the broodmother method to other species (or maybe they capture visitors). At one point, they stumble unto Old Gods, corrupt them in turn, and boom, you have a Blight. Between their "creation" and the first sight, some might have evolve further and become things such as the Conductor.

[tmp7704]

Tirfan wrote...

^ I've said it before, If this DLC is a musical I'm buying it. I want to see Merril sing about bunnies.

Afraid the Darkspawn on Ice is going to be the next DLC, not this one ;/

[In Exile]

Aaleel wrote...
I thought the Grey Wardens were around before the Chantry calendar even starts, all the records before that come from the Tevinter, all Thedus time starts with the Tevinter. 

The Grey Wardens formed in the Anderfels. I don't recall if that was part of Tevinter. But it was a part of Tevinter that was ravaged by the first blight. So if there were records (and the Wardens were older) then documents could have been lost.

Prior to the blight, the Wardens would just be a blood drinking warrior sect. That's not something that would get major attention by any historian.

Minrathos had to deal with slave revolts (and still does!), the blight, Andraste marching on the capital, frequent wars with the qunari... it's not very hard to imagine that information on some minor warrior sect gets lost in the shuffle. 

Everything spread out from them, so it's the Tevinter that would have to be lying to help keep and support the Chantry's version of events.  Which doesn't really make sense to me.

Tevinter converted to the Chantry and the magisters were thrown down for a time. That's the best point for historical revision. And the Wardens converted too. 

What I'm saying is that there could be political considerations for a white-wash.

Again - I think it's more likely Bioware flubbed on the timeline (or it relates to something else) than Bioware having a master plan about the Warden's staying secret. I'm just saying, there's no reason to take the codex for granted.