128 réponses à ce sujet

[Proleric]

Further to this thread:

sidefx79 wrote...

....it does seem that the builder community for DA is a bit dead... what games are ex-DANWNNWN2 builders working on these days?

indio wrote...

I don't know. There are some still working with NWN2, and there are some good builders here on these boards. But the community died. There's been nothing since NWN2, which is I don't know how many years ago. I genuinely wish DA had become something more.

Although the DAO builder community is nowhere near as active as NWN/NWN2, there are still quite a few of us.

The focus seems to be more on projects than on the toolset forum these days.

My impression is that there's been some return to NWN/NWN2 modding and/or playing new games (e.g. TW2), but sadly AFAIK there's no obvious successor to the Bioware modding community.

Even so, for those of us who have persisted with DAO, the toolset has been very rewarding. There is still some exciting work in the pipeline, so I'm hoping for a long sunset period, in which perhaps a few experienced modders are tempted back to DAO.

[-Semper-]

i am in between. creating placeables and working in the toolset for nwn2 while waiting for a new lightmapper (or even a toolset update). i hated the feeling of seeing beautiful maps cursed with black dots ruining the whole scene. not to speak about all the other bugs lurking around and the countless hours to bake a level^^

i am also more into the dnd rule system. what i miss is the huge potential of the cinematic editor, the flexibility of building maps and the face morphing system. all in all it feels like the missing support and the rushed sequel left a big hole within the da:o community.

Modifié par -Semper-, 09 juillet 2011 - 08:36 .

[Proleric]

Funnily enough, lack of support isn't really a problem - there are just some inconveniences that we know how to work around.

Though Bioware's DA team occasionally hint at toolset enhancement, in practice there's been no corporate will to commit resource.

I have no complaint about that. We are where we are.

Indeed, arguably it's a good thing that Bioware has largely left us to our own devices, just keeping the site ticking over. Once a supplier has become remote from its builder community, intervention can do more harm than good. Again, not a complaint, just a fact of life.

There's nothing wrong with being in a sunset era. Some amazing things have been done in NWN since the final toolset release three years ago. We have the advantage that DAO is a much more modern starting point.

Modifié par Proleric1, 09 juillet 2011 - 09:45 .

[-Semper-]

Proleric1 wrote...

We have the advantage that DAO is a much more modern starting point.

sadly that's only in terms of graphics/presentation. imo the biggest drawback is the lack of varity in monsters, classes, races and the "hardcoded" gui. the majority of a modding community creates stuff only with the help of the vanilla content. using the example of da:o that's very limiting, therefore we won't see as many and diverse modules as the nwn/nwn2 community created over the past years.

it's now 1.5 years after the release of da:o and the community is already in it's last breaths. there are only a handful of modules in the works and i bet after this there won't be any more to come. 2 years after their relase both nwn/nwn2 were in their prime age of modding with content from the developers and the community too.

with skyrim on the horizon the action fans will leave. those who like party based rpg and/or persistant worlds with a fantastic dm client will still play nwn/nwn2 with it's huge diversity. dunno what's left for da:o fans... battling darkspawn and spiders year after year isn't very interesting

Modifié par -Semper-, 09 juillet 2011 - 10:46 .

[princecorg]

I'm still working on new props for the builders and will release a first pack soon.
However working with the toolset is a very long process and i think that a lot of people just have give up or are paying attention to new games.

[Proleric]

That's good to hear.

The models available to DAO at present are relatively limited, but I much prefer its presentation capability for storytelling.

Not that there's anything wrong with doing new work for NWN/NWN2, of course.

[Challseus]

For me, it's a little sad to see the community as is. I joined the NWN community in 2004, and was blown away! I naively thought we would have something similiar with this, but, here we are...

For me, I'm still working on my project, and will definitely release it. Yes, working with this toolset is more of a challenge than with the NWN or NWN2 ones, but in my opinion, the final product eclipses what could be done elsewhere. At least for my project...

If not for anything else, it's been a long learning experience that I'm sure will benefit me in the long run.

[pizzapicante]

Maybe it has to do with projects being largely focused on their unique sites, like the Baldurs Gate Redux project (it is still active no?), maybe if the few real groups tried to raise a recruitment campaign both here, the nexus and other modder forums, amybe it would spark new interest, maybe? I dont know.

[Cuvieronius]

We are still alive and going strong...hehe. Working on Module 2 http://social.biowar...m/project/4831/

I made the transition from modding BG2 forever, straight to DA. I toyed with NWN a bit, but wasnt impressed with the graphics. Maybe we should have a recruitment drive, hehe. We could sure use help. But also... I am willing to help with other projects for advice and asset sharing/swapping.

I think the modding community is still very strong... a little disheartened by DA2, but still here. And time will tell if Origins has the staying power that other games had. All my friends are still modding BG2, hehe. Nothing wrong with that, and I sure miss that game. Just trying to do our part to bring it into 21st century.

[AmstradHero]

-Semper- wrote...
with skyrim on the horizon the action fans will leave. those who like party based rpg and/or persistant worlds with a fantastic dm client will still play nwn/nwn2 with it's huge diversity. dunno what's left for da:o fans... battling darkspawn and spiders year after year isn't very interesting

Personally, I don't see myself going back to NWN2, as the player community already felt as though it was rapidly dwindling when I left several years ago. NWN1... there are far too many shortcomings in the game/toolset for me to want to do anything of a significant size. "Where to from here?" is a question to which I don't rightfully know the answer.

Cuvieronius wrote...
I think the modding community is still very strong... a little disheartened by DA2, but still here. And time will tell if Origins has the staying power that other games had. All my friends are still modding BG2, hehe. Nothing wrong with that, and I sure miss that game. Just trying to do our part to bring it into 21st century.

To be honest, I'm not sure DA2 had a negative effect.  People who felt it was too much of an action RPG are harkening back to DAO because it gives them what they love. Those who are new to DAO (and like it) are still a potential audience, provided that they can be convinced to try the mods - which personally I still feel is one of the biggest hurdles for DAO.

As for my own modding efforts, I'm still ticking along and I guarantee that The Shattered War will be released. However, like many other projects, most of the updates are on my own personal blog - it allows me to talk not only about the mod, but about general game design issues (and more) with freedom.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 09 juillet 2011 - 11:18 .

[DahliaLynn]

I still believe that DA:O has a continuously growing audience, though at a slower rate due to the release of DA2, (and might even increase somewhat because of it as well). I can say that I along with the rest of the team involved am hard at work on the following project
social.bioware.com/project/4036 which is coming along quite nicely!. The DA Toolset Wiki is also under current serious rennovation as well, so things aren't really dead yet!!!

It probably looks somewhat dead given that it takes so long to create full gameplay projects, but I have a feeling there will be a sudden boom of lots of new content, just from reading this thread alone.  Not to mention people I know of who are working on other projects. With all these projects in the works, I have little doubt that DA:O will become a game to go back to again not only on it's own merit, but for all the new content yet to be added as well

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 10 juillet 2011 - 12:00 .

[indio]

There are 4 or 5 builders from here whose work/blogs I have kept track of. Challseus' is always a good read, and source of inspiration, AmstradHero's also. Proleric, Sunmjammer, Phaenan, CID have always helped without anymore less than perfect generosity and skill.

If sidefx developed an area generator like yatt, I suspect I too would finish my module.

Like Challseus I suspected this community would become akin to the original NWN communities, but no critical mass formed. I thought the move to these social forums was a big mistake and have not seen any evidence to suggest why it was justified. It's just part of it, but I never liked this horrible site...it's a simple victory of style over content.

Other reasons builders went elsewhere:
* no MP (we didn't get to solve common problems and then all join online to see the result in action)
* toolset complexity
* no support (the real issue isn't bug squishing, which would be nice, but the knowledge that BioWare actually cared about us...let's face it, we were dumped)
* lack of playable, standalone modules that developed a reputation (we never got an audience beyond the builder community...just think about the followings of the NW/2 modules)

I planned my DA module for well over a year and spent a year working on it, watching all of my plans fall apart. I developed many NWN2 mods for a PW, and I can build good modules, so while I'm prepared to wear some responsibility (ok, most) these are some of the factors behind me leaving.

[Beerfish]

Things have not progressed as hoped but to be honest BioWare has not done their part in the formula. Not in regards to the toolset or their early support of it but in regards to this social site. Featured items never change, no support or trumpeting of current projects. Only one BioWare person ever seems to be in the toolset forum.

At minimum they need to provide a contact person that can do something on this site, even if it is totally at the behest of the fans and mod makers themselves.

[DarthParametric]

Bioware don't even perform the most basic of forum moderation tasks (there are still spam/malware threads in the toolset forum after being reported more than 2 weeks ago), so expecting anything else from them would be optimistic to the point of foolishness. Origins is dead to them now with DA2 out and no doubt DA3 in development. I wouldn't be surprised if the Origins sub-forums get compacted and shunted to the legacy section in the very near future.

As to the modding community, I think whatever initial impetus it had after the release of Origins quickly dissipated due to a combination of a number of factors, including, amongst other things, the difficulty of the toolset and the lack of proper support from Bioware (both technical and otherwise). By the time everyone had really figured out how to use the toolset properly and the necessary community-derived tools had appeared and matured, it was 6-8 months after the base game release, Awakening had come and gone and a lot of people, both players and modders, had moved on.

[Beerfish]

I will say that despite things being as they are now BioWare did fully intend on having a good thriving custom content/toolset community, they did invest A LOT of time, resources and money pre game release on trying to make the toolset successful.

[DarthParametric]

I have no doubts that they did intend so early on in development, but it is very clear that their priorities and business strategy for the series (and the company as a whole) changed prior to the release of Origins with the ramp up for DA2, which Brent Knowles alluded to as directly prompting his exit (as was presumably the case with Dan Tudge before him).

[pizzapicante]

Doesnt that means that itis the task of the current community to create consiusness even in other forums or communities about our work, I mean I have played some pretty good stand-alone modules (Fragments of Ferelden_Broken City, Carrion Birds) and community content (Dark TImes, Quests and Legends), to mention some.

And a frequent complaint seems to be this site, wouldnt it be better then to have a site in which all communities could make a cipy of their posts and advances and leave this site as a technical reference site?
I mean that would make for a great reading and would help create more unity? among the community which maybe sometimes can be perceived as a little fragmented and would be easier than just pasting the mods in the nexus (of course putting them there too) where (being a great site and all), the contributors may seem anonymous most of the time?
Or something like that?

[Beerfish]

DarthParametric wrote...

I have no doubts that they did intend so early on in development, but it is very clear that their priorities and business strategy for the series (and the company as a whole) changed prior to the release of Origins with the ramp up for DA2, which Brent Knowles alluded to as directly prompting his exit (as was presumably the case with Dan Tudge before him).

I wouldn't make such an assumption about Dan Tudge leaving.

[CID-78]

Well i am back from my second break from the bioware forum since NWN was released. had one in 2003 aswell. I have been working on getting a frozen project back up.

I agree that if i had some quick 3rd party tool for terrain and texture generation i would perhaps create my own modules. I am a scripter and programmers so maybe i get around and build those tools one day.

[Proleric]

pizzapicante wrote...

Doesnt that means that itis the task of the current community to create consiusness even in other forums or communities about our work....

...wouldnt it be better then to have a site in which all communities could make a cipy of their posts...

Certainly, anything we can do for ourselves is more likely to succeed than soliciting help from Bioware.

We have resources; Bioware doesn't.

We can decide what we do, but not what Bioware does.

We have modding experience; Bioware doesn't.

Having said that, the community's time and energy is also constrained, so whatever we do needs to be very simple.

I like the idea of promoting our work more systematically, and also the suggestion of pooling our fragmented community resources somehow (setting aside the mechanics for the moment).

For that to happen, I suspect we need a truly inclusive approach, acknowledging, respecting and working around cultural differences for the common good.

[CID-78]

I doubt it's the cultural diffrences that is the issue. it's more about where they want to take an project.or idea. In a small community it's less likely to find people that want to build in the same direction. or that can keep the same pace. ie allow the time a person want to spend on certain tasks. neither member get paid so they all want to atleast have a little corner in the project that they control. instead of just taking assignment from some leader. it's a hard task to get a team motivated, and you must allways know that the project will have low priority compare to many RL issues. so it's hard if not impossible to keep deadlines.

[Proleric]

CID-78 wrote...

...they all want to atleast have a little corner in the project that they control. instead of just taking assignment from some leader...

Absolutely.

Research confirms that's a critical success factor for commercial projects, too.

I'd like to draw a distinction, though, between local projects (e.g. building a campaign) and global projects that affect the whole community (e.g. knowledge sharing).

A local project only needs buy-in from a few friends, because no one else is deeply affected by the outcome.

Global initiatives impact everyone, so it generally pays to be inclusive.

Sadly, my help is often refused (or not solicited) because of my open values - but, hey, I'm expendable.

The bigger issue IMO is that we're not seeing much outreach between the community sites, which have very different cultures.

CID-78 wrote...

...In a small community it's less likely to find people that want to build in the same direction. or that can keep the same pace... so it's hard if not impossible to keep deadlines.

Also true.

For global initiatives, though, a common direction is essential.

Unfortunately, we seem to be stuck with the forum format, which sucks as a consensus tool.

I guess that just reinforces the need to keep things very simple, around some sort of lowest common denominator approach.
  

Modifié par Proleric1, 11 juillet 2011 - 12:23 .

[CID-78]

well yeah the forum is more advanced then the old forum was but i really miss "my topics" because it's quite hard to keep track of all posts done. if the forum was more lively then they are it would become a much worse problem and it can alos be the reason why it's so slow. People don't respond as quick as they did in the old forum. subscribing to a topic doesn't seem to do anything of value.

[Shallina]

The lightmapper is really bad, and there is no Multiplayer.

Those 2 things together are clearly pinning DAO toolset on the ground.

[CID-78]

i don't think lack of MP is a big thing. SP is the biggest game market even if it's the one you see less of on the internet by nature. It was know along time before the game was realised that it would be a Sp game.

A good lightmapper on the other hand or other terrain tools would be cruisal for people that don't want to spend weeks if not months on a single area/level. I think that is why NWN1 is still the strongest toolset, it's so easy to make your game world. (and it can still look quite good). so you can focus on the part of the module you like, ie writting the story, scripting, fine tuning the visual atmosfer or whatever it might be.

NWN2 got strong because it did get the tools after a while such as YATT and Terracoppa. it also got lilacs script generator.

if we want to make the community bigger we need to make those tools, so we can also appeal to the lesser talented people.