6970 réponses à ce sujet

[Barquiel]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Excellent post, Laecraft. I think Paragons do miss out in the sense that they get a much less interesting story. There's no tension or uncertainty in a Paragon universe.

I think there is enough uncertainty in a Paragon universe (the rachni queen for example)

[Ravensword]

laecraft wrote...

*edited to stay on track*

I swear it's such a hard work to keep from off-topic.

Sure, let's not deal w/ the elephant in the room.

[Radahldo]

Whats the elephant

[Dave of Canada]

Barquiel wrote...

I think there is enough uncertainty in a Paragon universe (the rachni queen for example)

"Greetings Shepard, we'll help you when the time comes against the Reapers! We're your friends!"

[aiDvEoN]

laecraft wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Renegade and pro-Cerberus is the real man's way of playing ME not that girly-man Paragon one.

Indeed. Being a Renegade and pro-Cerberus has many advantages, however it requires real balls. If any Paragons are reading this, here are some perks:

Hackett's true nature will be revealed to you. Some Paragons still remain oblivious.

Vasir's wicked plans will be revealed to you. She's planning to blame her explosions on Cerberus. I guess when you show people your dark side, they're more willing to show you theirs.

You can experience the best romance in the series and one of the best human characters - Renegade Kaidan. Which is also one of the reasons to play Femshep.

You can tell the turian Councilor "depends on the species, turian." You know you want to.

What you did to Conrad Verner in ME1 will be canon in ME2.

You won't have to see Helena Blake become a social worker. *SHUDDER* (Please tell me that Shepard didn't really believe that story.)

You can publicly endorse Terra Firma, which is perhaps the only occasion in the game where you can use your status to publicly support any faction.

You don't have to be a total jerk to Mordin during his loyalty mission.

You won't have to play through Zaeed's Paragon path in his loyalty mission and pretend that nothing odd is happening to preserve your suspension of disbelief.

You get to sound proactive in conversations with TIM ("it was good to finally go toe to toe with the enemy"), instead of sounding like a victim and a pessimist ("I couldn't save everyone.")

You can headbutt Gatatog Uvenk. This alone should be enough to convince anyone to become Renegade.

If you're humanity first, in ME3, you will be motivated to go to the trial to save humanity from the war with the batarians. You will feel the drama when the Earth is attacked and you're forced to flee and leave humans to the Reapers. And you will be motivated to fight for the Earth, which is already very doomed. If you're not humanity-first, your stakes in ME3 are either undefined or low.

But of course, if you can't handle the tension, the pressure, and high stakes, don't be humanity first. Other species are not as concentrated on a single homeworld as humanity is, they're spread across the galaxy, it would take longer to wipe them out, and it's easier to save them when Harbinger doesn't want them for his new Reaper.

You get to fight your allies in ME3 - Cerberus - which is all very dramatic and tragic. If you don't care about Cerberus or even enjoy killing them, you're missing out on all the conflict.

Dare you walk the path of fun and drama, or do you hide in your safe blue Paragon bubble, where nothing can touch you, and the world bows to your feet because of your sheer awesomeness? And if fandom is equally divided, maybe the devs will be forced to create equal paths for both Paragon and Renegade.

Of course, if you don't have the guts to handle this, or can't trust anyone because you're too afraid of betrayal or rejection, better not be pro-Cerberus. Switch allegiances now, and break up with Cerberus before Cerberus has the chance to break up with you. Pro-Cerberus path does require real courage, not everybody has that.

1. Then they're idiots.  His LotSB dossier and his actions in The Arrival indicate that he's either got contacts or outright affiliation with Cerberus.  He's covering your tracks when as an Alliance Admiral he shouldn't be, and actively tracks down and visits a Cerberus frigate.

2. Again, blindingly obvious when she's throwing your 'terrorist' affiliation around in her general dialogue.

3.  Ok, that sounds interesting, didn't know that one.  Does he actually get a personality?

4.  Or you can tell him "three, no wait, four!"

5. BUT ITS HILLARIOUS THIS WAY!

6. No argument, it was stupid.  She does that if you intimidate option her too though.

7. No argument again, I file it next to the inability to sympathise with the quarians shutting down the Geth.

8. So the myopic speciest douchebag can side with more myopic speciest douches?  If you really wanna...

9. I don't see an issue; he drew you there under false pretense, and you're the one holding his contract.  Zaeed is nothing if not professional.

10. No morality is awarded for most of those dialogues, and a few renegade points don't magically disintegrate paragon points anyway.

11. There's an option not to press it?  Its awesome!  Again, see 10.

12. I don't follow your logic here.  The Paragon who wants to save everyone isn't going to have the same feelings there?  They aren't going to experience the tension and feel the loss with every person and every world they have to abandon in the name of possible future victory, if not more so than the Renegades who don't care about a bunch of filthy xenos?

As for Cerberus and them having been an ally, spare me.  Cerberus are an enemy.  Cerberus have always been an enemy; the enemy of another enemy is nothing more than my enemy's enemy.  And Cerberus will always be an enemy until every last trace of that vile organisation is crushed and purged from the galaxy.

[aiDvEoN]

Saphra Deden wrote...

aiDvEoN wrote...

1. Then they're idiots.  His LotSB dossier and his actions in The Arrival indicate that he's either got contacts or outright affiliation with Cerberus.  He's covering your tracks when as an Alliance Admiral he shouldn't be, and actively tracks down and visits a Cerberus frigate.

I would say the Renegade exclusive mission in ME1 is far more telling of Hackett and perhaps the Alliance as a whole.

aiDvEoN wrote...

As for Cerberus and them having been an ally, spare me.  Cerberus are an enemy.  Cerberus have always been an enemy; the enemy of another enemy is nothing more than my enemy's enemy.  And Cerberus will always be an enemy until every last trace of that vile organisation is crushed and purged from the galaxy.

That's just ridiculous. Cerberus was an antagonist in ME1, but hardly an overt enemy. They never even bothered you: you were in the instigator of hostilities with them.  In ME2 they were most certainly an ally. Enemies do not save your life, or give you a ship, a crew, give you money, give you intel, and find OTHER allies for you.

You understand, allies are not always people you LIKE. All an ally is-is somebody you have congruent goals with whom you have agreed to cooperate for mutual benefit. That's what Cerberus is in ME2.

I'm not denying that the special mission in ME1 wasn't revelatory, I'm just saying that anyone who hasn't picked up that Hackett is FAR from squeaky clean, regardless of their preferred morality is a blooming idiot.

As for Cerberus, aren't you the one who argues that Shepard was simply a tool for them?  And husking a colony to see the results and killing an Alliance admiral ranks someone as 'enemy' pretty damn firmly in my book.  Teltin, Bithu, Nepheron and the Idenna are just the icing on the cake for solidifying that status.

[Ravensword]

Saphra Deden wrote...

In ME2 they were most certainly an  ally. Enemies do not save your life, or give you a ship, a crew, give  you money, give you intel, and find OTHER allies for you.

The only reason why Shepard was working for Cerberus was b/c , other  than being canon, they were the only other organization w/ the necessary resources who were actually trying do something about the disappearing
colonies and the Reapers. TIM was simply using Shepard. He wasn't trying to be friends w/ him or anything.

Saphra Deden wrote...

You understand, allies are not always people you LIKE. All an ally is-is  somebody you have congruent goals with whom you have agreed to cooperate for mutual benefit. That's what Cerberus is in ME2.

Well just like history, and ME3 soon will prove, today's allies are  tomorrow's enemies. Regardless, it's simply wishful thinking that you'd  still want to be allies w/ Cerberus in ME3. Does it bother you that  you'll be fighting Cerberus in ME3? Did you really not see that coming?

Modifié par Ravensword, 27 octobre 2011 - 12:06 .

[Ravensword]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Does it bother me? Somewhat. Originally I thought Cerberus helping the Reapers made no sense. However I understand why they might (since I might). So that sense it bothers me that I'm fighting them because it means I am following a protagonist I can't root for. I don't want to see Shepard succeed against Cerberus. He's an unthinking, shallow moron.

If I am to understand you correctly, are you saying that you might be inclined to fight for Cerberus which, by extension, could mean that you are fighting for the Reapers as well and that it's your opinion that Shepard is a shallow moron?

[Ravensword]

So the crux of the issue w/ Cerberus being allies has to do w/ you perceiving Shepard to be a moron then?

[Ravensword]

Is there anything else?

[General User]

I say Cerberus (or at least one of their cells) instigated hostilities in ME1 when they planted the false distress beacon on Edolus.

Sure that was never meant for Shepard, but that isn't the point. They threw sowed the wind, they deserved to reap the whirlwind.

[General User]

Investigating the deaths of personnel under their command IS where a military officer's nose belongs.

[Ravensword]

Context?

[Ravensword]

It was a coincidence.

[General User]

Saphra Deden wrote...

No, not when their superiors tell them otherwise. It is especially not his right to go to a third party and make a deal to share Alliance secrets with them.

That's not always true. In Western militaries at least, strict and absolute obedience and loyalty to one's superiors is not expected, in fact it's discouraged.

In other words, if Kahoku's superiors did order him to cease his investigation (did they do that... or did they just stonewall him?  there's a difference), that was probably an illegal order.

And Shepard is a third party within the Alliance special ops community. Not an official avenue of redress granted, but still a legitimate person to turn to, especially if other avenues are closed.

Modifié par General User, 27 octobre 2011 - 12:58 .

[Xilizhra]

[quote]Hackett's true nature will be revealed to you. Some Paragons still remain oblivious.[/quote]
It's not that hard to figure out he's the sort of person who'd employ assassins.

[quote]Vasir's wicked plans will be revealed to you. She's planning to blame her explosions on Cerberus. I guess when you show people your dark side, they're more willing to show you theirs.[/quote]
Because that's... more wicked than bombing the Dracon Trade Center in the first place? Honestly, I don't think I'd even interfere unless I thought it was going to prove problematic otherwise.

[quote]You can experience the best romance in the series and one of the best human characters - Renegade Kaidan. Which is also one of the reasons to play Femshep.[/quote]
I don't like men, so **** that.

[quote]You can tell the turian Councilor "depends on the species, turian." You know you want to.[/quote]
No, honestly I don't. In fact, the very thought of saying it makes me feel disgusted.

[quote]You won't have to see Helena Blake become a social worker. *SHUDDER* (Please tell me that Shepard didn't really believe that story.)[/quote]
Why do you care?

[quote]You can publicly endorse Terra Firma, which is perhaps the only occasion in the game where you can use your status to publicly support any faction.[/quote]
I'm not going to pollute my status with that?

[quote]You don't have to be a total jerk to Mordin during his loyalty mission.[/quote]
I'm not anyway.

[quote]You won't have to play through Zaeed's Paragon path in his loyalty mission and pretend that nothing odd is happening to preserve your suspension of disbelief.[/quote]
Nothing odd is happening. If you don't believe Zaeed can get past screwing up his own chance to get Vido without blaming it on Shepard, you have far less respect for him than I.

[quote]You get to sound proactive in conversations with TIM ("it was good to finally go toe to toe with the enemy"), instead of sounding like a victim and a pessimist ("I couldn't save everyone.")[/quote]
Clearly "pro-humanity" doesn't include actually caring about any humans. Congratulations, you've adapted the Cerberus ethos rather well.

[quote]You can headbutt Gatatog Uvenk. This alone should be enough to convince anyone to become Renegade.[/quote]
Really? One interrupt is enough to actually make you Renegade?

[quote]If you're humanity first, in ME3, you will be motivated to go to the trial to save humanity from the war with the batarians. You will feel the drama when the Earth is attacked and you're forced to flee and leave humans to the Reapers. And you will be motivated to fight for the Earth, which is already very doomed. If you're not humanity-first, your stakes in ME3 are either undefined or low.[/quote]
Actually, it's the Paragon decision to go to the trial willingly; the Renegade will **** about it for a while beforehand.

[quote]But of course, if you can't handle the tension, the pressure, and high stakes, don't be humanity first. Other species are not as concentrated on a single homeworld as humanity is, they're spread across the galaxy, it would take longer to wipe them out, and it's easier to save them when Harbinger doesn't want them for his new Reaper.[/quote]
I will, in fact, save Earth. I just have to leave it for a while because fighting them on Earth without any resources is bloody stupid.

[quote]You get to fight your allies in ME3 - Cerberus - which is all very dramatic and tragic. If you don't care about Cerberus or even enjoy killing them, you're missing out on all the conflict.[/quote]
Ah, so now you enjoy getting to fight Cerberus? Good, we're on the same side about something.

[quote]Dare you walk the path of fun and drama, or do you hide in your safe blue Paragon bubble, where nothing can touch you, and the world bows to your feet because of your sheer awesomeness? And if fandom is equally divided, maybe the devs will be forced to create equal paths for both Paragon and Renegade.[/quote]
I already do walk the path of fun and drama, and for me, that's not speciesist douchebaggery.