6970 réponses à ce sujet

[Ravensword]

Saphra Deden wrote...

General User wrote...

That's not always true. In Western militaries at least, strict and absolute obedience and loyalty to one's superiors is not expected, in fact it's discouraged.

Oh really? What ****ing planet do you live on?

What?

[General User]

Saphra Deden wrote...

General User wrote...

That's
not always true. In Western militaries at least, strict and absolute
obedience and loyalty to one's superiors is not expected, in fact it's
discouraged.

Oh really? What ****ing planet do you live on?

A question I ask myself everyday.

I mean, it looks like Earth... it smells like Earth... but it's full of crazy people!

Modifié par General User, 27 octobre 2011 - 01:01 .

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

Cerberus is a reason. And now they're trying to make up for that, apparently.

Everything Shepard does in ME2 & onward is a result of Cerberus' actions. >_>

[aiDvEoN]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Does it bother me? Somewhat. Originally I thought Cerberus helping the Reapers made no sense. However I understand why they might (since I might). So that sense it bothers me that I'm fighting them because it means I am following a protagonist I can't root for. I don't want to see Shepard succeed against Cerberus. He's an unthinking, shallow moron.

I really, really don't understand this. I know you're of the opinion that we can't win against the Reapers, but what is to be lost by fighting.  There is nothing to be lost by fighting, and there may even be a 1 in a trillion chance that we can win and avoid being turned into a biomass smoothie.

[Sebby]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

I think there is enough uncertainty in a Paragon universe (the rachni queen for example)

"Greetings Shepard, we'll help you when the time comes against the Reapers! We're your friends!"

No negative repercussions from the council or krogan either.

"Many decisions lie ahead,none of them easy"  Mhm, sure thing Bioware.

[Dean_the_Young]

Saphra Deden wrote...

General User wrote...

That's not always true. In Western militaries at least, strict and absolute obedience and loyalty to one's superiors is not expected, in fact it's discouraged.

Oh really? What ****ing planet do you live on?

I don't know what planet, but that's pretty 'America' military thinking.

They aren't the Russians, thankfully. American military officership stresses individual responsibility at all levels in the command sequence: you are to be aware when what is required of you isn't legal or correct, and to act accordingly. 'Obedience' only applies in the scope of duty and the law, but that scope is limited by, again, the law.

And even then, 'obedience' isn't how the US military operates. The US military is exceptional for being NCO-driven, not officer driven: the officer leads the group, but the sergeants lead the men. The US military style isn't top-down planning: instead, it's generally objective driven. Rather than 'you will do this', it goes 'you will achieve this and have this done by then' and then leaves it to that subordinate unit to determine the how, with each subordinate group defining it narrower and narrower as needed.

Decentralized leadership, rather than centralized planning. The officers give the orders, but the closer you get to the men the more often it is that the Sergeants have more experience and real leadership role on the ground than the officers.

A military runs on discipline, but it is neither absolute nor is it dependent on 'obedience' to the next rank above.

[Sebby]

Saphra Deden wrote...

aiDvEoN wrote...

1. Then they're idiots.  His LotSB dossier and his actions in The Arrival indicate that he's either got contacts or outright affiliation with Cerberus.  He's covering your tracks when as an Alliance Admiral he shouldn't be, and actively tracks down and visits a Cerberus frigate.

I would say the Renegade exclusive mission in ME1 is far more telling of Hackett and perhaps the Alliance as a whole.

aiDvEoN wrote...

As for Cerberus and them having been an ally, spare me.  Cerberus are an enemy.  Cerberus have always been an enemy; the enemy of another enemy is nothing more than my enemy's enemy.  And Cerberus will always be an enemy until every last trace of that vile organisation is crushed and purged from the galaxy.

That's just ridiculous. Cerberus was an antagonist in ME1, but hardly an overt enemy. They never even bothered you: you were in the instigator of hostilities with them.  In ME2 they were most certainly an ally. Enemies do not save your life, or give you a ship, a crew, give you money, give you intel, and find OTHER allies for you.

You understand, allies are not always people you LIKE. All an ally is-is somebody you have congruent goals with whom you have agreed to cooperate for mutual benefit. That's what Cerberus is in ME2.

Cerberus wasn't even a mandatory enemy. Shepard could go through the game without even hearing about them let alone fighting them.

[Xilizhra]

Seboist wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

I think there is enough uncertainty in a Paragon universe (the rachni queen for example)

"Greetings Shepard, we'll help you when the time comes against the Reapers! We're your friends!"

No negative repercussions from the council or krogan either.

"Many decisions lie ahead,none of them easy"  Mhm, sure thing Bioware.

They're still tough in-universe.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Xilizhra wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

I think there is enough uncertainty in a Paragon universe (the rachni queen for example)

"Greetings Shepard, we'll help you when the time comes against the Reapers! We're your friends!"

No negative repercussions from the council or krogan either.

"Many decisions lie ahead,none of them easy"  Mhm, sure thing Bioware.

They're still tough in-universe.

The choices from the Gears trilogy are much tougher, and those don't amount to much more than "press LT or RT to take path A or B".

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 27 octobre 2011 - 06:49 .

[Xilizhra]

The choices from the Gears trilogy are much tougher, and those don't amount to much more than "press LT or RT to take path A or B".

I advise you to find greater immersion.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

I think there is enough uncertainty in a Paragon universe (the rachni queen for example)

"Greetings Shepard, we'll help you when the time comes against the Reapers! We're your friends!"

No negative repercussions from the council or krogan either.

"Many decisions lie ahead,none of them easy"  Mhm, sure thing Bioware.

They're still tough in-universe.

Maybe. But I would think they meant it from a player perspective the most.

[Sebby]

Choosing between the fairy tale hero path with the best outcomes and most content vs the gimped troll one where everything proves pointless and blows up in Shepard's face isn't a tough decision.

There's no point in playing Renegade other than for the lulz or because you're a glutton for punishment.

[Xilizhra]

Seboist wrote...

Choosing between the fairy tale hero path with the best outcomes and most content vs the gimped troll one where everything proves pointless and blows up in Shepard's face isn't a tough decision.

There's no point in playing Renegade other than for the lulz or because you're a glutton for punishment.

Given the large amount of Renegade advocates, including everyone in this thread, it would appear that that's a large market. EIther that or they're getting something out of it you aren't, for whatever reason.

[SandTrout]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

They aren't the Russians, thankfully. American military officership stresses individual responsibility at all levels in the command sequence: you are to be aware when what is required of you isn't legal or correct, and to act accordingly. 'Obedience' only applies in the scope of duty and the law, but that scope is limited by, again, the law.

You and your laws and ethics.

You and your ignorance of military culture.

American soldiers, sailors, Marines, and airmen are specifically trained to disobey illegal orders.

[General User]

Saphra Deden wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

You and your ignorance of military culture.

Spare me. Dean is just towing the line. We're talking about the American government here. Not the most honest group out there. I believe Dean believes what he says and I know that's what the military likes to broadcast, but it's not how they operate. History has proven that time and time again.

If you really don't believe us, I've found a website for an organization that can help.  Go in with an open mind and just four years later...

[Xilizhra]

You know that song Passive? I think it works better for TIM, toward a Paragon Shepard.

[Ashwraith]

Mm, it sort of works both ways, depending on whether you're going with the whole song, or stanza by stanza. But I hear what you're saying.
It could also work for the Mass Effect 2 storyline in general (the perspective of the Collectors/their puppetmaster, maybe?)

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

Given the large amount of Renegade advocates, including everyone in this thread, it would appear that that's a large market. EIther that or they're getting something out of it you aren't, for whatever reason.

A small group opposing a large group stands out.

[Xilizhra]

[quote]Speculation is one thing, it's another thing to see this for yourself.[/quote]Eh, not that much different.

[quote]Because that gives you an insight into how the Council operates, and how Cerberus are the ones who end up with the bad reputation.[/quote]
Even Jacob calls them terrorists. I don't think they've been framed a statistically significant number of times, and definitely the Shadow Broker's list of operations will be accurate, which are easily enough to give them the label.

[quote]Well, there's an audience for that. I've seen many Paragons wanting a comeback to the turian Councilor...badly enough that they want to see the Reapers arrive just for that.[/quote]
I don't plan on doing that either. The fact that someone has been a dick to me doesn't entitle me to be a dick back.

[quote]Why do I care about anything in the game? It pains me when I see a character's core values violated.[/quote]
Some peoples' core values suck.

[quote]If nothing's odd is happening, then all the better for you. I'm sure your suspension of disbelief will survive hugging Harbinger.[/quote]
Odd. I thought you'd take pride in Zaeed being mature enough to swallow his grudge long enough to work well together with Shepard, perhaps considering him more mature than Tali. Oh well.

[quote]Clearly pro-galaxy behavior doesn't include actually wanting to save the galaxy, as Paragon Shepard is constantly complaining about being used, being risked, and being bait in conversations with TIM. It's all about Shepard and his friends and his repuation, it's never about saving humanity. Congratulations, you're a true Council acolyte.[/quote]
My responses there aren't always upper-right. They can get a tad on the repetitive side.

[quote]This is crucial! Actually, I should've put this first. You see, gaming is not all about philosophic issues. Occasionally it involved just having .... FUN.[/quote]
Well, I tend to do it myself. I find much about krogan culture distasteful, but I may as well do what I can to win their allegiance.

[quote]You missed the part where I was speaking about doing it because you care about humanity that much that you're willing to let them sacrifice you.[/quote]
Well, quite frankly I don't want to live in a universe where you can just blow up a star system without being called to account for it. The timing's bad, but I'll do my best.

[quote]You missed the part where I was speaking about being tormented to make this rational decision. Emotions. You know, that thing that makes stories interesting and engaging?[/quote]
I will. It sucks. I hate the fact that I can't save everyone... which, bizarrely, you actually attacked me for showing emotions to that extent regarding Horizon.

[quote]I can't believe I have to explain such basic things, hopefully you're just being obtuse on purpose.[/quote]
Yes.

[quote]*shudder* Look what you've done, what a nightmare I dreamt up. Your asari assimilation dystopia is one of the most chilling ones I've ever encountered. *hurriedly forgets it like a bad dream*[/quote]
Good, because your interpretation is terrible. There's always something to compete with, even if it's not each other: old age. Disease. Disastrous cosmic phenomena. Heat death. Entropy itself.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 27 octobre 2011 - 11:43 .

[Xilizhra]

laecraft wrote...

Ashwraith wrote...

Mm, it sort of works both ways, depending on whether you're going with the whole song, or stanza by stanza. But I hear what you're saying.
It could also work for the Mass Effect 2 storyline in general (the perspective of the Collectors/their puppetmaster, maybe?)

This amazing song would work for both parties, but I always imagined it as coming from the adversary, addressed to the dead hero.

I am also pretty sure that TIM expects Shepard to survive everything he throws at Shepard. Perhaps that's a part of his plan. *desperately hopes for a gambit* TIM is anything but straightforward. Surely he's plotting something. He always does.

There's a lot of imagery there that applies to the Lazarus Project before Shepard awakens, certainly.
And he's plotting something, which seems to involve using a new Overlord to take control of some geth to serve as Reaper minions...

[iloveTali81]

laecraft wrote...

Ashwraith wrote...

Mm, it sort of works both ways, depending on whether you're going with the whole song, or stanza by stanza. But I hear what you're saying.
It could also work for the Mass Effect 2 storyline in general (the perspective of the Collectors/their puppetmaster, maybe?)

This amazing song would work for both parties, but I always imagined it as coming from the adversary, addressed to the dead hero.

I am also pretty sure that TIM expects Shepard to survive everything he throws at Shepard. Perhaps that's a part of his plan. *desperately hopes for a gambit* TIM is anything but straightforward. Surely he's plotting something. He always does.

                         
there is no great plan just the same old story of indoctrination. not much of RPG if your only dialogue is basically I love Alliance