6970 réponses à ce sujet

[Sebby]

Xilizhra wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Liara with her child-like personality and stalkerish tendencies don't appeal to me. That and I find her character in general to be unremarkable, even less so than Jacob.

By far the only squadmate I'd like to execute.

Good. Having you romance her would just be creepy and painful.

Indeed it would be, my Shepards would be worried about her going all Fatal Attraction or John Hinckley on her/him.

Modifié par Seboist, 28 octobre 2011 - 09:48 .

[Xilizhra]

Really? I didn't think any attraction could be more fatal than your paramour sending a whole army to kill you.

[Sebby]

liesandpropaganda wrote...

I think TIM romance would be rather hilarious. During ME2 i always imagine femshep and him bickering like an old married couple, where she demands that he bought her a fur coat a new gun and he accuses her of spending too much on ship upgrades.

[Sebby]

I don't know, TIM seems to like pampering femshep. He bought her a bigger, better and more luxurious ship and a faster car.

[Radahldo]

Wealthy fascists usually shower their kids and wives (and mistresses) in good stuff. Its only natural TIM would do the same.

[Sebby]

TIM isn't a fascist. He's a humanitarian looking out for human rights.

[Radahldo]

Laughable word selection. Does the game ever use 'humanitarian' to describe him or is it just something you all started doing? I don't remember his codex entry or Mirandas intitial speech.

Modifié par Radahldo, 28 octobre 2011 - 11:45 .

[Sebby]

Not in those exact words but Miranda describes him as an advocate for humanity.

[Radahldo]

To me--and im not trying to be a troll-- it seems he's just fascist politics in a setting that replaces other nations with different species; expands nationalism into speciesism
When I think of 'humanitarian' I think of, I guess, writers like Turgenev, Kropotkin and various other figures who'd privilege life over war and expansion.

I think, in the interest of a greater clarity of your arguments, it'd be better to find different terms than humanitarian and human rights cause what cerberus is concerned with is obviously not what those terms mean.

[General User]

Radahldo wrote...

Wealthy fascists usually shower their kids and wives (and mistresses) in good stuff. Its only natural TIM would do the same.

In a lot of ways fascists and fascism are two of the most poorly defined words in the English language, their use should be avoided in casual conversation.  Jonah Goldberg put it best by defining 'fascist' as "a modern word for 'heretic,' branding an individual worthy of excommunication from the body politic."

One of the hallmarks of the fascist is an authoritarian style of leadership, and that's something that's just not a part of TIM's character.  He's most assuredly the man in charge of Cerberus, and any limits on his authority can only be described as self-imposed, but he also welcomes and even solicits input from his subordinates and leaves day to day matters in their hands.  He's an autocrat.

And yes...
Wealthy autocrats usually shower their kids and wives (and mistresses) in good stuff.
...also...
Wealthy capitalists usually shower their kids and wives (and mistresses) in good stuff.
...also...
Wealthy democrats usually shower their kids and wives (and mistresses) in good stuff.
...also...
Wealthy socialists usually shower their kids and wives (and mistresses) in good stuff.
...also...
Wealthy indigenous peoples usually shower their kids and wives (and mistresses) in good stuff.
...etc., etc., ad nauseum.

Giving gifts to those one cares about and/or wants something from is something humans do.  In any society, those that have the means to do so, will.

Modifié par General User, 29 octobre 2011 - 12:02 .

[Radahldo]

In a lot of ways fascists and fascism are two of the most poorly defined words in the English language, their use should be avoided in casual conversation. Jonah Goldberg put it best by defining 'fascist' as "a modern word for 'heretic,' branding an individual worthy of excommunication from the body politic."

One of the games recurring themes is human domination, aliens being leery, etc; thats just repacked language that would normally describe aggressive, culture absorbing fascism (democracy and commuism also have that potential, but thats not my point here)

I would say though that Cerberus' goals and politics aren't exactly clear; the conditions of Earth and exact politics of the setting in general are murky; and, what exactly 'human rights' as mass effect uses it, while obviously not relating to our current definition of human rights, also isnt clear... you can fannon all that however you want, but, in regards to the narrative, what Cerberus represents in the story is fascism and negative race politics expanded to speciesism. That is the button they are pressing.

The fact that you're fighting Cerberus in me3 also points to the game not having a deeper politcal arc for them so i'm comfortable even applying the colloquial use of fascist

One of the hallmarks of the fascist is an authoritarian style of leadership, and that's something that's just not a part of TIM's character. He's most assuredly the man in charge of Cerberus, and any limits on his authority can only be described as 'self-imposed', but he also welcomes and even solicits input from his subordinates. He's an autocrat.

Well, autorcats are also pretty bad, arent they? haha.. If you shirk from the term fascist why not autorcrat? Cause of (in ideal circumstances) its efficacy in governing? I don't understand your point here

Modifié par Radahldo, 29 octobre 2011 - 12:16 .

[Sebby]

ME's world is all about race and domination. The council is all about enforcing a racial caste system that ensures Asari,Turian and Salarian dominance over the rest of the galaxy.

Singling out Cerberus for promoting dominance is ridiculous.

[Xilizhra]

Seboist wrote...

ME's world is all about race and domination. The council is all about enforcing a racial caste system that ensures Asari,Turian and Salarian dominance over the rest of the galaxy.

Singling out Cerberus for promoting dominance is ridiculous.

Well, destroying the Council would be impossible; even transferring sole dominance to humans doesn't help any. Cerberus, on the other hand, can be destroyed, and so I will do so. And then hopefully gain some political clout to reform the Council.

[General User]

Radahldo wrote...
One of the games recurring themes is human domination, aliens being leery, etc; thats just repacked language that would normally describe aggressive, culture absorbing fascism (democracy and commuism also have that potential, but thats not my point here)

Well... then the obvious question is that if the themes of Mass effect can be applied to any number of human political systems (one might almost say they are themes that transcend politics and are instead part of human nature), why pick that one?

Rhetorical question.

Radahldo wrote...
I would say though that Cerberus' goals and politics aren't exactly clear; the conditions of Earth and exact politics of the setting in general are murky; and, what exactly 'human rights' as mass effect uses it, while obviously not relating to our current definition of human rights, also isnt clear... you can fannon all that however you want, but, in regards to the narrative, what Cerberus represents in the story is fascism and race politics expanded to be speciesist. That is the button they are pressing.

There's one thing we know about politics in Mass Effect: under the Citadel Council system, one's level of participation in politics and to a large extent one's lot in life is determined by one's species.

Radahldo wrote...
The fact that you're fighting Cerberus in me3 also points to the game not having a deeper politcal arc for them so i'm comfortable even applying the colloquial use of fascist

  I wish you happines in your comfort.  I, however, remain perplexed.

Radahldo wrote...
Well, autorcats are also pretty bad, arent they? haha.. If you shirk from the term fascist why autorcrat? Cause of (in ideal circumstances) its efficacy in governing? I don't understand your point here

  They are and they aren't, depends on perspective.  I shirk from 'fascist' because it is so ill-defined.  I'm not making a value judgement here, my only interest is accurately describing the character.

Modifié par General User, 29 octobre 2011 - 12:41 .

[Radahldo]

Singling out Cerberus for promoting dominance is ridiculous.

I'm mostly just bothered by the use of the word humanitarian i've seen in this and the miranda thread for a year now. That simply isnt what that term means.

And still speciesism even if it occurs in unfair environment-- that just renders it reactionary sort. I think thats all Cerberus is: reactionary militarized speciesism which, whenever the table turn, won't result in something better than the council.

I'm not singling them out, also (not that I feel you were directly accusing me of that)
I personally have an issue with council. The faults of it have been elaborated on here by all of you so we all understand what they are, but, even with all that though I don't understand why you'd all throw your Shepards behind Cerberus.

edit:

Well... then the obvious question is that if the themes of Mass effect can be applied to any number of human political systems (one might almost say they are themes that transcend politics and are instead part of human nature), why pick that one?

For shorthand,  I suppose? Other terms are harder to use without alluding torecent international politics and i'm sure that would've went over well.
Fascist, while I do, to an extent, think thats an accurate name for Cerberus as much as we know about them.. its also not likely to stir an emotional reaction beyond offennse for misrepresenting Ceberus' policy.

There's one thing we know about politics in Mass Effect: under the Citadel Council system, one's level of participation in politics and to a large extent one's lot in life is determined by one's species.

I agree. A speciesist environment does not preclude an organization, especially one representing a new, feared/loathed member of the galactic society,  from being described as terrorist and speciesist, though.  The term 'terrorist' like fascism is usually misleading and simplification  but thats how the cards fall. 

  They are and they aren't, depends on perspective.  I shirk from
'fascist' because it is so ill-defined.  I'm not making a value
judgement here, my only interest is accurately describing the character.

I understand.

Modifié par Radahldo, 29 octobre 2011 - 12:54 .

[General User]

Radahldo wrote...
For shorthand,  I suppose? Other terms are harder to use without alluding torecent international politics and i'm sure that would've went over well.

You might be surprised, man.  TIM's thread is full of... diverse interests.

Radahldo wrote...
Fascist, while I do, to an extent, think thats an accurate name for Cerberus as much as we know about them.. its also not likely to stir an emotional reaction beyond offennse for misrepresenting Ceberus' policy.

  'Fascist' is one of the most emotionally loaded terms in human political discourse!  The fact that it is so loaded makes seriously exploring issues around it very difficult, and even makes discussing other issues equally difficult once it has been used inappropriately.

Radahldo wrote...

I agree. A speciest environment does not preclude an organization, especially one representing a new, feared/loathed member of the galactic society,  from being described as terrorist and speciest, though.  The
term 'terrorist' like fascism is usually misleading and simplification  but thats how the cards fall.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but if those terms are misleading and simplistic, then maybe you shouldn't use them lightly, if at all.

Modifié par General User, 29 octobre 2011 - 01:00 .

[Xilizhra]

So, you're just looking to destroy something?

No wonder you and TIM are on the opposite sides. TIM is working to save humanity, not to destroy something.

I'm working to save the galaxy, including humanity. TIM is working to fellate the Reapers or something.

TIM saves human lives, while the Council and the Alliance step quietly aside. And he gets called a lot of bad names for it, but history will vindicate us. Everybody judges the crimes of action, but nobody cares about crimes of inaction - such is human nature. Ungrateful humans condemn and want to kill those who just saved their lives...typical Alliance attitude.

History will remember Cerberus as scum that was lucky enough to be more knowledgeable about the Reapers than others for one brief period of time, that gave it an important role. If at all. I intend to bury it permanently, that this cancer may be purged from humanity to ensure that all will see a brighter future.

[Radahldo]

'Fascist' is one of the most emotionally loaded terms in human political discourse! The fact that it is so loaded makes seriously exploring issues around it very difficult, and even makes discussing other issues equally difficult once it has been used inappropriately.

I understand its loaded; I wouldnt, like, argue about ___insert real politician here___ and go "Fascist! Fascist! Fascist!!" but I thought it'd be more acceptable here. Especially since its a said a lot. I don't mean to straw man or anything.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but if those terms are misleading and simplistic, then maybe you shouldn't use them lightly, if at all.

For fascist, yes, as I said above.
But they are referred to as terrorists aren't they? And theres the whole thing with Skye Turnick... in rp sense, that label is practically tattooed upon Cerberus.

I think its realistic for them to be perceived as terrorists with shepard also being seen as such by association. Unless an alien takes very rational viewpoint ( like Mordin for example) thats what Cerberus is, especially in Council controlled media, irregardless of how much sense their politics make in opposition to Council.

Modifié par Radahldo, 29 octobre 2011 - 01:22 .

[Xilizhra]

Why don't you do that BEFORE they resurrect your Shepard.

I can't go back in time.