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They'll be plenty of spoils to go around when the human led coalition lays down a can of whoopass on the Reapers and Asari/Turians/Salarians. We'll be be carving out pieces of the galaxy like a birthday cake and giving it to our comrades in arms.
Brotherhood of Cerberus - The Illusive Man Discussion/Support Thread
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Lambda Faction
, juil. 09 2011 10:26
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#3202
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Posté 29 octobre 2011 - 06:18
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Radahldo wrote...
some people believe you could largely improve the quality of life of those in poverty by certain changes in practice... but thats not realistic thinking is it? Its just just 'entropy' ; but, you can reverse the krogans situations--something thats been going on for hundreds of years-- with a simple decision? That doesnt make sense
It's going to happen in ME3. My best explanation: the conditions have changed. The Reapers are threatening the galaxy with total extinction. Now the ruling species have to decide to alter their previous decisions. Salarians would be willing to surrender the cure for genophage - and more importantly, they would be willing not to deploy a genophage again. Turians would be willing to make alliance with the krogan.
All of that, because they need more soldiers against the Reapers. That's my best guess. The galaxy uniting in the face of the common threat.
Also, you have to consider that Wrex has been working on uniting his people, and by the time of invasion, he must have reached some results. There's many a parameter shift.
And I cannot help but being amazed that you're worrying about poverty when the galaxy is being liquified. You need to solve the most crucial, major problems first. Like surviving the Reapers. Get your priorities straight. Survival comes first.
And no, I don't believe you can totally get rid of entropy. If not poverty, there will be some other social problems. Maybe some new, something we've never heard of before. But at least the species would survive and maybe even thrive.
Modifié par laecraft, 29 octobre 2011 - 06:21 .
#3203
Posté 29 octobre 2011 - 06:28
Radahldo
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I'm not worried about poverty. I'm just saying that if our planet is still messed up a positive reversal of fortunes for council space is not assured and is, infact, unlikely if 'humanity' in the way you guys are imagining gains a lot more power.
Moreover I don't see how humanity gaining power even leads to all those things Seboist listed being considered.
Moreover I don't see how humanity gaining power even leads to all those things Seboist listed being considered.
#3204
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Posté 29 octobre 2011 - 06:31
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Seboist wrote...
They'll be plenty of spoils to go around when the human led coalition lays down a can of whoopass on the Reapers and Asari/Turians/Salarians. We'll be be carving out pieces of the galaxy like a birthday cake and giving it to our comrades in arms.
Yes, exactly. Many opportunities in the chaos of galactic war. Like iOnlySignIn pointed out, humans thrive on chaos. Embrace the chaos, see it shake the stale world, see what emerges out of it. Something better than before...or at least something new.
The world as we know it is coming to an end. Do not resist the change, even if it hurts. You were a caterpillar, now you're becoming a butterfly! Witness the Arrival. Humanity is ready for the ultimate test. If you want to live, follow us.
Or at least, Cerberus is ready.
Modifié par laecraft, 29 octobre 2011 - 06:32 .
#3205
Posté 29 octobre 2011 - 06:31
Dave of Canada
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#3206
Posté 29 octobre 2011 - 06:38
Sebby
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Dave of Canada wrote...
I've covered the Councils briefly before.
I posted a message on there so that means it's worth reading.
#3207
Posté 29 octobre 2011 - 06:59
Blacklash93
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laecraft wrote...
You say it as if it's a bad thing. Helping other species isn't some kind of charity cause. We need them, and they need us. We can mutually benefit from this alliance. Both of us will become more powerful as a result.
It IS a bad thing. Unless you're going to defend vices that have caused endless woes for thousands of years now.
And can you say that with 100% certainty? I don't think so.Not THAT kind of mistake as letting the galaxy being wiped out, no.
I blame the writers for all this delusion. Or rather, delusion when you'd consider things from a realistic standpoint. They've painted all alien races as complacent one-trick ponies while humanity is a proactive paragon of excellence and diversity in pretty much every field. It kind of sickens me how the writers percieve that in this vast galaxy, humanity isn far and away the best species you'll find. Frankly, the belief that humans have the highest and most sophisticated form of civilization in such a huge area, despite that we still can't get our act togther and fall into the same failings even after thousands of years, seems pretty arrogant to me.
#3208
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Posté 29 octobre 2011 - 07:01
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Radahldo wrote...
I'm not worried about poverty. I'm just saying that if our planet is still messed up a positive reversal of fortunes for council space is not assured and is, infact, unlikely if 'humanity' in the way you guys are imagining gains a lot more power.
Moreover I don't see how humanity gaining power even leads to all those things Seboist listed being considered.
Prepare yourself to ME3. Shepard is going to be doing many impossible things. In the chaos of galactic war, many previously impossible things will become possible. The krogan are definitely going to become cured and integrated safely into galactic society, and the quarians are definitely going to be getting back their homeworld, and Shepard is going to be instrumental in all of that happening.
If your suspension of disbelief cannot handle that, it's understandable, but I suggest you wait and see if the writers can pull it off in a believable manner.
But how would Shepard be even able to make such decisions that alter millions of lives? Well, obviously, the alien species are going to give him some kind of degree of power over their future. We're told that Shepard's not a general, but an inspiration. But for him to make a difference, the species would actually have to listen to him and trust his choices on the battlefield, like it happened at the end of ME1 with DA.
In effect, Shepard's going to be a human War Councilor. He'll be given some power, and with that power, he will alter the lives of all the species and of the galaxy drastically for the better, changing the tide of the war into our favour. That's a given.
So here you go, this is how humanity is going to accomplish those things if they gain more power. The only difference, the power is not given freely during the time of peace, but it will be given freely during the time of war by the species desperate for salvation to anyone who offers a hand.
And then, when their problems are solved, it would be a mistake to take that power away from humanity. The Reapers are not necessary going to be destroyed at the end of ME3. They're not necessary the last external threat. Humanity is going to save everyone, and only humanity deserves the ruling position of upholding the galactic stability. The species should look to us for guidance. We might become a little overwhelmed with the responsibility at the beginning, but we'll have help from new Councilors (quarians, krogan, vorcha), and we'll manage.
The previous Council...cannot handle that responsibility. It's too difficult a job, and their abilities do not allow them to do it well. To be more frank, they failed miserably at it. And it requires a lot of strength and investment and fleet and firepower and such. We cannot ask that of them.
I'm not sure what our planet still having problems has anything to do with us deserving to rule. Every species has problems. That doesn't stop them from ruling. Asari has some dark secret they don't share with anyone (they're yet to solve that murder through sex pureblood problem), but that doesn't stop them from claiming superiority. If we wait until every last problem is resolved until we claim dominance, our colonies are going to be wiped out by the competitors because the Council didn't care, and we didn't have enough pull with them to help our children.
Modifié par laecraft, 29 octobre 2011 - 07:16 .
#3209
Posté 29 octobre 2011 - 07:04
Ravensword
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Where does Cerberus fall into this?
#3210
Posté 29 octobre 2011 - 07:07
Sebby
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Ravensword wrote...
Where does Cerberus fall into this?
Cerberus is the instigator of the Human-Quarian alliance due to providing assistance in reclaiming Rannoch with Project Overlord. That's one thing they've done...
#3211
Posté 29 octobre 2011 - 07:08
Ravensword
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Seboist wrote...
Ravensword wrote...
Where does Cerberus fall into this?
Cerberus is the instigator of the Human-Quarian alliance due to providing assistance in reclaiming Rannoch with Project Overlord. That's one thing they've done...
What if Project Overlord was cancelled b/c Shepard had David taken to the Grissom Academy?
#3212
Posté 29 octobre 2011 - 07:11
Sebby
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Ravensword wrote...
Seboist wrote...
Ravensword wrote...
Where does Cerberus fall into this?
Cerberus is the instigator of the Human-Quarian alliance due to providing assistance in reclaiming Rannoch with Project Overlord. That's one thing they've done...
What if Project Overlord was cancelled b/c Shepard had David taken to the Grissom Academy?
Overlord doesn't get cancelled if that happens. They still get useful data out of it and suffer a setback for a few years due to losing David.
#3213
Posté 29 octobre 2011 - 07:15
Blacklash93
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Shepard is not humanity. Just because he can choose what is best for certain races doesn't mean humanity as a whole can be trusted to do the same. It's politics, I tell ya, which Shepard is thankfully free from when he makes decisions.laecraft wrote...
In effect, Shepard's going to be a human War Councilor. He'll be given some power, and with that power, he will alter the lives of all the species and of the galaxy drastically for the better, changing the tide of the war into our favour. That's a given.
And then, when their problems are solved, it would be a mistake to take that power away from humanity. The Reapers are not necessary going to be destroyed at the end of ME3. They're not necessary the last external threat. Humanity is going to save everyone, and only humanity deserves the ruling position of upholding the galactic stability. The species should look to us for guidance. We might become a little overwhelmed with the responsibility at the beginning, but we'll have help from new Councilors (quarians, krogan, vorcha), and we'll manage.
The previous Council...cannot handle that responsibility. It's too difficult a job, and their abilities do not allow them to do it well. To be more frank, they failed miserably at it. And it requires a lot of strength and investment and fleet and firepower and such. We cannot ask that of them.
And no, humanity will not save everyone. The Reapers have already wiped the Alliance out and it's up to Shepard and the other races to help save humanity. Now that the Reapers have revealed themselves to everyone, the alien council is more than up to the task to take them out.
Give one group all the power and they'll eventually use it to put their interests first above all others. Everyone deserves a voice and the alien council made the same mistake in that regard.
#3214
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Posté 29 octobre 2011 - 07:18
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#3215
Posté 29 octobre 2011 - 07:26
Ravensword
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Seboist wrote...
Ravensword wrote...
Seboist wrote...
Ravensword wrote...
Where does Cerberus fall into this?
Cerberus is the instigator of the Human-Quarian alliance due to providing assistance in reclaiming Rannoch with Project Overlord. That's one thing they've done...
What if Project Overlord was cancelled b/c Shepard had David taken to the Grissom Academy?
Overlord doesn't get cancelled if that happens. They still get useful data out of it and suffer a setback for a few years due to losing David.
What does this mean for the Geth? Do they get under control?
#3216
Posté 29 octobre 2011 - 07:30
Blacklash93
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If the screens of us facing geth with parts of a familiar emblem on them are any indication, yes. Some geth are now working for Cerberus, and thus the Reapers.Ravensword wrote...
Seboist wrote...
Ravensword wrote...
Seboist wrote...
Ravensword wrote...
Where does Cerberus fall into this?
Cerberus is the instigator of the Human-Quarian alliance due to providing assistance in reclaiming Rannoch with Project Overlord. That's one thing they've done...
What if Project Overlord was cancelled b/c Shepard had David taken to the Grissom Academy?
Overlord doesn't get cancelled if that happens. They still get useful data out of it and suffer a setback for a few years due to losing David.
What does this mean for the Geth? Do they get under control?
Really, the fact that Cerberus is willing to brainwash an entire sentient race to further their own strength just shows how unfit they are to lead humanity.
Modifié par Blacklash93, 29 octobre 2011 - 07:32 .
#3217
Posté 29 octobre 2011 - 07:33
Dave of Canada
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The paragon choice for Legion's loyalty mission isn't any different either, you're both doing it to save "lives". The difference being Cerberus is doing it for the meatbags.
Modifié par Dave of Canada, 29 octobre 2011 - 07:34 .
#3218
Posté 29 octobre 2011 - 07:35
Blacklash93
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Grounding that decision in the paragon/renegade system was just stupid to begin with.
Modifié par Blacklash93, 29 octobre 2011 - 07:37 .
#3219
Posté 29 octobre 2011 - 07:36
Dave of Canada
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Agreed, though it doesn't stop the point.
#3220
Posté 29 octobre 2011 - 07:37
Radahldo
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Shepard can make that decesion after having an on-going dialog with a geth whos deliberating on it with others... Cerberus just does it on their own.
Modifié par Radahldo, 29 octobre 2011 - 07:38 .
#3221
Posté 29 octobre 2011 - 07:38
Kaiser Shepard
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The initial intention, however, wasn't for the geth to be "brainwashed" by the Overlord; they were merely to fall in line behind it, as the heretics did with Saren and Sovereign. There's nothing that says that the ME3 Cerberus geth aren't simply following their instincts.Blacklash93 wrote...
If the screens of us facing geth with parts of a familiar emblem on them are any indication, yes. Some geth are now working for Cerberus, and thus the Reapers.Ravensword wrote...
Seboist wrote...
Ravensword wrote...
Seboist wrote...
Ravensword wrote...
Where does Cerberus fall into this?
Cerberus is the instigator of the Human-Quarian alliance due to providing assistance in reclaiming Rannoch with Project Overlord. That's one thing they've done...
What if Project Overlord was cancelled b/c Shepard had David taken to the Grissom Academy?
Overlord doesn't get cancelled if that happens. They still get useful data out of it and suffer a setback for a few years due to losing David.
What does this mean for the Geth? Do they get under control?
Really, the fact that Cerberus is willing to brainwash an entire sentient race to further their own strength just shows how unfit they are to lead humanity.
#3222
Posté 29 octobre 2011 - 07:39
Sebby
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Blacklash93 wrote...
If the screens of us facing geth with parts of a familiar emblem on them are any indication, yes. Some geth are now working for Cerberus, and thus the Reapers.Ravensword wrote...
Seboist wrote...
Ravensword wrote...
Seboist wrote...
Ravensword wrote...
Where does Cerberus fall into this?
Cerberus is the instigator of the Human-Quarian alliance due to providing assistance in reclaiming Rannoch with Project Overlord. That's one thing they've done...
What if Project Overlord was cancelled b/c Shepard had David taken to the Grissom Academy?
Overlord doesn't get cancelled if that happens. They still get useful data out of it and suffer a setback for a few years due to losing David.
What does this mean for the Geth? Do they get under control?
Really, the fact that Cerberus is willing to brainwash an entire sentient race to further their own strength just shows how unfit they are to lead humanity.
Applying orgnanic standards to synthetics is racist.
Modifié par Seboist, 29 octobre 2011 - 07:40 .
#3223
Posté 29 octobre 2011 - 07:40
Dave of Canada
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Which makes it slightly worse.Radahldo wrote...
Shepard can make that decesion after having an on-going dialog with a geth whos deliberating on it with others... Cerberus just does it on their own.
Cerberus is doing it for the sake of saving lives by avoiding any Geth war and using them as shock troopers to save the lives of any soldiers who'd die in any confrontation after.
Legion wants you to do it to brainwash the group that opposes his group.
Modifié par Dave of Canada, 29 octobre 2011 - 07:41 .
#3224
Posté 29 octobre 2011 - 07:45
Blacklash93
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First off, Legion doesn't want you to do it. He's torn on the issue. If that's definitely what he wanted, then Shepard woudn't have been the one to make the choice.Dave of Canada wrote...
Legion wants you to do it to brainwash the group that opposes his group.
Legion was saving lives too when dealing with the heretics. The Reapers have less support and the heretics will no longer pose a threat to the main faction of geth, as they were trying to brainwash them initially.
Modifié par Blacklash93, 29 octobre 2011 - 07:46 .
#3225
Posté 29 octobre 2011 - 07:47
Radahldo
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At the start legion says that but at the end, after sharing and considering the opinions of many otther geth, they come to stalemate dont they?
I don't see how Cerberus privileging the lives of humans over the self-determination of another species is better. The whole scenario doesnt need to happen. Theres also the whole thing with david.
With Legion that is their own matter and they don't even come to a conclusion
I don't see how Cerberus privileging the lives of humans over the self-determination of another species is better. The whole scenario doesnt need to happen. Theres also the whole thing with david.
With Legion that is their own matter and they don't even come to a conclusion
Modifié par Radahldo, 29 octobre 2011 - 07:49 .
