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[Xilizhra]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I undertake actions to lead to the best possible universe. This includes screwing over Cerberus, which is a much lighter action to take against TIM than outright killing, something I've done to many people whose crimes have been far lesser.

Again, you judge all too quickly. You Paragons claim that TIM and Cerberus are criminal and "evil", based on incomplete and mostly second-hand information. For some mysterious reason you take for granted that you and the institutions you support (Alliance, Council, whatever) are less criminal or "evil" than Cerberus. I do not. I don't have sufficient knowledge about the Galaxy to form that kind of judgment. If anyone does, it's Liara, the Shadow Broker. And her attitude towards Cerberus is between neutral (my stance) and extremely positive (Seboist's stance).

Whether or not they are is also irrelevant. Cerberus isn't a government and can thus be destroyed by force with far less fallout on civilians. And I feel quite safe in declaring their evil from Shadow Broker information alone.

[Sebby]

Sadly the genophage/fcw conversation can only be avoided if you don't talk to Wrex in the first place. That's by far the worst squadmate conversation in the series bar none.

[Sebby]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I undertake actions to lead to the best possible universe. This includes screwing over Cerberus, which is a much lighter action to take against TIM than outright killing, something I've done to many people whose crimes have been far lesser.

Again, you judge all too quickly. You Paragons claim that TIM and Cerberus are criminal and "evil", based on incomplete and mostly second-hand information. For some mysterious reason you take for granted that you and the institutions you support (Alliance, Council, whatever) are less criminal or "evil" than Cerberus. I do not. I don't have sufficient knowledge about the Galaxy to form that kind of judgment. If anyone does, it's Liara, the Shadow Broker. And her attitude towards Cerberus is between neutral (my stance) and extremely positive (Seboist's stance).

You know, if we're able to ally with Cerberus in ME3 and she continues her neutral to positive stance I may very well create a Liaramancer shep.

[Xilizhra]

I seem to recall the U.S. government making similar comments concerning Al-Qaeda.

For one thing, the US government went about it in a rather stupid manner. For another thing, the situations are remarkably different. Cerberus doesn't have a broad, popular, religio-cultural civilian base and it's not primarily operating on foreign soil.

Then I'm happy for you. But alas, I cannot share that joy.

Shame. You don't have to be in bed with evil.

[BlueMagitek]

Alright, ignore me, I see how it is. Meanie.

Wait, wait, wait. Cerberus is the evil one? The Council has done worse, the Alliance has done questionable things itself (and seems to have some connection with Cerberus), and you're calling Cerberus the evil one?

[Xilizhra]

But hey, if you'd like to spin it that way; how can you ask TIM to share information with you when you're doing all that you can to impede him? If you were really dedicated to fighting the Reapers, regardless of your views on Cerberus, you would deal with the human dominance group after the Reapers have been dealt with; unless you view Cerberus to be worse than a species that has successfully culled a multitude of other species a number of times.

Dealing with them later was certainly my initial plan, yes. However, their joining the Reapers has changed things.

Wait, wait, wait. Cerberus is the evil one? The Council has done worse, the Alliance has done questionable things itself (and seems to have some connection with Cerberus), and you're calling Cerberus the evil one?

I have ideas for reforming the Council and Alliance. This doesn't make Cerberus any better. Also, the current three Councilors don't seem to have done worse than Cerberus.

[Labrev]

laecraft wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

His property? What?

You (Shepard) are an agent acting on his behalf, fully funded and supplied by him, to defeat the Collectors. And since the Collectors are defeated, everything that the Collectors owned are now rightfully the property of The Illusive Man/Cerberus. The Paragon choice of blowing up the base is equivalent to a disgruntled employee sabotaging company property. 

Nah, I did what was right for him. Whether or not he, or anyone else, realizes he's better off without it.

Actually, we already know that this is not the case. TIM - and the rest of the galaxy - is better off with the base. Unless you consider being dead as better off than being alive, of course.

Cerberus enabled Shepard to fight his enemy - the Reapers - even from beyond the grave. That's a tremendous debt that cannot be denied, even though some people try. I should think that TIM deserved at the very least courtesy from Shepard, but nooo, Shepard has to be all aggressive and antagonistic at the end of ME2, instead of allowing us to celebrate.

We already know? That's news to me. I thought we've yet to see the decision play out either way.


What happens in the end is not a matter of returning favors or giving thanks, its about the fact that Shepard knows the real threat is yet to come. And, he/she has every right to be suspicious of TIM's intentions and demand that he use the base for the right reasons.

The base is just one step toward fighting the Reapers, and TIM needs to prove his committment to fighting it again, not to personal ambitions as his statements suggest ("human dominance against the Reapers and beyond"). Even if you agree with Cerberus and their goals, it is not a guarantee he'll carry it out in a way you agree with, or that he won't believe you've outlived your usefulness and need to be eliminated. I notice that you feel greatly indebted to TIM on account of him bringing you to life, I can't imagine how you'd feel if he tries to kill you.

And, let's be honest. TIM had plenty of selfish reasons to bring Shepard back to life, and acted on them first and foremost. Without Shepard, TIM and all humans may as well be dead, to use his own words. This not counting a plethora of other favors that he/she can do for them: geth salvage, Rawlings data, recovering numerous salvages, Eclipse crates, just to name a few (I'm sure I'm missing others). Shepard completing the mission alone is courtesy enough for being brought back to life.

So no, the end-game conclusion is no time to toast. It's time to get serious about the war ahead.

[Labrev]

Seboist wrote...

Sadly the genophage/fcw conversation can only be avoided if you don't talk to Wrex in the first place. That's by far the worst squadmate conversation in the series bar none.

It may be stupid to us players that know what the genophage is and everything. But, who's to say Shepard has ever met/talked to a krogan, or even knows completely what the genophage is?

Shepard doesn't know what we do. That reality is completely lost on most players.

[HiroVoid]

Xilizhra wrote...
I have ideas for reforming the Council and Alliance. This doesn't make Cerberus any better. Also, the current three Councilors don't seem to have done worse than Cerberus.

I really hope you can't.  There's a point where you can just give a character too much influence and power.  I personally enjoy the unintentional consequences of how the council ends up when I focus on sovereign. While I did it to take out Sovereign without taking the chance of Sovereign getting control, it still made it so the Alliance got a good control of the council which makes for a more conflicting run through the citadel like the Turian salesman.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dealing with them later was certainly my initial plan, yes. However, their joining the Reapers has changed things.

I have ideas for reforming the Council and Alliance. This doesn't make Cerberus any better. Also, the current three Councilors don't seem to have done worse than Cerberus.

We don't know what Cerberus is really up to; I doubt Bioware would let TIM follow in Saren's footsteps.

The three sitting Councilors nearly doomed the galaxy to Reapers.  But are we only allowed to judge a government on its current actions?  Alright, fair enough.  The three sitting Councilors (or at least the Asari) have:

Ignored Geth hostility (and not engaged in diplomacy) against a species that is a part of the Citadel species.
Nearly doomed the galaxy.
Enacted racist policies against the Quarians.
Ignored the Reaper threat (even if they believed Sovereign to be a grand dreadnaught of the Geth, they should have done something about that).
Continued the genophage (Mordin was part of the team; it had to have been recently).
Allow their agents to use any means necessary with little oversight.

[Xilizhra]

We don't know what Cerberus is really up to; I doubt Bioware would let TIM follow in Saren's footsteps.

True. Saren had the good of the galaxy as a whole in mind, not just turians.

The three sitting Councilors nearly doomed the galaxy to Reapers.

Udina did more to do so, and Cerberus certainly wasn't helping. If they'd killed Shepard in one of the labs...

Ignored Geth hostility (and not engaged in diplomacy) against a species that is a part of the Citadel species.

It wasn't ignored, they sent a Spectre to handle the matter. The amount of time between Udina's initial demands and Shepard finding evidence implicating Saren was miniscule.

Enacted racist policies against the Quarians.

If you mean Ekuna, the quarians tried to steal a planet in Citadel territory.

Ignored the Reaper threat (even if they believed Sovereign to be a grand dreadnaught of the Geth, they should have done something about that).

Do we know that? We know they didn't tell Shepard... the Cerberus agent.

Continued the genophage (Mordin was part of the team; it had to have been recently).

Regrettable necessity.

Allow their agents to use any means necessary with little oversight.

If you're trying to say Cerberus is any better here...

[HiroVoid]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Dealing with them later was certainly my initial plan, yes. However, their joining the Reapers has changed things.

I have ideas for reforming the Council and Alliance. This doesn't make Cerberus any better. Also, the current three Councilors don't seem to have done worse than Cerberus.

We don't know what Cerberus is really up to; I doubt Bioware would let TIM follow in Saren's footsteps.

The three sitting Councilors nearly doomed the galaxy to Reapers.  But are we only allowed to judge a government on its current actions?  Alright, fair enough.  The three sitting Councilors (or at least the Asari) have:

Ignored Geth hostility (and not engaged in diplomacy) against a species that is a part of the Citadel species.
Agreed with.
Nearly doomed the galaxy.
They made a mistake about Sovereign at first which is understandable since many people don't believe in dreadnaughts that can eliminate all of galactic civlization.
Enacted racist policies against the Quarians.
The council should have taken actions against the geth then due to the potential threat of leaving them alone(Note: This is before we realize they're isolanist, and they just nearly murdered a species).  And while I think the Quarians should have been punished, they should have been given some type of aid.
Ignored the Reaper threat (even if they believed Sovereign to be a grand dreadnaught of the Geth, they should have done something about that).
After Mass Effect 1, agreed since they know Shepard was practically right about some form of threat, so you should give what he says some credit.
Continued the genophage (Mordin was part of the team; it had to have been recently).
Krogans have never shown or given any indication that curing it would be a good thing galactically.
Allow their agents to use any means necessary with little oversight.
Pallin:  They need to be held to a higher standard.

[HiroVoid]

Xilizhra wrote...

We don't know what Cerberus is really up to; I doubt Bioware would let TIM follow in Saren's footsteps.

True. Saren had the good of the galaxy as a whole in mind, not just turians.
Actually, Saren wanted to originally use Sovereign before he knew it was a reaper for Turian domination.

The three sitting Councilors nearly doomed the galaxy to Reapers.

Udina did more to do so, and Cerberus certainly wasn't helping. If they'd killed Shepard in one of the labs...
Udina helped and did just as much to hinder Shepard as the council did.  With Cerberus, sure.  They weren't aware of the reaper threat at the time obviously though.

Ignored Geth hostility (and not engaged in diplomacy) against a species that is a part of the Citadel species.

It wasn't ignored, they sent a Spectre to handle the matter. The amount of time between Udina's initial demands and Shepard finding evidence implicating Saren was miniscule.
That doesn't change geth hostility.  That changes whether Saren was involved.

Enacted racist policies against the Quarians.

If you mean Ekuna, the quarians tried to steal a planet in Citadel territory.
The Quarians approached the council about settingling it, but since they put people down already, the council got pissed and gave it to the elcor instead.

Ignored the Reaper threat (even if they believed Sovereign to be a grand dreadnaught of the Geth, they should have done something about that).

Do we know that? We know they didn't tell Shepard... the Cerberus agent.
Agreed if it's proven in ME3.

Continued the genophage (Mordin was part of the team; it had to have been recently).

Regrettable necessity.
Agreed.

Allow their agents to use any means necessary with little oversight.

If you're trying to say Cerberus is any better here...
Not aimed at me still obviously, but yeah. Cerberus is still worse, though I can understand the benefits of certain operations like Overlord.

[Sebby]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Dealing with them later was certainly my initial plan, yes. However, their joining the Reapers has changed things.

I have ideas for reforming the Council and Alliance. This doesn't make Cerberus any better. Also, the current three Councilors don't seem to have done worse than Cerberus.

We don't know what Cerberus is really up to; I doubt Bioware would let TIM follow in Saren's footsteps.

The three sitting Councilors nearly doomed the galaxy to Reapers.  But are we only allowed to judge a government on its current actions?  Alright, fair enough.  The three sitting Councilors (or at least the Asari) have:

Ignored Geth hostility (and not engaged in diplomacy) against a species that is a part of the Citadel species.
Nearly doomed the galaxy.
Enacted racist policies against the Quarians.
Ignored the Reaper threat (even if they believed Sovereign to be a grand dreadnaught of the Geth, they should have done something about that).
Continued the genophage (Mordin was part of the team; it had to have been recently).
Allow their agents to use any means necessary with little oversight.

It's also a racial caste system where the "lesser" races have no real say and which is meant to enforce Asari,Turian and Salarian dominance over the galaxy.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

True. Saren had the good of the galaxy as a whole in mind, not just turians.

Udina did more to do so, and Cerberus certainly wasn't helping. If they'd killed Shepard in one of the labs...

It wasn't ignored, they sent a Spectre to handle the matter. The amount of time between Udina's initial demands and Shepard finding evidence implicating Saren was miniscule.

If you mean Ekuna, the quarians tried to steal a planet in Citadel territory.

Do we know that? We know they didn't tell Shepard... the Cerberus agent.

Regrettable necessity.

If you're trying to say Cerberus is any better here...

*whole galaxy minus the undesirables.  I doubt Saren would have shed a tear to see the humans go.

Without Udina you would have never become a spectre.  If the Council had any sense, they would have finally gone after Saren instead of insisting on shutting you down, which Udina would have not opposed. 

It was ignored; when a species that hasn't shown itself outside of the Veil or contacted you for 300 years comes out in force and strikes one of your allies, you do something about it, you don't just declare it a human problem.  At best it is gross negligence, at worst it is the Council celebrating against humans.  Heck, they shut down Garrus' investigation after a miniscule amount of time.

A planet the Quarians discovered on the edge of Council space, right next to the Veil (which they berate humans for).  Evil.  Considering the condition and placement of the planet, it's hardly thievery, especially when the species doesn't have a home planet anymore.

...They don't tell Shepard, regardless of how he acted in ME 1 or ME 2.  Even if they believe it to be a Geth creation, they should be doing something to assure the masses that the thing that would have destroyed the almight Asari flagship is being dealt with. 

And yet still an evil act.  If Cerberus did such a thing to say, the Volus or Batarians, you would be screaming curses at them.

Why do you allow the Council to get away with something and condemn another organization for doing the same thing?  Especially when we have examples of Saren & Vasir murdering people for no good reason?

--

Now, for Hiro

I agree that they had every right to be skeptical about Sovereign in ME 1, but they railroaded Garrus' investigation and then didn't go after Saren when they had the chance.

The Quarians were punished; they were stripped of their status at the Citadel and seemingly not given aid.  It was exceptionally harsh.  Then denied subpar planets (under threat of extermination) near the Veil that the Council is so terrified of later.

As for the Krogan, I agree that the genophage may have been the best action, but the Council really dropped the ball; they raised the Krogan to a spacefaring race; it is their responsibility to see to their welfare... and given the state of their homeplanet, they're really deadbeat parents.

He is not a Councilor and he unfortunately dies.

Edit:

Seboist, we're only using the current Councilors!  Or else it isn't fair for some reason. >_>

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 31 octobre 2011 - 03:53 .

[Xilizhra]

[quote]Actually, Saren wanted to originally use Sovereign before he knew it was a reaper for Turian domination.[/quote]
Hm, true. TIM may indeed be similar to Saren in that way.

[quote]Udina helped and did just as much to hinder Shepard as the council did. With Cerberus, sure. They weren't aware of the reaper threat at the time obviously though.[/quote]
Udina was the one who actually grounded Shepard... and wasn't Cerberus founded to stop the Reapers? Or so TIM claimed, anyway... interesting.

[quote]That doesn't change geth hostility. That changes whether Saren was involved.[/quote]
We don't know what the Council would have done if Saren hadn't been involved. It just wouldn't involve a fleet being sent into the Terminus.

[quote]The Quarians approached the council about settingling it, but since they put people down already, the council got pissed and gave it to the elcor instead.[/quote]
Yes, it was the "putting people down already" part that was the no-no.

[quote]A planet the Quarians discovered on the edge of Council space, right next to the Veil (which they berate humans for). Evil. Considering the condition and placement of the planet, it's hardly thievery, especially when the species doesn't have a home planet anymore.[/quote]
The elcor could still make better use of it, and the quarians did unlawfully colonize it. Regardless of whether or not the Council was right, it's infinitesimal compared to Cerberus' crimes.

[quote]...They don't tell Shepard, regardless of how he acted in ME 1 or ME 2. Even if they believe it to be a Geth creation, they should be doing something to assure the masses that the thing that would have destroyed the almight Asari flagship is being dealt with. [/quote]
They are doing exactly that, by waging war on the geth.

[quote]And yet still an evil act. If Cerberus did such a thing to say, the Volus or Batarians, you would be screaming curses at them.[/quote]
Volus and batarians aren't culturally driven to wreak havoc while having a birthrate that forces them to constantly expand (batarians do have some of the former, but lack the latter).

[quote]Why do you allow the Council to get away with something and condemn another organization for doing the same thing? Especially when we have examples of Saren & Vasir murdering people for no good reason?[/quote]
For one thing, I can't attack the Council. For another thing, it'd face a great deal of public backlash even if I did. I'm much more inclined to suggest reforms to the Council.

[quote]they raised the Krogan to a spacefaring race; it is their responsibility to see to their welfare... and given the state of their homeplanet, they're really deadbeat parents.[/quote]
The Council did. It gave them colony worlds and Council representation. The krogan than squandered it by attacking everyone.

[quote]Seboist, we're only using the current Councilors! Or else it isn't fair for some reason. >_>[/quote]
The Council is millenia older than Cerberus. Trying to compare lists of all atrocities committed by both organizations will obviously be horrifically skewed, because the ages are horrifically skewed. I'm trying to compare atrocities committed within the same time frame.

[quote]It's also a racial caste system where the "lesser" races have no real say and which is meant to enforce Asari,Turian and Salarian dominance over the galaxy.[/quote]
Don't pretend you wouldn't do the exact same thing to give humanity sole power.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 31 octobre 2011 - 04:01 .

[HiroVoid]

BlueMagitek wrote...
Now, for Hiro

I agree that they had every right to be skeptical about Sovereign in ME 1, but they railroaded Garrus' investigation and then didn't go after Saren when they had the chance.

The Quarians were punished; they were stripped of their status at the Citadel and seemingly not given aid.  It was exceptionally harsh.  Then denied subpar planets (under threat of extermination) near the Veil that the Council is so terrified of later.

As for the Krogan, I agree that the genophage may have been the best action, but the Council really dropped the ball; they raised the Krogan to a spacefaring race; it is their responsibility to see to their welfare... and given the state of their homeplanet, they're really deadbeat parents.

He is not a Councilor and he unfortunately dies.

Edit:

Seboist, we're only using the current Councilors!  Or else it isn't fair for some reason. >_>

Agreed with the investigation in to Saren.  They ignored a single spectre being called out based on an eye witness, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt due to agreeing with Udina about involving Anderson being a mistake due to the past between them.  They still didn't let Garrus look at any of Saren's files, and they must have passed on Nihlus's files to Saren at the same time the news of his death was delivered and Saren was accused

Agreed about the quarians since they didn't intend on creating the geth, and the whole thing was a mistake.  Plus, since it seems there are only a small amount of actual species with embassies, it seems weird just to abandon them after that.

I disagree about that with you and mordin.  The Rachni were obliterating the galaxy, and raising the Krogan was a neccesary case to push them back to make sure they were defeated.  The council gave them several worlds, and treated them generously, but it was them that ultimately caused the upcoming war.

That was my way of saying agreed in that they need to be held more accountable.

[HiroVoid]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...
Hm, true. TIM may indeed be similar to Saren in that way.[/quote]
Agreed.
[quote]
Udina was the one who actually grounded Shepard... and wasn't Cerberus founded to stop the Reapers? Or so TIM claimed, anyway... interesting.[/quote]
The council was as much against Shepard going to Ilos as Udina was, and I personally believe they talked about the issue beforehand.  Plus, the council IS technically Shepard's bosses, so it would be treason to go against what they specifically tell you not to do.
At the least, TIM didn't know about the reapers' involvement at this point, or when they would come at this point.  Admittedly, I'm not that familiar with the new comic.

[quote]
We don't know what the Council would have done if Saren hadn't been involved. It just wouldn't involve a fleet being sent into the Terminus.[/quote]
Techincally, it would be a fleet in the Attican Traverse.  It's debatable though I believe thinking the Terminus would go to war for a fleet there is being a bit too paranoid as long as you make your reasons for being there clear.  It could also help reduce the slaver attacks.

[quote]
Yes, it was the "putting people down already" part that was the no-no.[/quote]
I still consider telling a species they can't just have the planet cause they already started putting people on it childish especially when the race in question has been looking for a planet to settle for centuries.

[quote]A planet the Quarians discovered on the edge of Council space, right next to the Veil (which they berate humans for). Evil. Considering the condition and placement of the planet, it's hardly thievery, especially when the species doesn't have a home planet anymore.[/quote]
[quote]The elcor could still make better use of it, and the quarians did unlawfully colonize it. Regardless of whether or not the Council was right, it's infinitesimal compared to Cerberus' crimes.[/quote]
Personally, I think it would've been a better oppportunity to help the Quarians rejoin the galactic community, and have them stop having to get spare parts and resources from systems they pass by.

[quote]...They don't tell Shepard, regardless of how he acted in ME 1 or ME 2. Even if they believe it to be a Geth creation, they should be doing something to assure the masses that the thing that would have destroyed the almight Asari flagship is being dealt with. [/quote]
[quote]They are doing exactly that, by waging war on the geth.[/quote]
This'll just have to wait until there's proof they were investigating Sovereign in ME3.  It is good they ultimately decided to go to war with the Geth after they attacked the Citadel itself though I doubt they had much choice at that point since they had to retaliate agains the Geth in some way after what happened.
[quote]they raised the Krogan to a spacefaring race; it is their responsibility to see to their welfare... and given the state of their homeplanet, they're really deadbeat parents.[/quote]
[quote]The Council did. It gave them colony worlds and Council representation. The krogan than squandered it by attacking everyone.[/quote]
Agreed with the choice of the genophage. 
[quote]It's also a racial caste system where the "lesser" races have no real say and which is meant to enforce Asari,Turian and Salarian dominance over the galaxy.[/quote]
[quote]Don't pretend you wouldn't do the exact same thing to give humanity sole power.[/quote]
This is unfortunately going to happen no matter the case once you realize there are actually a good many more species we just don't see due to design/system restraints.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 31 octobre 2011 - 04:23 .

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

Hm, true. TIM may indeed be similar to Saren in that way.

Udina was the one who actually grounded Shepard... and wasn't Cerberus founded to stop the Reapers? Or so TIM claimed, anyway... interesting.

We don't know what the Council would have done if Saren hadn't been involved. It just wouldn't involve a fleet being sent into the Terminus.

Yes, it was the "putting people down already" part that was the no-no.

The elcor could still make better use of it, and the quarians did unlawfully colonize it. Regardless of whether or not the Council was right, it's infinitesimal compared to Cerberus' crimes.

They are doing exactly that, by waging war on the geth.

Volus and batarians aren't culturally driven to wreak havoc while having a birthrate that forces them to constantly expand (batarians do have some of the former, but lack the latter).

For one thing, I can't attack the Council. For another thing, it'd face a great deal of public backlash even if I did. I'm much more inclined to suggest reforms to the Council.

The Council did. It gave them colony worlds and Council representation. The krogan than squandered it by attacking everyone.

The Council is millenia older than Cerberus. Trying to compare lists of all atrocities committed by both organizations will obviously be horrifically skewed, because the ages are horrifically skewed. I'm trying to compare atrocities committed within the same time frame.

Don't pretend you wouldn't do the exact same thing to give humanity sole power.

No; TIM is much better than Saren.  TIM doesn't have an issue with aliens serving alongside or under humans.  Saren just has issues with humans in general.

Udina only grounded Shep due to the Council.

Considering there is footage of a strange "Geth" dreadnaught just completely wrecking things on Eden Prime *and* this is the first show of Geth for 300 years, a single Spectre is not acceptable.  The Council is completely ignoring it's duty to it's ally to allow such a thing to occur.  Even if it is bordering the Terminus System (which the Council has no issue sending a fleet near to blow Quarians up with).

Which is still an evil action, as the Quarians don't have a planet at all.  It might be lawful, but the entire "murder everyone on the planet" is pretty clearly evil. 

Yes, destroying the hopes and one of the few colonization attempts by a species that is reduced to living on fleets of ships, who are despised as thieves and miscreants throughout the galaxy is truly worse than Cerberus.  Especially the part where they blew everything up there.  Awful, awful.

Really?  Because they haven't struck past the Perseus Veil.  Clearing your borders is hardly waging war.  That you can even bring Legion onto the Citadel without being accosted brings more than a few questions.

Yet you didn't deny it.

You easily can.  "Focus on Sovereign".  Or support the Terra Firma party, or the alliance.  The appropriate decision of ME1.  Oh yes, suggest reforms to a Council which enjoys throwing you under a bus.  Excellent strategy.  But now that you've brought it up; would you attack the Council, given the chance?

And then they castrated the species and tossed them to ruin.  But hey, at least they get a statue, right?

That's hardly fair.  If I were to compare Systems Alliance and the Turian Hierachy, would it only be fair to use the 26 years or so the humans have been around?  A new organization, especially one in a hostile universe, is going to be messier when they begin than later, when they've had a chance to settle.

Not to me, but:  No.  I wouldn't give humans sole power over ever species out there.  The entire Council idea is flawed in that three people, who don't represent every species, gets to decide their fate.  That's horrible and enforces the status quo.  We thrive in chaos.

---

To Hiro

Since we agree on quite a few things, I'm only going to address the Krogan.  Now, yes, the Rachni were a huge threat and had to be dealt with.  Raising the Krogan may have been their only solution (though I dislike the idea of "let's minimize our problems by raising a species that isn't ready to fight our battles for us!")  but even in the aftermath, the genophage was horribly harsh.  1 in 1000? Confined on a planet as rough as the Krogan's (the name eludes me at the moment) with such violent means is just killing the Krogan slowly. 

Now, I'd love to stay and argue, but it's past midnight for me; I'll see you all in the morning. 

[Xilizhra]

[quote]It would only be fair to hold this against Udina if his actions at the time were unreasonable. They weren't. Try to look at it fromo his perspective. Besides, if you want to bash him bash him for not doing anything about the Reaeprs in the aftermath, for going back on his word.[/quote]
Fair enough.

[quote]This was a world the quarians discovered, mind you. One out in the unstable regions of the traverse/terminus, a region the Council isn't willing to defend when humans are under attack. Hypocrisy. Either the worlds aren't important enough to defend or they are so important that quarians must be evicted by force. Which is it? You can't have both.[/quote]
The quarians didn't discover it, they just landed because they thought that it being unclaimed was enough. And the last time someone moved in prediscovered territory (humans coming close to batarians), it sparked a huge diplomatic incident and created potential for more warfare. The Council probably has a policy to nip this sort of thing in the bud from now on.

[quote]Here is a Council crime: the destruction of a refinery and some 500 workers inside. The Council is responsible for that as it was a sanctioned Spectre who did it. The Council turned a blind eye and cared not to investigate. How about Saren having an Alliance frigate shot down?[/quote]
The Council didn't know it was responsible, as Saren foisted the blame on to Anderson. As for the frigate, I assume that happened in Revelation, which I haven't read.

[quote]How is that the same? It dispenses with the mocerky of freedom and participation and instead just creates a human state. Perfectly fair and it doesn't patronize the other races or promise them something they can't have. In the end everyone winds up more equal and with more influence do to the human Council not being nearly so untouchable as the alien one.[/quote]
Only temporarily. Those who led it would try to make humanity as untouchable as the other three races once were.

[quote]No; TIM is much better than Saren. TIM doesn't have an issue with aliens serving alongside or under humans. Saren just has issues with humans in general.[/quote]
We shall see.

[quote]Considering there is footage of a strange "Geth" dreadnaught just completely wrecking things on Eden Prime *and* this is the first show of Geth for 300 years, a single Spectre is not acceptable. The Council is completely ignoring it's duty to it's ally to allow such a thing to occur. Even if it is bordering the Terminus System (which the Council has no issue sending a fleet near to blow Quarians up with).[/quote]
Only one colony was in fact attacked, so the Council was completely right in its assumption that Saren would have to go stealthily after his cover was blown. A fleet could have perhaps destroyed the geth hitting Feros, but that would actually have been worse, because the colony would have remained under the Thorian's control in all likelihood and the Cipher would never be found.

[quote]Which is still an evil action, as the Quarians don't have a planet at all. It might be lawful, but the entire "murder everyone on the planet" is pretty clearly evil. [/quote]
The Council murdered no one, only threatened to attack.

[quote]Yes, destroying the hopes and one of the few colonization attempts by a species that is reduced to living on fleets of ships, who are despised as thieves and miscreants throughout the galaxy is truly worse than Cerberus. Especially the part where they blew everything up there. Awful, awful.[/quote]
I don't think so. It was only an opportunity loss, as opposed to the loss of freedom/sanity/life Cerberus has freely inflicted.

[quote]Really? Because they haven't struck past the Perseus Veil. Clearing your borders is hardly waging war. That you can even bring Legion onto the Citadel without being accosted brings more than a few questions.[/quote]
The Council destroyed the vast majority of geth forces beyond the Veil, and the geth haven't launched any major attacks in years.

[quote]Yet you didn't deny it.[/quote]
If Cerberus performed an imitation of a Council act that would be utterly pointless if used against volus or batarians, yes.

[quote]You easily can. "Focus on Sovereign". Or support the Terra Firma party, or the alliance. The appropriate decision of ME1. Oh yes, suggest reforms to a Council which enjoys throwing you under a bus. Excellent strategy. But now that you've brought it up; would you attack the Council, given the chance?[/quote]
I won't kill ten thousand people to usher in a less grateful set of successors who won't reform the government at all. And Terra Firma is worthless, not even commanding Cerberus' circumstantially useful resources.
And I don't plan on attacking, for reasons previously mentioned.

[quote]And then they castrated the species and tossed them to ruin. But hey, at least they get a statue, right?[/quote]
The krogan brought it on themselves, and continue to necessitate it with a continuously violent culture. Unless, of course, they'd rather be wiped out entirely...

[quote]That's hardly fair. If I were to compare Systems Alliance and the Turian Hierachy, would it only be fair to use the 26 years or so the humans have been around? A new organization, especially one in a hostile universe, is going to be messier when they begin than later, when they've had a chance to settle.[/quote]
If their situations are incomparable, don't compare them. You started this.

[quote]Not to me, but: No. I wouldn't give humans sole power over ever species out there. The entire Council idea is flawed in that three people, who don't represent every species, gets to decide their fate. That's horrible and enforces the status quo. We thrive in chaos.[/quote]
You lack Seboist's turgid evil, then. Good for you.