6970 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

[quote]Parents don't bring back from the dead a mature person who stood for humanity in its darkest hour, they simply give life. And it doesn't cost them billions of credits while the entire Earth has to contribute to the reconstruction of a destroyed body. And they don't bring a person from beyond the grave to enable him to fight the greatest threat of humanity's brief existence.[/quote]
So your loyalty is in large part based around how much someone paid for you? That's rather more mercenary than I thought.

[quote]Why was the Council willing to send 'the Fleet!" into the Terminus to evict quarian refugees, but was unwilling to send it into the Traverse to fight an actual geth incursion?[/quote]
The Phoenix Massing isn't in the Terminus.

[quote]Its in the Hades Nexus, so the absoute edge of Citadel space.[/quote]
No, it's in the Phoenix Massing.

[quote]I wonder if the Council would defend Illium if it came under attack. Illium is very close to the Terminus Systems, in fact it's highly profitable to the asari because of that, all those illegal goods that come from the lucrative trade with Terminus that you won't find anywhere else...[/quote]
Well, once the Reapers show up, borders may no longer matter.

[quote]It's still completely irresponsible. The investigation on Noveria, sure, that requires stealth. Going to those Prothean ruins, sure, a few people. But Virmire or Feros? They deserved a fleet (I'll forgive Virmire because of faulty communication, but still). [/quote]
A fleet would have ruined Feros' chances.

[quote]A threat that was taken seriously, if the Quarian reaction is any proof. Out of spite, they then gave "their" planet to another species which already has a good amount, at least compared to the Quarians. And no, the Council murders people all the time.[/quote]
It wasn't out of spite. The elcor could actually make use of it.

[quote]An opportunity loss? Given how many times we see the Quarians attempt to recolonize, that's less of an opportunity loss and more of a slap to the face. Cerberus' crimes are miniscule in comparison.[/quote]
Ekuna is like the one and only time they have. They're more, by and large, focused on taking back Rannoch.

[quote]As opposed to letting everyone in the galaxy die? That's rather horrid of you. Those people on the DA are military; if they didn't want to put themselves in danger, they wouldn't have joined their military (or not taken such a prestigious position of guarding the Citadel). [/quote]
I was quite confident at that point that helping the Destiny Ascension wouldn't damage the galaxy's chances for survival.

[quote]Ah yes, the entire cultural warfare thing. Let me guess, you'll also convince the Batarians to give up their slaveholding ways? It isn't like the Krogan's hatred of the genocide caused any backlash against the Council, right? [/quote]
Minor compared to what the krogan would do.

[quote]Their situations are comparable. You're just placing ridiculous restrictions on them to defend your mindset.[/quote]
You yourself said they were incomparable.

[quote]You're calling someone evil? You support terrorists. >_>[/quote]
I am calling someone evil and will continue to do so.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 31 octobre 2011 - 02:22 .

[General User]

The Phoenix Massing is the location of Ekuna, Aite, and Heretic Station. The second is identified as a Terminus planet, and Shepard identifies the third as being in the Terminus during Legion's LM, strongly implying that the entire cluster is considered Terminus space.

Is it possible that Ekuna is the only Citadel system in an otherwise Terminus star cluster? Yes. But, even if that were true, it would mean that Ekuna less borders Terminus space than is an outpost within Terminus space. Making Council intervention on Ekuna a significantly MORE tenuous prospect.

Modifié par General User, 31 octobre 2011 - 02:38 .

[Xilizhra]

Is it possible that Ekuna is the only Citadel system in an otherwise Terminus star cluster? Yes.

Given that the Council could decide who owned it, it would have to be.

Making Council intervention on Ekuna a significantly MORE tenuous prospect.

Whatever Council intervention would happen there would be vastly shorter. Any fleet would just have to drop in for one bombardment operation and then leave. Sending a fleet to patrol the Terminus for geth would take far longer and could be seen as far more aggressive.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Is it possible that Ekuna is the only Citadel system in an otherwise Terminus star cluster? Yes.

Given that the Council could decide who owned it, it would have to be.

I daresay that that's the problem.  The Council's borders are wherever they say their borders are.  Their authority stops wherever they say their authority stops.

Xilizhra wrote...

Making Council intervention on Ekuna a significantly MORE tenuous prospect.

Whatever Council intervention would happen there would be vastly shorter. Any fleet would just have to drop in for one bombardment operation and then leave. Sending a fleet to patrol the Terminus for geth would take far longer and could be seen as far more aggressive.

You're not far wrong.  The scummy warlords of the Terminus are, well... scummy warlords.  A prolonged Council fleet action is a threat to them, whereas plastering a few reugee camps is just business as usual.

[Xilizhra]

You're not far wrong. The scummy warlords of the Terminus are, well... scummy warlords. A prolonged Council fleet action is a threat to them, whereas plastering a few reugee camps is just business as usual.

I don't think "refugee camps" is accurate. They're thieves-by-colonization.

[General User]

'Squatter settlements' is probably the most accurate term.

And, no, extermination via bombardment is not an acceptable way to deal with those either.

Modifié par General User, 31 octobre 2011 - 02:55 .

[Xilizhra]

That's why they only made a threat to do so, instead of just swooping in and blowing them up.

[General User]

You don't issue an ultimatum like that unless you intend to follow through.  You also can't issue an ultimatum like that unless the other side believes you will follow through.

The thing is, it was never a military matter in the first place. If the Council genuinely believed the quarian settlements were illegal, then they should have moved to arrest the settlers, and let the Migrant Fleet be the one to force the issue.

Modifié par General User, 31 octobre 2011 - 03:03 .

[Xilizhra]

Remember, it's in the Terminus area. The Council has to make it extremely fast.

[Barquiel]

aiDvEoN wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

General User wrote...

Why was the Council willing to send 'the Fleet!" into the Terminus to evict quarian refugees, but was unwilling to send it into the Traverse to fight an actual geth incursion?

That's easy: geth shoot back.

I don't think Ekuna is in the Terminus Systems. I mean...the elcor colonized it.

Its in the Hades Nexus, so the absoute edge of Citadel space.  The Council tried to weasel out of helping human colonies there that were suffering Geth attacks on the grounds that we took a risk by settling there, and any fleet action would antagonise the Terminus.

In other words, the borders of Citadel space are wherever the hell the Council needs them to be to suit them best.

The quarians informed the council that they colonized Ekuna -> They knew exactly that the system is in council space

The council simply didn't accept being presented with a fait accompli in this way.

[Dean_the_Young]

If it's the Terminus, the it's not the Council's place to make a choice.

So either it is Terminus space, in which the Council is engaged in an expansionist settlement policy and is willing to blow up undesirable squatters on territory it does not claim...

Or it's Council space, in which the Council is willing to blow up undesirable squatters on territory it does claim.

The only thing indisputable is that the Council was willing to put its galactic reputation on the line on the basis of whether it would, in fact, blow up squatters. 'Bluf' that does not support.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Remember, it's in the Terminus area. The Council has to make it extremely fast.

You say that as though evicting the quarians was a task that simply HAD to be accomplished.  What great interest or principle was at stake?  That everyone must settle where and only where they are told?  That's the edict of a tyrant!

Had I my druthers, I'd have the quarians and elcor to settle this between the two of them, with an offer to mediate.

Modifié par General User, 31 octobre 2011 - 03:14 .

[General User]

Barquiel wrote...

aiDvEoN wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

General User wrote...

Why was the Council willing to send 'the Fleet!" into the Terminus to evict quarian refugees, but was unwilling to send it into the Traverse to fight an actual geth incursion?

That's easy: geth shoot back.

I don't think Ekuna is in the Terminus Systems. I mean...the elcor colonized it.

Its in the Hades Nexus, so the absoute edge of Citadel space.  The Council tried to weasel out of helping human colonies there that were suffering Geth attacks on the grounds that we took a risk by settling there, and any fleet action would antagonise the Terminus.

In other words, the borders of Citadel space are wherever the hell the Council needs them to be to suit them best.

The quarians informed the council that they colonized Ekuna -> They knew exactly that the system is in council space

The council simply didn't accept being presented with a fait accompli in this way.

There's a big difference between taking one side in a territorial dispute and deciding to exterminate the opposite side en masse.

[Dean_the_Young]

Hell, the planet scan mentions that ruins of the Quarian settlement still stand.

It's a planet, not a island. It's not like there wasn't enough room for the both of them.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

A fleet would have ruined Feros' chances.

It wasn't out of spite. The elcor could actually make use of it.

Ekuna is like the one and only time they have. They're more, by and large, focused on taking back Rannoch.

I was quite confident at that point that helping the Destiny Ascension wouldn't damage the galaxy's chances for survival.

Minor compared to what the krogan would do.

You yourself said they were incomparable.

I am calling someone evil and will continue to do so.

The Council didn't know that.  They knew the Geth had attacked, but they didn't know about the Thorian.  It was the wrong action to take.

It was entirely out of spite.  The Quarians could have made use of having a homeworld far more than whatever the Elcor are doing with it.

Ruining the one and only time they've attempted to recolonize is pretty clearly an evil action.

The more firepower you waste saving the DA the less you have against Sovereign.  Sovereign is more of a threat and needs to be focused upon.  

If you say so.

They're incomparable because of the restriction you have placed on them.  If we were to compare the Council's actions to Cereberus' actions total, it would be a fairer comparison.  Or should we just cherry pick as we like?

As am I, the Council is clearly vile to the core.

[Sebby]

General User wrote...

Word.

Remember Garvug? War went on for months and the Council just stood around looking worried, but when it was revealed that there was a prothean technology cache involved, they put the boot in... hard.

I wish my Shepard could have helped the Krogan and Vorcha. :happy:

[BlueMagitek]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Hell, the planet scan mentions that ruins of the Quarian settlement still stand.

It's a planet, not a island. It's not like there wasn't enough room for the both of them.

This is science fiction, thus an entire planet is really just a city.

To be fair, apparently the only habitable area was around the equator of the planet, so it's still a large space, but not as much as a whole planet.

[Xilizhra]

The Council didn't know that. They knew the Geth had attacked, but they didn't know about the Thorian. It was the wrong action to take.

One reason Spectres exist is to determine what the right action is. It was (well, in my Shepard's case) an unqualified success.

It was entirely out of spite.

No.

Ruining the one and only time they've attempted to recolonize is pretty clearly an evil action.

If they'd ruined multiple attempts, perhaps. As it stands, one action is insufficient to make that judgment.

The more firepower you waste saving the DA the less you have against Sovereign. Sovereign is more of a threat and needs to be focused upon.

Not if Sovereign can't hack into the Citadel anymore with Saren dead (and if it could, why would it even need Saren to be in the Council Chamber?).

They're incomparable because of the restriction you have placed on them. If we were to compare the Council's actions to Cereberus' actions total, it would be a fairer comparison. Or should we just cherry pick as we like?

You're comparing the Council, an ancient government with many, many individuals leading it and with far more time to take actions of all sorts, with Cerberus, the personal goon squad of one very opinionated man. They're completely different things, and my restrictions are to put them onto some kind of similar level.

I think the truth here is that the development team placed many of the planets in the game randomly and was also random when assigning descriptions and missions to them.

Agreed. The terms "Attican Traverse" and "Terminus Systems" are never locationally defined in the slightest.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

One reason Spectres exist is to determine what the right action is. It was (well, in my Shepard's case) an unqualified success.

No.

If they'd ruined multiple attempts, perhaps. As it stands, one action is insufficient to make that judgment.

Not if Sovereign can't hack into the Citadel anymore with Saren dead (and if it could, why would it even need Saren to be in the Council Chamber?).

You're comparing the Council, an ancient government with many, many individuals leading it and with far more time to take actions of all sorts, with Cerberus, the personal goon squad of one very opinionated man. They're completely different things, and my restrictions are to put them onto some kind of similar level.

Agreed. The terms "Attican Traverse" and "Terminus Systems" are never locationally defined in the slightest.

I did not recognize you without your old display pic.  You got me there.

An army of Geth have descended upon a colony; option A should not be "Send that guy we only put on because of political reasons (after trying to railroad him earlier) on the case". 

No?  So the Quarians, (who they kicked off of the Citadel, provided no aid to, & just sat on the sidelines while the Geth attempted to eradicate their species) were completely in the wrong during their recolonization attempt (an attempt that was on the very edge of Council Space, right next to the Perseus Veil)?  The Council completely overreacted and were in the wrong. 

They're 1/1.  Coupled with the fact that they didn't aid the Quarians and kicked them off the Citadel, it's pretty clear.  And yes, it is still an evil action; multiple times would only compound it.

You mean aside from bypassing the Citadel's defenses?  The Reapers aren't stupid; they wouldn't have designed the Citadel without having a way to access it themselves.  Saren just helped the process.  

I am comparing one organization to another.  Both are responsible for vile actions; the Council having greater number & of greater evil than those of Cerberus.  Alright then, if you insist.  We'll compare TIM to the Council & Cerberus to the Spectres/STG.  Would that be "fair"?  The leadership vs. the leadership; the arm vs. the arm.

We know Ekuna is in the Phoenix Massing which is right next to the Veil (which cuts off the Terminus from Geth space).

[Xilizhra]

An army of Geth have descended upon a colony; option A should not be "Send that guy we only put on because of political reasons (after trying to railroad him earlier) on the case".

Wouldn't figuring out why the geth were attacking be a good start?

So the Quarians, (who they kicked off of the Citadel, provided no aid to, & just sat on the sidelines while the Geth attempted to eradicate their species)

The quarians did start it, by both breaking the spirit of the Council's anti-AI laws and then trying to eradicate the geth.

were completely in the wrong during their recolonization attempt (an attempt that was on the very edge of Council Space, right next to the Perseus Veil)?

They were enough in the wrong.

You mean aside from bypassing the Citadel's defenses? The Reapers aren't stupid; they wouldn't have designed the Citadel without having a way to access it themselves. Saren just helped the process.

Actually, the Reapers do seem to be on the stupid side. They couldn't track the Mu Relay after it was knocked out of alignment, the Collector base was woefully underdefended, and it took centuries to even start to correct the wrench that the Protheans threw into the Citadel system... not to mention them allowing the keepers to evolve away from Reaper signals. Perhaps not stupidity, but the Reapers are extremely complacent, as one might expect from a species that's done the same thing for at least millions of years. And if Saren was only needed to help, that wouldn't be enough of a motivation to create such a security risk (which is how the whole plan was in fact undone).

I am comparing one organization to another. Both are responsible for vile actions; the Council having greater number & of greater evil than those of Cerberus. Alright then, if you insist. We'll compare TIM to the Council & Cerberus to the Spectres/STG. Would that be "fair"? The leadership vs. the leadership; the arm vs. the arm.

For a truly fair comparison, you'd have to look at the total number of each actions committed, and how many atrocities were committed in proportion to the total. Then compare the fractions. This is utterly impossible because our records for Cerberus' major actions are vastly more complete than for the Council's, of which we've only ever gotten a few snippets. Your comparison is hopeless.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

Wouldn't figuring out why the geth were attacking be a good start?

The quarians did start it, by both breaking the spirit of the Council's anti-AI laws and then trying to eradicate the geth.

They were enough in the wrong.

Actually, the Reapers do seem to be on the stupid side. They couldn't track the Mu Relay after it was knocked out of alignment, the Collector base was woefully underdefended, and it took centuries to even start to correct the wrench that the Protheans threw into the Citadel system... not to mention them allowing the keepers to evolve away from Reaper signals. Perhaps not stupidity, but the Reapers are extremely complacent, as one might expect from a species that's done the same thing for at least millions of years. And if Saren was only needed to help, that wouldn't be enough of a motivation to create such a security risk (which is how the whole plan was in fact undone).

For a truly fair comparison, you'd have to look at the total number of each actions committed, and how many atrocities were committed in proportion to the total. Then compare the fractions. This is utterly impossible because our records for Cerberus' major actions are vastly more complete than for the Council's, of which we've only ever gotten a few snippets. Your comparison is hopeless.

Only if you're willing to sacrifice the lives of the colonists there.  And even then, an invasion demands a military response.

The Quarians did *not* break the AI law; the Geth were not intended to be AI, they simply developed that way as time went on.  In fact, by attempting to resolve this to comply with the law were they in serious trouble.  The Quarians stayed in line by attempting to eradicate the Geth (per Council rules).  Refusing to help a species reduced to 1% of their population is evil.

Ah, enough in the wrong, yes, which is why the Council had no problem with sending a fleet there (but god forbid that fleet actually try and protect a colony of a species within Council space).  The Council reaction was completely wrong, regardless of the Quarian's daring to put a few settlers down.

I wouldn't call a species that has successfully eradicated species for over (what was it, 37 million years?) a long period of time stupid.  The plan has worked up to now, after all.  The Collector base was better defended than anything else in the galaxy; the Reaper IFF was the only way in after all.  Saren's main job seemed to be eradicating the Citadel's defenses from the within (which would keep the fleets occupied outside while Sovereign opened the gateway).

Well, then we'll have to just accept that the Council has done far more unspeakable horrors than Cerberus can ever dream t, then.

[Xilizhra]

Only if you're willing to sacrifice the lives of the colonists there. And even then, an invasion demands a military response.

I'm not certain if it was an "invasion," per se. There were like two dropships total, one of which Shepard destroys, and the other just seems to leave. They weren't trying to destroy the colony, but find and kill the Thorian. Hackett is quite happy to send Shepard against a somewhat larger incursion in the Armstrong Nebula, remember.

The Quarians did *not* break the AI law; the Geth were not intended to be AI, they simply developed that way as time went on. In fact, by attempting to resolve this to comply with the law were they in serious trouble. The Quarians stayed in line by attempting to eradicate the Geth (per Council rules). Refusing to help a species reduced to 1% of their population is evil.

I think that Council law does protect the status of AIs, it just doesn't like them being created. And Tali said that the quarians were skirting the boundaries of the law; given the way history changes, it seems quite possible that the quarians were actually breaking it.

Ah, enough in the wrong, yes, which is why the Council had no problem with sending a fleet there (but god forbid that fleet actually try and protect a colony of a species within Council space). The Council reaction was completely wrong, regardless of the Quarian's daring to put a few settlers down.

The fleet was there for a miniscule length of time, not nearly enough to provoke a Terminus response.

I wouldn't call a species that has successfully eradicated species for over (what was it, 37 million years?) a long period of time stupid. The plan has worked up to now, after all. The Collector base was better defended than anything else in the galaxy; the Reaper IFF was the only way in after all. Saren's main job seemed to be eradicating the Citadel's defenses from the within (which would keep the fleets occupied outside while Sovereign opened the gateway).

The plan works only so long as no one tampers with any step of it, which took a while to do, but the Reapers only had to be a bit slow in taking out the Protheans for the Protheans to be able to understand mass relays enough to build the Conduit and wreck the plan. And the Citadel's defenses were all obliterated by Sovereign; the C-SEC people on the inside whom Saren killed would be of no concern either. Saren needed to be in the Council Chamber to override the Keepers, and when Vigil's lockout stopped that, the plan was screwed. Thus, Sovereign needed to possess Saren, thus risking its own life, to kill Shepard and undo that. It failed and Sovereign was killed as well.

Well, then we'll have to just accept that the Council has done far more unspeakable horrors than Cerberus can ever dream t, then.

That's kind of like saying that the nation of England has done far more unspeakable horrors than the Third Reich. It's technically true but completely ignores the idea of proportion.

There is a lot of trust and faith here.

A lot of something. But is it faith in Shepard as a person? Or something else altogether?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 31 octobre 2011 - 09:56 .