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Brotherhood of Cerberus - The Illusive Man Discussion/Support Thread

Débuté par Lambda Faction , juil. 09 2011 10:26

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#3851
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Posté 08 novembre 2011 - 01:53

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I don't know what TIM is supposed to be anymore. I've read the leaked thing, and I'm royally confused. The matter is, I've learned almost nothing new. I still don't know why Cerberus is the antagonist, even though TIM states his goals. But now their actions are driven home, because they're really, really zealous about what they're doing. As if they just want to be contradictory, and, well, evil for the sake of it. For the sake of Shepard having someone to oppose to.

How are the writers going to connect TIM's goals to his actions in any plausible way? Well, aside from indoctrination, of course, which is basically "screw the logic and the characterization, we have to accommodate the plot" magical writing device. Are they going to deploy that? It doesn't look like that.

There isn't much communication with TIM thankfully, looks like it hasn't been written at that point yet, wonder how much of what we've seen is subject to change.

There hasn't been much explanation of Cerberus mystery. And by that, I mean that there hasn't been any explanation, really. I really wonder how good it's going to be. I don't like what I've seen.

40 percent of the enemy, if not for Cerberus, Shepard would've breezed through the game and defeated the Reapers with ease and little to no opposition. Cerberus' behaviour and motivations is the pivotal plotline. Everything hinges on it. They better have a very good reason for every single one of their actions. If the center doesn't hold, the story will fall apart. And I won't be able to stop it from falling apart in my playthrough. There's a limit to what I can suspend.

I'm still hoping to see the writers to pull the miracle and resolve that in a believable way. Some kind of great revelation, an incredible plot twist, something both surprising and making perfect sense at the same time. Because the setup is really challenging, and it's making me all anticipating. It would take a writing grandmaster to meet this challenge.

Do they pick up the gauntlet and emerge victorious, do they throw in the towel and take the indoctrination route, do they fail spectaculously and don't offer any explanations?

Modifié par laecraft, 08 novembre 2011 - 02:02 .

#3852
Dean_the_Young
Posté 08 novembre 2011 - 01:57

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I'll differ from most cynics here.

If you like Mass Effect for the Renegade/Cerberus aspects, yes it's almost certainly going to be a disappointment. The traditional Bioware weakness with 'rational-evil' comes through, and Cerberus has been more or less schizophrenic across the franchise.

Besides from that, though, the rest of the game is shaping up to be a treat. The ME2 cameo concepts make sense and have excellent potential, being tasteful and appropriate. There are some promising dilemmas, and enticing experiences. Some of the potential companion deaths also have a good feel to them, and Bioware obviously is approaching a good zone in regards to squad deaths, avoiding senseless deaths but also avoiding rainbows-and-unicorns.

Now, if it weren't for the other 40% of the combat...


I mean, it's not like we have an entire made-to-hate race of Human-type people who would be justified in hating the Alliance enough to make a stupid alliance and get indoctrinated themselves. No, Batarian Hegemony, you go be relegated to your two minor sidequests.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 08 novembre 2011 - 02:00 .

#3853
Dean_the_Young
Posté 08 novembre 2011 - 02:11

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Oh, and I'll add that nearly all the sidequests make a reasonable sort of sense. And sound wicked sweet. And actually do tie in to the war effort in various ways.

#3854
Ravensword
Posté 08 novembre 2011 - 02:12

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What's happened to the OP?

#3855
Sebby
Posté 08 novembre 2011 - 02:27

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'll differ from most cynics here.

If you like Mass Effect for the Renegade/Cerberus aspects, yes it's almost certainly going to be a disappointment. The traditional Bioware weakness with 'rational-evil' comes through, and Cerberus has been more or less schizophrenic across the franchise.

Besides from that, though, the rest of the game is shaping up to be a treat. The ME2 cameo concepts make sense and have excellent potential, being tasteful and appropriate. There are some promising dilemmas, and enticing experiences. Some of the potential companion deaths also have a good feel to them, and Bioware obviously is approaching a good zone in regards to squad deaths, avoiding senseless deaths but also avoiding rainbows-and-unicorns.

Now, if it weren't for the other 40% of the combat...


I mean, it's not like we have an entire made-to-hate race of Human-type people who would be justified in hating the Alliance enough to make a stupid alliance and get indoctrinated themselves. No, Batarian Hegemony, you go be relegated to your two minor sidequests.


That's what I was expecting before the first news of ME3 came out since that was the major implication of the end of Arrival. Sadly in retrospect the only point of that DLC was to have Shepard start at Earth. :(

#3856
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Posté 08 novembre 2011 - 02:37

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By now, I don't care about roleplaying anymore, I gave up on the hope of being pro-Cerberus, I'm not looking forward to have my Renegade urges satisfied. What I'm interested in is the story.

I don't care much about characters' cameos and local dilemmas, that's not where the true writing challenge lies. I don't care much about LIs either, whatever they're going to be, it's unlikely romances are tightly interwoven with the story and influence it in any significant way. Characters' death might move me for a moment, but that's not what really moves me. I want to see the breathtaking story arc. This better be a wild ride, with plenty of surprises, twists, and revelations. Otherwise my narrative needs won't be fully satisfied. Alas, I have become too jaded.

I want a strong antagonist. By "strong", I mean crystal clear motivations for everything they're doing. "Because I'm evil" isn't acceptable. "You don't know why, you just have to fight me" is slightly better, but the reason has to be given at the end.

Why TIM is working against Shepard and how he's planning to meet his goals by doing what he's doing (and why Shepard is working against him) is the only thing that truly interests me at this point, because it's so challenging, and it has all the potential to be complex, deep and breathtaking. The only other interesting, challenging disposition is VS and Horizon issue, and why VS is going to work with Shepard. (And why Shepard is going to work with them.)

I am 50 percent sure they're going to explain Cerberus mystery. They just haven't done that in those files I've read. We'll have to wait.

If the antagonist is not excellent in every single aspect (powerful motives for their every single step), the entire story is going to be soured for me. How am I going to enjoy it if the fictional construct isn't real enough for me to step in?

#3857
Sebby
Posté 08 novembre 2011 - 02:42

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Saphra Deden wrote...

laecraft wrote...

I just want to see TIM once again, before ME and me are separated.


Then watch him on Youtube but for godsake don't give them any of your money.

TIM in ME3 seems to be a mixed bag depending your alignment.


Indeed, I just cancelled my pre-order and am going to order Killzone 1 and 2 instead.

I pray to Jubileus that TOR bombs hard so that BW gets disbanded and delivers a crippling blow against EA.

#3858
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Posté 08 novembre 2011 - 02:48

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'll differ from most cynics here.

If you like Mass Effect for the Renegade/Cerberus aspects, yes it's almost certainly going to be a disappointment. The traditional Bioware weakness with 'rational-evil' comes through, and Cerberus has been more or less schizophrenic across the franchise.

Besides from that, though, the rest of the game is shaping up to be a treat. The ME2 cameo concepts make sense and have excellent potential, being tasteful and appropriate. There are some promising dilemmas, and enticing experiences. Some of the potential companion deaths also have a good feel to them, and Bioware obviously is approaching a good zone in regards to squad deaths, avoiding senseless deaths but also avoiding rainbows-and-unicorns.

Now, if it weren't for the other 40% of the combat...


I mean, it's not like we have an entire made-to-hate race of Human-type people who would be justified in hating the Alliance enough to make a stupid alliance and get indoctrinated themselves. No, Batarian Hegemony, you go be relegated to your two minor sidequests.


Aside from the core, you mean. It's not even about being pro-Cerberus. If the antagonist's actions aren't making sense, building the rest of the story is like trying to decorate the tree in the absence of the tree. Those glass balls are beautiful, but without anything to hold them up they fall to the floor and shatter.

Hopefully come ME3 release they make sure there's a tree.

I'm not optimistic by now, but I'm still very, very curious to see how badly that can go.

Modifié par laecraft, 08 novembre 2011 - 02:53 .

#3859
Ravensword
Posté 08 novembre 2011 - 03:11

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I'm sorry for how this has turned out.

#3860
Sebby
Posté 08 novembre 2011 - 03:32

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Ravensword wrote...

I'm sorry for how this has turned out.


It's a great tragedy no doubt.

#3861
Xilizhra
Posté 08 novembre 2011 - 03:41

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Seboist wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

I'm sorry for how this has turned out.


It's a great tragedy no doubt.

An entirely self-made one on your part.

#3862
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Posté 08 novembre 2011 - 03:44

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Xilizhra wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

I'm sorry for how this has turned out.


It's a great tragedy no doubt.

An entirely self-made one on your part.


Seboist is a developer? Wow.

#3863
Kaiser Shepard
Posté 08 novembre 2011 - 03:45

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I shouldn't even care about this, as I've never really sided with TIM. Fact of the matter however remains that we were promised choices that would affect stuff, and Bioware fails to deliver on that. And I'm not paying full price for what I consider to be half an RPG.

It's sad really, as ME3 seems to be shaping up to become quite the third-person shooter, which I would like if that's what it was meant to be. At this point, the multiplayer does indeed look like the most convincing argument for me to get the game, and that says a lot about a series I entered mainly for its story. Now, if this team's next game would be a straight-on Gears clone, I have no doubt that they'll be able to pull it rather well.

As for now, I have already written off the other team after DA2, an MMO isn't exactly my cup of tea and the only BioWare team of which I'm curious as what exactly they're doing is the Montreal branch. And that's only because there's little known about their other project.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 08 novembre 2011 - 03:45 .

#3864
Sebby
Posté 08 novembre 2011 - 03:51

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

I'm sorry for how this has turned out.


It's a great tragedy no doubt.

An entirely self-made one on your part.


Seboist is a developer? Wow.


Shhhh, I'm working on adding the TIM romance into the game.

#3865
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Posté 08 novembre 2011 - 03:57

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laecraft wrote...

40 percent of the enemy, if not for Cerberus, Shepard would've breezed through the game and defeated the Reapers with ease and little to no opposition. Cerberus' behaviour and motivations is the pivotal plotline. Everything hinges on it. They better have a very good reason for every single one of their actions. If the center doesn't hold, the story will fall apart. And I won't be able to stop it from falling apart in my playthrough. There's a limit to what I can suspend.

I'm still hoping to see the writers to pull the miracle and resolve that in a believable way. Some kind of great revelation, an incredible plot twist, something both surprising and making perfect sense at the same time. Because the setup is really challenging, and it's making me all anticipating. It would take a writing grandmaster to meet this challenge.

They need to invalidate most or all of ME2 in some sort of great conspiracy theory reveal, Dan Brown style.

Maybe they should have hired Zulu to write it. Some of his ideas (e.g. Legion is Wilson) would work wonders right now.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 08 novembre 2011 - 03:58 .

#3866
Sebby
Posté 08 novembre 2011 - 04:08

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Did Zulu seriously say Legion is Wilson?

#3867
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Posté 08 novembre 2011 - 04:11

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Seboist wrote...

Did Zulu seriously say Legion is Wilson?

He did say that, eloquently and vehemently. Whether he's serious or not he only knows.

#3868
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Posté 08 novembre 2011 - 04:16

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Did Zulu seriously say Legion is Wilson?

He did say that, eloquently and vehemently. Whether he's serious or not he only knows.


That would make more sense than what Cerberus is doing in ME3. It's a sad feeling when the entire fictional universe simply dissolves. I was engaged in this for a while. I could overlook what happened to VS and Liara, but TIM is central to the story, and it's hard to overlook when an antagonist is acting...odd.

#3869
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Posté 08 novembre 2011 - 04:24

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laecraft wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Did Zulu seriously say Legion is Wilson?

He did say that, eloquently and vehemently. Whether he's serious or not he only knows.

That would make more sense than what Cerberus is doing in ME3. It's a sad feeling when the entire fictional universe simply dissolves. I was engaged in this for a while. I could overlook what happened to VS and Liara, but TIM is central to the story, and it's hard to overlook when an antagonist is acting...odd.

What I'm trying to say is, if Zulu can make it sound reasonable that Legion is Wilson (he has quite a convincing argument going on, and that's one of his more believable/less shocking theories IMO), then any and every kind of plot twist should be possible for ME3.

It's just dreadful if that kind of plot twist potential goes wasted, like in that pathetic drab of a plot from the "leaked beta".

#3870
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Posté 08 novembre 2011 - 04:28

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Seboist wrote...

It's a great tragedy no doubt.


Yeah, I'm in mourning. Let us remember TIM. *in Mordin's voice* Pointless waste of potential. How great this could have been.

Honestly I don't understand why they simply didn't replace him with an entirely different character if they were not up to the challenge and simply wanted a human antagonist who was an evil incarnate to oppose Shepard in ME3.

Possibly to please the majority of the fanbase. They won't ask questions nor demand plausible motives and reasonable behavior nor consistent characterizations as long as they're getting what they want, and many people fervently want to shoot the evil Cerberus. Burn the witch! Kill the terrorists, show the rest of the galaxy that we're good.

Well, they're getting what they want on a silver plate. Cerberus is now evil incarnate. Why? How is that conducive to their goals? Who cares? They're evil, look at all those atricities they're committing! Shoot them and get to the next mission, don't think too much about it. You have your squad LI the galaxy to save.

Bioware is like ExoGeni. You can't recycle us!

Modifié par laecraft, 08 novembre 2011 - 04:36 .

#3871
Sebby
Posté 08 novembre 2011 - 06:09

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Uncle TIM wants us to enlist

Posted Image

Link

#3872
GodWood
Posté 08 novembre 2011 - 06:24

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Cool.

Although I'd prefer something more along the lines of this.

Posted Image

If they're going to be labeled as space nazis might as well embrace it.

#3873
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Posté 08 novembre 2011 - 06:35

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Seboist wrote...

Uncle TIM wants us to enlist

*awesome poster snip*


I already am. I'm just a double agent deep undercover. My goal is to follow through with the entire Alliance agenda and to save TIM and the Earth at the end. Using whatever means necessary.

(I'm so deep undercover that even TIM himself doesn't know that I'm on his side. Shepard is a sleeper agent, and I'm his alter-ego ready to take over when the moment is right.)

If I were working with Cerberus openly, I'd be a Phantom.

Modifié par laecraft, 08 novembre 2011 - 06:54 .

#3874
dreman9999
Posté 08 novembre 2011 - 07:19

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Seboist wrote...

By the sound of things it looks like ME3's plot is even worse than Ninja Gaiden 2's.... I didn't think such a thing was possible.

It's not that it's bad, per see. It's very much in the mold of your typical Mass Effect game.

It's just that Mass Effect in general, and Bioware in particular, struggles to put evil in any sort of plausible context. The summary (and again, it's just a pre-lim summary) treats Cerberus pretty much like ME1 treated Cerberus: 'here are bad people doing horrible things for little or no reason.'  The only non-tactical Cerberus motivation given throughout the entire outline is TIM's own... which is actually pretty good, but doesn't cover most of the Cerberus activities.

It also struggles a bit with scope and scale considerations, but Mass Effect has always struggled with that.

It's going to be a good game. Cerberus is just woefully under-characterized into generic villainy.

Maybe...Just maybe....The script is not complete on that part.  They did say it's out dated and uncomplete,  sogetting worry about a incomplete script is illogical.

#3875
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 08 novembre 2011 - 07:26

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I won't hold my breath. There's too much there for them to just scrap everything.

Hilarious how now Cerberus is doing exactly what the Collectors were doing. Why didn't just help the Collectors? Why did they bring back Shepard?
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