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[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Now on top of Cerberus, we also have Udina being turned into a comic book villain and Charles Saracino who practically puts on a white robe and leads a klan rally on the citadel. Din Korlack too is turned into a convenient enemy.

How are those last two surprising? Saracino was a one-note douchebag, not a major character with any possible development to worry about; ditto for Korlack, and the fact that he seems to hate everyone with an emphasis on humans might actually give you anti-human villains as well. Why would you care about Korlack, anyway?

How was Korlack a douchebag? He was bitter and cynical, but it's not like he went out of his way to make anyone miserable. Nor did he have any suggested emphasis on Humans not based on context: he was talking to Shepard, and Humanity is less about Humanity itself and more about the Council's treatment of them.

Korlack was interesting because he served as a good foil and contrast between the utopian, enlightened image the Council tries to give off with its actual treatment of the Associate species.

[Sjaddix]

Yeah its clear bioware went for the grab bag of standard tropes. Not creative at all from what I read.

[GodWood]

Dave of Canada wrote...
It's a little more than just capture (can't go into detail) but Shepard escapes because TIM's speech takes too long.

[Sjaddix]

Also really whats wrong with shades of grey but no everyone has to be converted into either evil or good. No middle ground.

[Sjaddix]

Not just evil. U are now suddenly a hard right human extremist or u are indoctrinated having an opposing a viewpoint is now a death sentence. Seriously, all the common tropes are in use.

[Sjaddix]

Right, Udina is a douche but its not like he was not doing what he thought was good for humanity and he was not crossing any major lines. Also I hear Shepard escapes from T.I.M. because the illusive man did not read his Villain Checklist or watch the Incredibles in order to learn u don't monologue like an idiot.

[Dave of Canada]

Just read everything Renegade and it does seem to hold up to the description of "fail", it punishes the player for everything.

[Lord_Valandil]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Just read everything Renegade and it does seem to hold up to the description of "fail", it punishes the player for everything.

That was kind of expected, don't you agree?

[Sjaddix]

Of course it does. Bioware may say there is no canon but if u look at rewards and how plot protected some characters are u can get a good idea of it at least until bioware writes another book to lock stuff in.

[Dave of Canada]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Just read everything Renegade and it does seem to hold up to the description of "fail", it punishes the player for everything.

That was kind of expected, don't you agree?

Yes, though I hoped the writers were going to do something intelligent like balancing choices instead of making one side completely bad and the other completely super awesome.

[Sjaddix]

Nope Black and White, Shades of Grey is to complicated. It should come as no surprise though all the npcs who don't tow the Paragon line got turned into classic cliche villains so that should tell u right away where Bioware wants your character to be.

[Lord_Valandil]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Just read everything Renegade and it does seem to hold up to the description of "fail", it punishes the player for everything.

That was kind of expected, don't you agree?

Yes, though I hoped the writers were going to do something intelligent like balancing choices instead of making one side completely bad and the other completely super awesome.

I didn't let my hopes to get very high, as something was telling me this was bound to happen.
I still love Bio, and of course I want to play ME3, but sometimes I just cannot understand the design choices they make.

[Sjaddix]

Nope The Noble Hero of Light does not fail even once for he is righteous in the face of the evil.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'll throw in a oppositional take here for at least the Volus Ambassador, or some others:

Anyone else think we might get some deliberate false-accusations of ties to Cerberus and Indoctrination?

It'd make a convenient opportunity for the Council to bump off politicians who are too troublesome, simply by suggesting they're tied to Cerberus. Possibly plant some evidence, and ask useful-idiot Shepard to investigate...

[Sjaddix]

Oh I am sure no better opportunity. Now some guys like Anderson and Hackett are safe but u can definitely clean house. Its like the Witch Hunts of Old Europe except there are a few actual witches in the mix.

[Sebby]

They've even butchered the character of Gavin Archer, he loses his support for Project Overlord even if you keep David in it!

[Ultai]

Haven't read the spoilers yet, but now I don't care. If what is said is true....ugh. This just reinforces my hate of the paragon/renegade system, hell any binary morality. I'm no writer, but is it really that difficult to write a morally grey antagonist or choices that make a paragon player go "hmmm, I can see the antagonists point, I should stop day dreaming about murdering him because he doesn't agree with everything I say" We've seen the vitriol people have thrown at Ashley just for the mere crime of voicing her distrust of aliens, not hate, and the unforgivable crime of believing in something they don't, God (but it's ok for Thane, he's a cool alien).

There just doesn't seem to be any room for grey in extreme systems, which is why it shines in games where there isn't a meter to remind a player "You're doing a good job, soldier!"

Small rant there, but it still doesn't excuse the fact of, why only have one way to play the game, and label the other way failure. They should have just had auto dialogue from the start and no dialogue wheel at all.

I really liked this series, thought it was something special when I finished ME1 and was getting ready for ME2. Not the case anymore, and with that I cancel my preorder with a sigh.

Anyone mind linking me the spoiler links?

Modifié par Ultai, 11 novembre 2011 - 02:19 .

[Xilizhra]

If you aren't a likable an friendly person in Mass Effect then you are evil.

Ah, so the Council's been turned evil too? I must have missed that.

Why did they think that making the Renegade wrong in every choice was a good idea, that it was good game design? Don't we have the right to have fun too? I don't want Paragons screwed over all the time, maybe not even half the time. They can even come out on top but let me have a few victories. Knowing that my reasoning is sound is not quite enough when despite that I'm always getting screwed over.

I think it's because Mass Effect should never have had a karma meter in the first place. Its existence gives people the idea that all outcomes should be equal, whereas few people complained in Dragon Age about things like the Orzammar choice having a clearly superior outcome.

Korlack was interesting because he served as a good foil and contrast between the utopian, enlightened image the Council tries to give off with its actual treatment of the Associate species.

Well... one person's interpretation of it that gets constantly countered by the other guy in the same room.

Nope The Noble Hero of Light does not fail even once for he is righteous in the face of the evil.

I don't know, killing everyone on Aratoht counts as a fairly significant failure, or at least an incredibly high price of victory, whereas many Renegades wouldn't consider it such. Paragons have the potential to be more hurt by things.

They've even butchered the character of Gavin Archer, he loses his support for Project Overlord even if you keep David in it!

I don't think it was butchery; even in ME2, I saw that his confidence was wavering. He didn't seem to support Overlord out of genuine commitment to it so much as he was committing the Sunk Cost Fallacy, not wanting to give it up after everything he'd already sacrificed. He was obsessive, misguided and willfully blind, but I never felt malicious intent coming from him.

[Xilizhra]

and the unforgivable crime of believing in something they don't, God (but it's ok for Thane, he's a cool alien).

Thane's religion is made up and has no resonance with anyone as something they could be opposed to. A Christian alien wouldn't go over any better, and I for one found some of the hanar highly annoying in theirs.

[Xilizhra]

Regardless of any alignment meter why is Shepard always wrong for being pragmatic? If they just wanted this game to be "cliche space hero#12823" then they should have just scrapped the whole "choice" thing.

Every Paragon choice can be seen as pragmatic. Given that you approve of genocide and wanted to join the Reapers, I don't believe Bioware was particularly concerned with your interpretation of the word.

[Sebby]

ME3 is every bad fan ****** and troll that has come up on BSN rolled into one. Bioware is beyond the shadow of a doubt incompetent gutless hacks who compromise the integrity to fan pander.

An entire alignment rendered a joke, worthless choices and character butcherings but hey we have S/S romance! This game will be as AWESOME as DA2!