6970 réponses à ce sujet

[Sebby]

laecraft wrote...

TIM's thread lives, despite everything.

Seboist. <3

TIM lives in our hearts you know that Lae. <3

[GodWood]

Just read some more spoilers and honestly I simply can not fathom why Bioware thought having paragon choices always turn out better then the renegade ones was good game design.

It's not like we haven't been complaining about paragon favouritism for the past two years, so I doubt they were simply 'unaware' of the issue. They say they read the forums so they must have seen the numerous colossal threads arguing the various 'moral choices' with many passionate renegades justifying their views.

When I read these spoilers I feel as if the plot has been written by some trolly paragon with a clear anti-renegade/Cerberus agenda. It's seriously worse then I could have ever imagined.

Modifié par GodWood, 14 novembre 2011 - 10:52 .

[Sebby]

GodWood wrote...

Just read some more spoilers and honestly I simply can not fathom why Bioware thought having paragon choices always turn out better then the renegade ones was good game design.

It's not like we haven't been complaining about paragon favouritism for the past two years, so I doubt they were simply 'unaware' of the issue. They say they read the forums so they must have seen the numerous colossal threads arguing the various 'moral choices' with many passionate renegades justifying their views.

When I read these spoilers I feel as if the plot has been written by some trolly paragon with a clear anti-renegade/Cerberus agenda. It's seriously worse then I could have ever imagined.

Like I've said ME3 is an uber Paragon's wet dream come true.

[GodWood]

I never really thought Bioware could make me not want to buy the game. I was a massive ME1 fanboy and despite absolutely hating some of the design decisions in ME2 I still found it enjoyable enough. Plus I had already come this far, so I figured that I'd want to see how it ends.

But no, they've actually made me not want to buy it. Bravo.

[Sebby]

GodWood wrote...

I never really thought Bioware could make me not want to buy the game. I was a massive ME1 fanboy and despite absolutely hating some of the design decisions in ME2 I still found it enjoyable enough. Plus I had already come this far, so I figured that I'd want to see how it ends.

But no, they've actually made me not want to buy it. Bravo.

I didn't think there would come a day where I would consider Ninja Gaiden 3 to be a guaranteed purchase over ME3 but there you have it.  That's the game I'm getting this upcomming March.

I'll wait  and see if it's possible to save TIM and preserve Cerberus, if not Bioware can kiss my ass.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Seboist wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Just read some more spoilers and honestly I simply can not fathom why Bioware thought having paragon choices always turn out better then the renegade ones was good game design.

It's not like we haven't been complaining about paragon favouritism for the past two years, so I doubt they were simply 'unaware' of the issue. They say they read the forums so they must have seen the numerous colossal threads arguing the various 'moral choices' with many passionate renegades justifying their views.

When I read these spoilers I feel as if the plot has been written by some trolly paragon with a clear anti-renegade/Cerberus agenda. It's seriously worse then I could have ever imagined.

Like I've said ME3 is an uber Paragon's wet dream come true.

You'd really start to wonder whose bright idea it was to completely villify an entire faction you were able to side with in the previous game.

I mean, are they really that keen on avoiding having to live up to that promise of our choices having actual consequences that they'll just brush an entire path aside like it never existed? Now that's just weak, and not something I would've expected from Bioware.

Guess that's what we can expect from Bioware from now on: nothing, as neither Edmonton team seems able (or willing?) to create a half-decent rpg anymore.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 14 novembre 2011 - 11:15 .

[Sebby]

What gets me the most about Cerberus in ME3 is that the big implication from Arrival was that the Batarians were to be the big non-Reaper proxy enemy due to indoctrination or an actual alliance against humanity. Also, Arrival implied you could still be with Cerberus with Hackett not uttering the line of "I don't think is a Cerberus vessel anymore" if you kept the base.

It just shows they make sh!t up as they go along and fan pander.

[GodWood]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Guess that's what we can expect from Bioware from now on: nothing, as neither Edmonton team seems able (or willing?) to create a half-decent rpg anymore.

Speaking of the other team, I may be no fan of DA2 but at least it's writers defend their crappy writing and directly address the concerns of the community.

The ME team hasn't done that in years.

[Kaiser Shepard]

GodWood wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Guess that's what we can expect from Bioware from now on: nothing, as neither Edmonton team seems able (or willing?) to create a half-decent rpg anymore.

Speaking of the other team, I may be no fan of DA2 but at least it's writers defend their crappy writing and directly address the concerns of the community.

The ME team hasn't done that in years.

Neither team seems to be in touch with their respective community, so the difference ultimately is negligible.

Still, with the DA team you can be sure that the devs actually read why their last game was such a failure, which at least gives a feeling of satisfaction.

[Sebby]

The more I see how ME and DA have been handled the more I like Witcher and Deus Ex. Hell, I've gotten to better appreciate the old Final Fantasies as well.

[Ravensword]

laecraft wrote...

Same
here. It's good that someone shares my feelings. The majority of the
forums don't understand what a great tragedy it would be to lose TIM.
And if everything Cerberus ever strove for is devaluated...If everything
I ever believed in is torn apart slowly before my very eyes and
mocked...I would want no part in that. No, I'd want a different
universe. The galaxy without TIM and Cerberus isn't worth saving.

Enlighten me.

Modifié par Ravensword, 14 novembre 2011 - 03:08 .

[Xilizhra]

I mean, are they really that keen on avoiding having to live up to that promise of our choices having actual consequences that they'll just brush an entire path aside like it never existed? Now that's just weak, and not something I would've expected from Bioware.

Wait, what? Logically speaking, if choices had no consequences, the two paths would have the exact same results. If one is "better" than the other, it means that choices do have consequences.

What gets me the most about Cerberus in ME3 is that the big implication from Arrival was that the Batarians were to be the big non-Reaper proxy enemy due to indoctrination or an actual alliance against humanity.

How does that make sense? The destruction of the Alpha Relay meant that the Reapers were no longer going to be suddenly popping up in a batarian system, and in any case, the Hegemony is both heavily isolated and militarily weaker than the major powers of the Council. All they could provide is relatively weak brute force, which the Reapers are much better at. Cerberus possesses the espionage and technological aptitude to fill a different niche, spread spies around much more easily, and generally fill a role that the Reapers don't have on their own.

Same here. It's good that someone shares my feelings. The majority of the forums don't understand what a great tragedy it would be to lose TIM. And if everything Cerberus ever strove for is devaluated...If everything I ever believed in is torn apart slowly before my very eyes and mocked...I would want no part in that. No, I'd want a different universe. The galaxy without TIM and Cerberus isn't worth saving.

Nothing that Cerberus said it strove for is being devalued. You can still live up to what you thought were Cerberus' ideals even while the organization betrays them (I don't believe it had any ideals to begin with, of course).

[Ravensword]

Cerberus was going to betray Shepard any way. It would've been interesting if this would've been done towards the end of the first act in ME3 for those players that chose to keep the CB.

[Sebby]

Ravensword wrote...

Cerberus was going to betray Shepard any way. It would've been interesting if this would've been done towards the end of the first act in ME3 for those players that chose to keep the CB.

Sure because "uber linear story lol". I've read the docs and there's literally no reason why Renshep can't have called TIM and said "Hey man, what's up? What's the plan?".

[Xilizhra]

Presumably, that'll show up in the actual finished game.

[Ravensword]

Seboist wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

Cerberus was going to betray Shepard any way. It would've been interesting if this would've been done towards the end of the first act in ME3 for those players that chose to keep the CB.

Sure because "uber linear story lol". I've read the docs and there's literally no reason why Renshep can't have called TIM and said "Hey man, what's up? What's the plan?".

"The plan is for you to be a martyr. Henchmen, attack Shepard!", replied TIM.

Modifié par Ravensword, 14 novembre 2011 - 03:18 .

[John Renegade]

What seems the worst is that in the files I couldn't find one, one choice, in which renegade came off better than paragon. At the very best it's equal and at the same time neutral (that is both outcomes have been basically ignored). But most of the time, either paragon gains something and renegade is neutral or renegade loses something and paragon is neutral. Then there are also "uber" versions of those like the Balak decision, where renegade is punished (he had to let Balak kill three people in ME1) and paragon gets BETTER REINFORCEMENTS. (If what other posters say is true. I haven't seen those lines, because I wasn't particularly looking for them - those files are HUGE.)

And I stress again, I couldn't find even one moment, where renegade got better off than paragon.

@ Xil: You seem to think that all paragon and all renegade choices are somewhat connected, that is that when one is bad, the others must be as well. That is rubbish. Paragon and renegade are arbitrary divisions. They don't really exist in-universe. There are only individual choices (in fact a lot of us don't care as much about morality scores, but more about those individual choices. It's just that some of us are more ruthless, thus having most of our choices turning "renegade" and for that calling ourselves "renegades".) But now really, renegades make those choices because they... well... work in a real world. Not always, but most of the time. But the main point is that they do work. "Paragon" decisions in real life also sometimes pay off. But in-game renegade choices never pay off, while paragon choices always pay off. Now, Mass Effect is supposed to have "realistic" choices.

Do you see now, why are we so pissed off?


P.S.:

*SPOILER*


Oh did I forget to mention that when you send David to Grissom academy, you meet him later healthy and alive while when you leave him hooked up to potentially save millions of lives from the geth, he "loses the will to live" and dies some time after?

What an ambivalent choice.

Modifié par John Renegade, 14 novembre 2011 - 04:05 .

[Xilizhra]

And I stress again, I couldn't find even one moment, where renegade got better off than paragon.

It sounds like that would be by Paragon standards. For instance, it seems to me like for Renegades, killing Balak would be its own reward.

But now really, renegades make those choices because they... well... [i]work[i] in a real world. Not always, but most of the time. But the main point is that they do work. "Paragon" decisions in real life also sometimes pay off. But in-game renegade choices never pay off, while paragon choices always pay off. Now, Mass Effect is supposed to have "realistic" choices.

Actually, the vast majority of the time, Shepard takes Renegade-flavored actions. Most foes can't be negotiated with and just need to be killed, someone always has to die on Virmire, the Arrival thing... Paragon decisions to actually save/help people are, in the grand scheme of things, few and far between.

Oh did I forget to mention, that when you send David to Grissom academy, you meet him later healthy and alive, while when you leave him hooked up to potentially save millions of lives from the geth, he "loses the will to live" and dies some time after?

What an ambivalent choice.

Yes, because that's so very hard to see coming from ten thousand miles away.

[Sebby]

Here's the exact lines that Balak's replacement says:

"When you killed him in the sky over Terra Nova, you threw our external operations into chaos."
"When you arrested him at Terra Nova, you threw our external operations into chaos."

"The Reapers annihilated us, and most of our people have been transformed into... monstrosities."

"Our few remaining warships have resorted to petty piracy, while I steal scraps for refugees."

Whereas if Balak is alive he becomes the highest ranking remaining Batarian military official with an implied stronger military and he gives you a bunch of informaiton on the Leviathan of Dis and how the Reapers defeated the defences of Kar'Shan. So not only do Renegades get a weaker ally but less information!

Swear to god, Renegade decisions backfire for the most contrived reasons imaginable.

Modifié par Seboist, 14 novembre 2011 - 04:13 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xil's concept of Paragon and Renegade, once again, amazes me in it's selective application to her own benefit.

[Ravensword]

John Renegade wrote...
*SPOILER*


Oh did I forget to mention that when you send David to Grissom academy, you meet him later healthy and alive while when you leave him hooked up to potentially save millions of lives from the geth, he "loses the will to live" and dies some time after?

What an ambivalent choice.

To quote Sphra Deden, "METAGAMING!"

[Dean_the_Young]

What about Elnora the eclipse? How does that one turn out?

[Xilizhra]

Seboist wrote...

Here's the exact lines that Balak's replacement says:

"When you killed him in the sky over Terra Nova, you threw our external operations into chaos."
"When you arrested him at Terra Nova, you threw our external operations into chaos."

"The Reapers annihilated us, and most of our people have been transformed into... monstrosities."

"Our few remaining warships have resorted to petty piracy, while I steal scraps for refugees."

Whereas if Balak is alive he becomes the highest ranking remaining Batarian military official with an implied stronger military and he gives you a bunch of informaiton on the Leviathan of Dis and how the Reapers defeated the defences of Kar'Shan. So not only do Renegades get a weaker ally but less information!

Swear to god, Renegade decisions backfire for the most contrived reasons imaginable.

Actually, this kinda reminds me of the Bhelen vs. Harrowmont choice and how it might surprise people.
Though I'm surprised that Balak is in the batarian military after that... I must have misinterpreted some elements of BdtS. Oh well, it worked out anyway.