6970 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

BdtS was pretty heavy on the 'these people are almost certainly not official Hegemony policy.'

[Sebby]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

What about Elnora the eclipse? How does that one turn out?

She's not mentioned.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, because that's so very hard to see coming from ten thousand miles away.

Odd as it may be to you, people really don't have a 'suicide at lack of will' switch inside them. It's much easier to keep someone alive despite their desires than for someone to simply die.

[Xilizhra]

BdtS was pretty heavy on the 'these people are almost certainly not official Hegemony policy.'

True... maybe there was a government reorganization after Bahak was blown up.

Odd as it may be to you, people really don't have a 'suicide at lack of will' switch inside them. It's much easier to keep someone alive despite their desires than for someone to simply die.

Are you sure it didn't have to do with being constantly bombarded by geth language?

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

BdtS was pretty heavy on the 'these people are almost certainly not official Hegemony policy.'

True... maybe there was a government reorganization after Bahak was blown up.

Or Balak himself actually was Hegemony.

Odd as it may be to you, people really don't have a 'suicide at lack of will' switch inside them. It's much easier to keep someone alive despite their desires than for someone to simply die.

Are you sure it didn't have to do with being constantly bombarded by geth language?

Now you're moving on to 'talked to death', Xil?

That's even sillier.

[Xilizhra]

Or Balak himself actually was Hegemony.

Or that.

Now you're moving on to 'talked to death', Xil?

That's even sillier.

I'm trying to work with what I have. The actual game will probably explain it better.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Now you're moving on to 'talked to death', Xil?

That's even sillier.

I'm trying to work with what I have. The actual game will probably explain it better.

And yet apparently a ridiculous, nearly impossible thing happening was clear long before this.

Yeah, right. Keep shifting positions, Xil. I'm certain you'll make it reasonable soon enough.

[Sebby]

Like Kaiser said the Balak thing is just the tip of the iceberg. There's also the Krogans pulling a space fleet out of their asses even though the lore clearly stated the Council... whatever authority in orbit over Tuchanka has prevented them from building one for countless years.

Then we have the kumbaya ending with the Quarians and Geth... which is actually unintentionally creepy in the way that it's handled. Let's just say they get a bit too close for comfort....

[John Renegade]

You see Xil, renegade or paragon choices in which you cannot choose are not choices. They are simply a narrative which railroads you into having to do something, or makes something happen independent on your (player's) will. It's the polar opposite of choice. Plus moments when Shepard shoots somebody without our explicit volition are very rare. Though they may happen, don't forget that there is also a lot of paragon railroading (e.g. Cerberus).

[Xilizhra]

Like Kaiser said the Balak thing is just the tip of the iceberg. There's also the Krogans pulling a space fleet out of their asses even though the lore clearly stated the Council... whatever authority in orbit over Tuchanka has prevented them from building one for countless years.

Certainly it'll be interesting to see where they got it.

Then we have the kumbaya ending with the Quarians and Geth... which is actually unintentionally creepy in the way that it's handled. Let's just say they get a bit too close for comfort....

Hah. So pragmatic...

You see Xil, renegade or paragon choices in which you cannot choose are not choices. They are simply a narrative which railroads you into having to do something, or makes something happen independent on your (player's) will. It's the polar opposite of choice. Plus moments when Shepard shoots somebody without our explicit volition are very rare. Though they may happen, don't forget that there is also a lot of paragon railroading (e.g. Cerberus).

Every action Shepard undertakes is a choice in the universe. Choices that the player can make are rarer, but it's not just player choice that makes the universe. And Cerberus attacks Shepard; I don't believe that really counts as railroading.

[John Renegade]

Xilizhra wrote...

You see Xil, renegade or paragon choices in which you cannot choose are not choices. They are simply a narrative which railroads you into having to do something, or makes something happen independent on your (player's) will. It's the polar opposite of choice. Plus moments when Shepard shoots somebody without our explicit volition are very rare. Though they may happen, don't forget that there is also a lot of paragon railroading (e.g. Cerberus).

Every action Shepard undertakes is a choice in the universe. Choices that the player can make are rarer, but it's not just player choice that makes the universe. And Cerberus attacks Shepard; I don't believe that really counts as railroading.

Than you don't understand in what was Mass Effect supposed to be better than other games. It's player's choices. Even in Halo Master Chief makes choices. In Modern Warfare Soap and Price make choices,... do I really need to continue?

Modifié par John Renegade, 14 novembre 2011 - 04:54 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Seboist wrote...

Here's the exact lines that Balak's replacement says:

"When you killed him in the sky over Terra Nova, you threw our external operations into chaos."
"When you arrested him at Terra Nova, you threw our external operations into chaos."

"The Reapers annihilated us, and most of our people have been transformed into... monstrosities."

"Our few remaining warships have resorted to petty piracy, while I steal scraps for refugees."

Whereas if Balak is alive he becomes the highest ranking remaining Batarian military official with an implied stronger military and he gives you a bunch of informaiton on the Leviathan of Dis and how the Reapers defeated the defences of Kar'Shan. So not only do Renegades get a weaker ally but less information!

Swear to god, Renegade decisions backfire for the most contrived reasons imaginable.

Good lord. The sheer amount of contrived writing that goes on in these lines are staggering.

[Xilizhra]

John Renegade wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You see Xil, renegade or paragon choices in which you cannot choose are not choices. They are simply a narrative which railroads you into having to do something, or makes something happen independent on your (player's) will. It's the polar opposite of choice. Plus moments when Shepard shoots somebody without our explicit volition are very rare. Though they may happen, don't forget that there is also a lot of paragon railroading (e.g. Cerberus).

Every action Shepard undertakes is a choice in the universe. Choices that the player can make are rarer, but it's not just player choice that makes the universe. And Cerberus attacks Shepard; I don't believe that really counts as railroading.

Than you don't understand in what was Mass Effect supposed to be better than other games. It's player's choices. Even in Halo Master Chief makes choices. In Modern Warfare Soap and Price make choices,... do I really need to continue?

But given the differences between outcomes, your choices clearly often do matter.

[Bad King]

Lizardviking wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Here's the exact lines that Balak's replacement says:

"When you killed him in the sky over Terra Nova, you threw our external operations into chaos."
"When you arrested him at Terra Nova, you threw our external operations into chaos."

"The Reapers annihilated us, and most of our people have been transformed into... monstrosities."

"Our few remaining warships have resorted to petty piracy, while I steal scraps for refugees."

Whereas if Balak is alive he becomes the highest ranking remaining Batarian military official with an implied stronger military and he gives you a bunch of informaiton on the Leviathan of Dis and how the Reapers defeated the defences of Kar'Shan. So not only do Renegades get a weaker ally but less information!

Swear to god, Renegade decisions backfire for the most contrived reasons imaginable.

Good lord. The sheer amount of contrived writing that goes on in these lines are staggering.

Agreed, how the hell does the arrest of one terrorist throw the external operations of a government spanning many systems into chaos?

[John Renegade]

Xilizhra wrote...

John Renegade wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You see Xil, renegade or paragon choices in which you cannot choose are not choices. They are simply a narrative which railroads you into having to do something, or makes something happen independent on your (player's) will. It's the polar opposite of choice. Plus moments when Shepard shoots somebody without our explicit volition are very rare. Though they may happen, don't forget that there is also a lot of paragon railroading (e.g. Cerberus).

Every action Shepard undertakes is a choice in the universe. Choices that the player can make are rarer, but it's not just player choice that makes the universe. And Cerberus attacks Shepard; I don't believe that really counts as railroading.

Than you don't understand in what was Mass Effect supposed to be better than other games. It's player's choices. Even in Halo Master Chief makes choices. In Modern Warfare Soap and Price make choices,... do I really need to continue?

But given the differences between outcomes, your choices clearly often do matter.

I wish they would. But the differences seem to be only cosmetic (and/or favoritizing particular way of playing). The choices were supposed to matter, the universe was supposed to be shaped by your morality, whatever your particular morality was...

Modifié par John Renegade, 14 novembre 2011 - 05:07 .

[Xilizhra]

The universe is shaped by your morality. If you're Renegade, it's dark and unpleasant; if Paragon, less so.

[John Renegade]

Xilizhra wrote...

The universe is shaped by your morality. If you're Renegade, it's dark and unpleasant; if Paragon, less so.

If you're renegade you're being SCREWED OVER.

This has been covered in my earlier post. No need to talk in circles.

[Bad King]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

What about Elnora the eclipse? How does that one turn out?

Looking at the writing at the moment, I wouldn't be surprised if she became leader of the combined Asari republics and focussed on building up the fleet to a massive size, whereas if you killed her the asari fleet is thrown into confusion and destroyed.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Bad King wrote...
Agreed, how the hell does the arrest of one terrorist throw the external operations of a government spanning many systems into chaos?

Worse. The Batarians had 2-3 years to find a replacement. Balak did not really seem that much of an awe-inspering leader that would be hard to replace.

[Dean_the_Young]

Lizardviking wrote...

Bad King wrote...
Agreed, how the hell does the arrest of one terrorist throw the external operations of a government spanning many systems into chaos?

Worse. The Batarians had 2-3 years to find a replacement. Balak did not really seem that much of an awe-inspering leader that would be hard to replace.

Did you steal that description from Xil?

Becaus Xil used to make that exact defense as to why Balak wouldn't be a threat if let go: that he was too incompetent as a leader.

[Xilizhra]

I do admit to being totally surprised by this outcome.

[Bad King]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Bad King wrote...
Agreed, how the hell does the arrest of one terrorist throw the external operations of a government spanning many systems into chaos?

Worse. The Batarians had 2-3 years to find a replacement. Balak did not really seem that much of an awe-inspering leader that would be hard to replace.

Did you steal that description from Xil?

Becaus Xil used to make that exact defense as to why Balak wouldn't be a threat if let go: that he was too incompetent as a leader.

I actually thought he was quite an effective leader- a lot of the batarians didn't want to drop the asteroid on Terra Nova and yet they all fell in line behind Balak which implies that he was very intimidating. But that doesn't change the fact that he was just a terrorist- he himself claimed that he wasn't anything too unusual and that there were thousands more like him.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Bad King wrote...
Agreed, how the hell does the arrest of one terrorist throw the external operations of a government spanning many systems into chaos?

Worse. The Batarians had 2-3 years to find a replacement. Balak did not really seem that much of an awe-inspering leader that would be hard to replace.

Did you steal that description from Xil?

Becaus Xil used to make that exact defense as to why Balak wouldn't be a threat if let go: that he was too incompetent as a leader.

Really? Quite a coincidence.

I am not saying that Balak is incompetent. What he managed to do still takes some amount skill. It is just that I never saw him as a legendary leader that if lost, would devestate the Batarian hegonomy.

And remember. They had 2-3 years to replace him, AND FAILED.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 14 novembre 2011 - 05:55 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, this kinda reminds me of the Bhelen vs. Harrowmont choice and how it might surprise people.

The Bhelen choice was the victory of pragmatism versus noble rhetoric, and it fit with the foreshadowing (that Bhelen promissed effectiveness, while Harrowmont was the preservation of the inept status quo).

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 14 novembre 2011 - 06:26 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

The universe is shaped by your morality. If you're Renegade, it's dark and unpleasant; if Paragon, less so.

If that's your definition of Paragon and Renegade, that's even more simplistic than I had ever thought you'd go.