6970 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Quick question, laecraft: given that my children, if any, will be asari, would you respect me more for siding with them outright than whatever my current status is?

[Nightwriter]

The P/R system is out of place in the Mass Effect universe, period.

[Xilizhra]

I think I finally pinned down what's that about P/R system that's bothering me so much. Both paths were never intended to be equal. The very purpose of the Renegade path is to make Paragons look good in comparison. It's here to make Paragons feel like they've accomplished something. It's not here for anyone to take it. It's here for Paragons to point to Renegade and say, "Hey, I might have failed to prepare the galaxy to the invasion and I might suck at saving humanity who are right now being harvested, but at least I'm not that jerk!"

If Renegade options were in fact strawmen to make Paragon choices look better, why would anyone take them in the first place? Wouldn't they be sufficiently unappealing for that to not be the case?

I don't mind the linearity, as long as it's clearly and honestly stated. But it's the second part that's making me angry. Ego boost at the expense of someone else. Wanting desperately someone else be bad, just so you look good in comparison, because otherwise, your character has no worth on his own.

This makes no sense. Paragon choices have plenty of worth on their own. Possibly they screwed up on the implementation, but there'd be no reason to include choice only to be deceptive.

[BlueMagitek]

Here I was having a perfectly fine discussion on CHIM, every time I try to get away this topic drags me back in!

I don't believe that the P/R system exists only to stroke the Paragon's ego. Especially in ME 1, both paths were viable, with some questionable choices on both sides. This was lost to an extent in ME2, where a red or blue shade would fix whatever problem you're on regardless of your path. From what I've heard of the ME 3 spoilers (trying to avoid them), this kind of completely goes out the window.

So it's more loss of focus than intentionally designed to mess with you.

[XzorshTheConqueror]

I'm hoping that the leaked plot was just a big decoy. I mean the whole Balak thing makes the script seem like a Bioware self-parody.

/fingers crossed

I'll still buy the game anyway, even if it won't let me take over and reform Cerberus (yay Paragon Cerberus ;p), and instead forces me into the false renegade xenophobe/paragon xenophile paradigm. I've put too much time into Mass Effect to see my Shepard's story remain unresolved.

[Sebby]

XzorshTheConqueror wrote...

I'm hoping that the leaked plot was just a big decoy. I mean the whole Balak thing makes the script seem like a Bioware self-parody.

/fingers crossed

I'll still buy the game anyway, even if it won't let me take over and reform Cerberus (yay Paragon Cerberus ;p), and instead forces me into the false renegade xenophobe/paragon xenophile paradigm. I've put too much time into Mass Effect to see my Shepard's story remain unresolved.

The whole script is full of such politically correct feel good tripe that it makes Star Wars look like a mature adult story with socio-political depth and greynesss.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Bad King wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

What about Elnora the eclipse? How does that one turn out?

Looking at the writing at the moment, I wouldn't be surprised if she became leader of the combined Asari republics and focussed on building up the fleet to a massive size, whereas if you killed her the asari fleet is thrown into confusion and destroyed.

She probably ends up running an orphanage that eventually gets destroyed by "FOR TEH EVULZ" Cerberus.

Seboist wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I don't want to see that, personally. There's not enough companies out there which do role-playing games, wanting to see them fail would simply harm my already scarce library. I'd simply want them to get their heads out of the sand, something which allows their bias to get the hell out and creating a game which everybody can enjoy.

I've still got hope for the Dragon Age franchise, at least they don't demonize players who go outside of the "lawful good" mold. That and Gaider loves bittersweet endings, something which I hope he'll abuse forever.

Meh, DA's story failed to captivate me for a second. I mainly played through DA:O for the few interesting characters like Morrigan,Alistair,Leliana,etc. It's the same kind of black and white ancient evil nonsense as ME, speaking of which the biggest disapointment I had with it is that the much hyped darkspawn mastermind turns out to be a Dragon and...... that's it. It had no more depth than a Ninja Gaiden end boss.

Then there's DA2.... and the less said about that game the better.

You didn't approach Origins as it should have been approached: the main story was the whole Fereldan Civil War Loghain initiated, which was ended one way or another during the Landsmeet. All the Blight ever was, was the circumstance that allowed the events of the game to happen, nothing more than a simple force of nature. The final battle with the Darkspawn and the Archdemon therefore shouldn't be seen as anything more than a glorified epilogue.

And that's the exact same thing that should have been done with ME3: the only fixed event to happen should be the final battle with the Reapers. Every conflict between or within the factions and races below the Reapers should have been able to be solved however the player desires, in whatever fashion the player desires.

Nightwriter wrote...

The P/R system is out of place in the Mass Effect universe, period.

Shouldn't you be gossiping about us behind our backs on your fancy little forum, instead of personally coming in here?

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 16 novembre 2011 - 10:04 .

[Sebby]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Here I was having a perfectly fine discussion on CHIM, every time I try to get away this topic drags me back in!

I don't believe that the P/R system exists only to stroke the Paragon's ego. Especially in ME 1, both paths were viable, with some questionable choices on both sides. This was lost to an extent in ME2, where a red or blue shade would fix whatever problem you're on regardless of your path. From what I've heard of the ME 3 spoilers (trying to avoid them), this kind of completely goes out the window.

So it's more loss of focus than intentionally designed to mess with you.

But it does. It's clearly the "warm and fuzzy" path why else would it involve underming their beloved "cool alien" council by letting the Rachni run amok unsupervised or supporting the Krogan of all people? Shouldn't that be something an anti-establishment troublemaker would do, you know a "renegade"? There never was any depth to the system, both are shallow options meant to satisfy the emotional impulses of the player and nothing more.

That certain renegade actions never amount to anything like killing the Rachni to gain favor with the Krogan or the Heretic Geth with the Quarians also proves that's it's a tacked on troll mode without given much thought as to it's implementation.

[Sebby]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

You didn't approach Origins as it should have been approached: the main story was the whole Fereldan Civil War Loghain initiated, which was ended one way or another during the Landsmeet. All the Blight ever was, was the circumstance that allowed the events of the game to happen, nothing more than a simple force of nature. The final battle with the Darkspawn and the Archdemon therefore shouldn't be seen as anything more than a glorified epilogue.

And that's the exact same thing that should have been done with ME3: the only fixed event to happen should be the final battle with the Reapers. Every conflict between or within the factions and races below the Reapers should have been able to be solved however the player desires, in whatever fashion the player desires.

Yes, it would have been nice to make conscious decisions of who to support between conflicting factions unlike now where we have Paragon Shepard making friends with anybody and everybody no matter how nonsensical (ex. Geth/Quarian, Rachni/Krogan and Council/Krogan).

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Seboist wrote...
But it does. It's clearly the "warm and fuzzy" path why else would it involve underming their beloved "cool alien" council by letting the Rachni run amok unsupervised or supporting the Krogan of all people? Shouldn't that be something an anti-establishment troublemaker would do, you know a "renegade"? There never was any depth to the system, both are shallow options meant to satisfy the emotional impulses of the player and nothing more.

That certain renegade actions never amount to anything like killing the Rachni to gain favor with the Krogan or the Heretic Geth with the Quarians also proves that's it's a tacked on troll mode without given much thought as to it's implementation.

Because paragon is about idealism (everyone has the right to live, etc) while renegade is more cynnical, practical or egocentric.

The Krogans don't deserve the genophage VS The genophage is necessary.
The Rachni queen does not deserve to die because of being a potential threat VS The queen is too dangerous.
We can and should all work together VS Humanity first.

Most of the choices alligments make sense. It is just that the consequences are completely mind-numbering biased.

[Sebby]

Lizardviking wrote...

Seboist wrote...
But it does. It's clearly the "warm and fuzzy" path why else would it involve underming their beloved "cool alien" council by letting the Rachni run amok unsupervised or supporting the Krogan of all people? Shouldn't that be something an anti-establishment troublemaker would do, you know a "renegade"? There never was any depth to the system, both are shallow options meant to satisfy the emotional impulses of the player and nothing more.

That certain renegade actions never amount to anything like killing the Rachni to gain favor with the Krogan or the Heretic Geth with the Quarians also proves that's it's a tacked on troll mode without given much thought as to it's implementation.

Because paragon is about idealism (everyone has the right to live, etc) while renegade is more cynnical, practical or egocentric.

The Krogans don't deserve the genophage VS The genophage is necessary.
The Rachni queen does not deserve to die because of being a potential threat VS The queen is too dangerous.
We can and should all work together VS Humanity first.

Most of the choices alligments make sense. It is just that the consequences are completely mind-numbering biased.

What I was getting at is how shallow the whole thing is. Why can't it be about what faction my Shepard supports? It's extremely lame how you can support both the Krogan and the Council at the same time without repercussions. Besides, everything about the Krogan from their aggressive warlike behavior to their hatred of the council screams "Renegade ally!".

DA:O and both Witcher games have faction alignment without any kind of touchy feely morality nonsense, why can't Mass Effect?

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Quick question, laecraft: given that my children, if any, will be asari, would you respect me more for siding with them outright than whatever my current status is?

Why would your children be affiliated with the Asari Republics, rather than the Alliance? Simply because they're Asari?

That's just racism in action.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 15 novembre 2011 - 02:04 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

This makes no sense. Paragon choices have plenty of worth on their own. Possibly they screwed up on the implementation, but there'd be no reason to include choice only to be deceptive.

The illusion of choice is the primary goal of RPG design. To make people feel that this action is their choice, rather than a choice forced by the creators.

When there is a congruance between the deception and the player intent, it's lauded. When the player doesn't accept the lie and starts going 'why should I?', the deception is recognized and often hated.

[Dean_the_Young]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Here I was having a perfectly fine discussion on CHIM, every time I try to get away this topic drags me back in!

I don't believe that the P/R system exists only to stroke the Paragon's ego. Especially in ME 1, both paths were viable, with some questionable choices on both sides. This was lost to an extent in ME2, where a red or blue shade would fix whatever problem you're on regardless of your path. From what I've heard of the ME 3 spoilers (trying to avoid them), this kind of completely goes out the window.

So it's more loss of focus than intentionally designed to mess with you.

ME1 was the worst, considering that every story choice amounted to 'kill person(s) X', to which there was no cameo or later benefit, or 'do not kill person(s) X', in which the player was rewarded by more (or any) cameo content, a better galactic setting and context, and going into ME3 better rewards.

The P/R system only worked in ME1 with the side quests and minor quests that had no greater impact.

Persuasions were always quick-fixes in both games, but at least ME2 made Renegade in a good light in terms of the Big Decisions.

[Dean_the_Young]

Seboist wrote...

DA:O and both Witcher games have faction alignment without any kind of touchy feely morality nonsense, why can't Mass Effect?

I'm not sure I'd cite DA:O as a good faction-alignment game.

F:NV was much better. While it had a separte morality bar, and certain factions leaned towards certain moralities, faction-alignment was based on context.

[Xilizhra]

Why would your children be affiliated with the Asari Republics, rather than the Alliance? Simply because they're Asari?

That's just racism in action.

Would the Alliance let them in? There seems to be no precedent for it.
Of course, this is exactly the sort of thing I'd be hoping to change, but I have something of a political preference for the Asari Republics in any case.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why would your children be affiliated with the Asari Republics, rather than the Alliance? Simply because they're Asari?

That's just racism in action.

Would the Alliance let them in? There seems to be no precedent for it.

The Alliance does have colonies with non-human populations. In CDN we also know that cross-species adoptions also occur.

Where's the precedence in Alliance pushing out aliens?

Of course, this is exactly the sort of thing I'd be hoping to change, but I have something of a political preference for the Asari Republics in any case.

The Asari Republics are the primary creators and ensurers of the racial caste system.

There's more than a slight cross-purpose here.

[Xilizhra]

The Alliance does have colonies with non-human populations. In CDN we also know that cross-species adoptions also occur.

Where's the precedence in Alliance pushing out aliens?

Are they actually Alliance citizens, or do they just happen to live there?

The Asari Republics are the primary creators and ensurers of the racial caste system.

There's more than a slight cross-purpose here.

Unlikely to have anything to do with the asari themselves; I suspect it's largely an artifact of every species having its own government before joining the galactic community. I would see it eroded, but I do believe that Thessian culture is still a good base.

[BlueMagitek]

laecraft wrote...
I've heard once devs saying in an article that the default decision in ME2 is sacrificing the Council because they wanted to give the players from ME1 the feeling that they have accomplished something. I've seen once a poster on this forum say that P/R system is a moral lesson (lesson here is that being a jerk makes you fail.) If that's not an attempt to take moral high ground at the expense of real, live people who play Renegade path, then I don't know what is.

Well that's just silly considering both were a valid choice.   And why are you listening to something a poster here says?  I can count the Mass Effect posters I trust on one hand.

Seboist wrote...

But it does. It's clearly the "warm and
fuzzy" path why else would it involve underming their beloved "cool
alien" council by letting the Rachni run amok unsupervised or supporting
the Krogan of all people? Shouldn't that be something an
anti-establishment troublemaker would do, you know a "renegade"? There
never was any depth to the system, both are shallow options meant to
satisfy the emotional impulses of the player and nothing more.

That
certain renegade actions never amount to anything like killing the
Rachni to gain favor with the Krogan or the Heretic Geth with the
Quarians also proves that's it's a tacked on troll mode without given
much thought as to it's implementation.

Basically everything I wanted to say was covered by Lizardviking.

Paragon & Renegade aren't set in stone; not every renegade action benefits humanity and not every paragon action benefits aliens.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
ME1 was the worst, considering that
every story choice amounted to 'kill person(s) X', to which there was no
cameo or later benefit, or 'do not kill person(s) X', in which the
player was rewarded by more (or any) cameo content, a better galactic
setting and context, and going into ME3 better rewards.

The P/R system only worked in ME1 with the side quests and minor quests that had no greater impact.

Persuasions were always quick-fixes in both games, but at least ME2 made Renegade in a good light in terms of the Big Decisions.

The problem was with ME2's handling of the choices, not the choices themselves.  Killing the Rachni queen should give you more support from the Council and the Krogan; this didn't happen.  Feros... why would there be any benefit of exterminating the colonists?  Unless the remaining Thorian spores turn out to be horrible in ME 3, but that'd be metagaming.  

[Sebby]

There could be a benefit for wiping out the colonists in the form of the council being more supportive of Shepard due to him proving he won't allow any bias for his species conflict with missions.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Alliance does have colonies with non-human populations. In CDN we also know that cross-species adoptions also occur.

Where's the precedence in Alliance pushing out aliens?

Are they actually Alliance citizens, or do they just happen to live there?

Depends on your colony/nation (if Earther) of origin. There's nothing to suggest the Alliance makes aliens second-class citizens in general, let alone those adopted or 'fathered' by a Human.

Unlikely to have anything to do with the asari themselves; I suspect it's largely an artifact of every species having its own government before joining the galactic community. I would see it eroded, but I do believe that Thessian culture is still a good base.

The Asari set it up, and the Asari themselves don't have a unified government.

Thessian culture is post-WW2 Human culture, with an emphasis on xeno-biology. It's provided nothing else that Humans, and others, haven't offered in their own right.

[Dean_the_Young]

BlueMagitek wrote...


The problem was with ME2's handling of the choices, not the choices themselves.  Killing the Rachni queen should give you more support from the Council and the Krogan; this didn't happen.  Feros... why would there be any benefit of exterminating the colonists?  Unless the remaining Thorian spores turn out to be horrible in ME 3, but that'd be metagaming.  

Oh, the handling of ME1 choices was atrocious, no doubt about that. Worst part of the story-telling.

I don't know about killing the Rachni getting you support from the Council, but it would have made an excellent justification for in-ME2 support from Noveria. Some Noveria Exec: Hey, Shepard, thanks for saving our ass. Here's 3k of each resource to help you out.


The Feros colonist decision was badly played in general, because it's actually easier to use grenades than not... even though killing them outright was supposed to be 'our own safety first' mentality.

I think Saphra came up with a good idea that, during the finale with the Thorian itself, any colonists you 'knocked out' would come back and attack you during the boss fight. So you'd fight them and kill them any way, but the sense of the battle would be changed (did you struggle to save them, or ruthlessly put them down at your first point?).

It would have made for an easier narrative carry-over into ME2 (the only difference being whether you tried or not), and simplified design. Elizabeth should have been the cameo person as well.


Shiala would have made an ideal 'save this person for bad effects later' choice: the only real reason you have to trust her is her own word, after all.