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[Sebby]

XzorshTheConqueror wrote...

Seboist wrote...

XzorshTheConqueror wrote...

Conrad Verner joins Cerberus? TIM turns into some Reaper-monster? When hearing about that and seeing the cheezy romance lines in the Tali thread, I'm almost convinced the script is a hoax. There is no way the ME3 story is going to be this asinine.

I refuse to believe that Bioware is sinking so low. Yes Bioware has had issues with black/white morality in past games, but it was never this ridiculous. And usually they have given their villains redeemable qualities (Sarevok, Aribeth, Revan, Loghain, hell even the Archdemon). This just does not fit their style.

He doesn't turn into a reaper-monster but he might as well be one with the way he acts.

When you said Grayson 2.0 I was envisioning TIM all decked out in reaperesque augmentations.

Not quite to that extent but similar.

[mybudgee]

The archdemon was at the head of the class in cajun style bbq. The meat that was bbq'd MAY have been dalish tenderloin...

[XzorshTheConqueror]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

XzorshTheConqueror wrote...
And usually they have given their villains redeemable qualities (Sarevok, Aribeth, Revan, Loghain, hell even the Archdemon).

Okay, this should be good. What redeemable qualities did the Archdemon have?

I don't want to turn this into a DA discussion, and I haven't played Dragon Age in a long time, but I seem to recall the Archdemon being characterized as something of a victim. Or rather I should say that the Archdemon is not the true nature of the Old God it once was. My memory of this is fuzzy, so I'm afraid that's the best I can offer right now. If necessary, I can broaden that by saying that Bioware added nuance to the Darkspawn by incorporating the Architect into the storyline.

[XzorshTheConqueror]

Well said, laecraft.

Speaking as someone who plays a pure paragon, I do not appreciate my choices being heralded as the "right" choices. The paragon path is the one that appeals to me, because I like the idea of being the one who suffers for his uncompromisable ideals. When my Shepard decided to go against TIM's orders and blow up the base, he meant it when he said that he wasn't going to sacrifice the soul of humanity in order to win the war. And here I was thinking that I would handicap myself in ME3 by not having the base, but that I'd be willing to endure the consequences and be the unbreakable rock in the face of the Reaper invasion. Even if I lost, or suffered much in order to beat them, I'd end the trilogy with a smile knowing that I did not let the Reapers break me, change who I am.

And yet all of that will not happen, because I know that the golden ending will be handed to me on a silver platter, because I did everything Bioware wanted me to do: Save the Council (check), Save the Genophage cure data (check), Release the Rachni Queen (check), Blow up the Collector Base (check), Let Balak go (check).

Bioware, by making us paragons get everything that we want, you are in essence denying us the chance to truly roleplay our characters.

[Xilizhra]

I'm not looking for debate anymore, it's all over now.

That's impressive.

Speaking as someone who plays a pure paragon, I do not appreciate my choices being heralded as the "right" choices. The paragon path is the one that appeals to me, because I like the idea of being the one who suffers for his uncompromisable ideals. When my Shepard decided to go against TIM's orders and blow up the base, he meant it when he said that he wasn't going to sacrifice the soul of humanity in order to win the war. And here I was thinking that I would handicap myself in ME3 by not having the base, but that I'd be willing to endure the consequences and be the unbreakable rock in the face of the Reaper invasion. Even if I lost, or suffered much in order to beat them, I'd end the trilogy with a smile knowing that I did not let the Reapers break me, change who I am.

Interesting difference of perspectives here. I'm a Paragon because I believe (and believed, even before ME2) that my ideals would create a better universe. That's always been my own aim, and I'm not terribly sorry about being right.

[XzorshTheConqueror]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not looking for debate anymore, it's all over now.

That's impressive.

Speaking as someone who plays a pure paragon, I do not appreciate my choices being heralded as the "right" choices. The paragon path is the one that appeals to me, because I like the idea of being the one who suffers for his uncompromisable ideals. When my Shepard decided to go against TIM's orders and blow up the base, he meant it when he said that he wasn't going to sacrifice the soul of humanity in order to win the war. And here I was thinking that I would handicap myself in ME3 by not having the base, but that I'd be willing to endure the consequences and be the unbreakable rock in the face of the Reaper invasion. Even if I lost, or suffered much in order to beat them, I'd end the trilogy with a smile knowing that I did not let the Reapers break me, change who I am.

Interesting difference of perspectives here. I'm a Paragon because I believe (and believed, even before ME2) that my ideals would create a better universe. That's always been my own aim, and I'm not terribly sorry about being right.

Oh my Shepard is working towards building a better universe as well, no question about it. He just doesn''t have confidence that his own choices are the wisest, but is sitcking to his guns anyway and is willing to endure the consequences for his stubborn decisions.

[Xilizhra]

Oh my Shepard is working towards building a better universe as well, no question about it. He just doesn''t have confidence that his own choices are the wisest, but is sitcking to his guns anyway and is willing to endure the consequences for his stubborn decisions.

Mine feels she can never be truly sure, but that she's doing her best to make the wisest decisions overall.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Oh my, this thread is riddled with spoilers. *walks away*

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

Seboist wrote...

DCWalkman wrote...

Now that it seems like The Illusive Man and Cerberus are full blown antagonist in ME3 instead of allies, can a pure renegade be a hero?

A gimped one that succeeded at great and needless cost yeah.

I honestly don't understand why you see this as a bad thing. I can't imagine you caring about any cost, except maybe Cerberus.

Because having an anti-hero whos sacrifices winds up being utterly pointless and more or less mocked in his alternative universe is lame storytelling?

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Seboist wrote...
He doesn't turn into a reaper-monster but he might as well be one with the way he acts.

So TIM is less like Andrew Ryan and more like Mecha-Hitler?

[sobs]

[HiroVoid]

XzorshTheConqueror wrote...

Well said, laecraft.

Speaking as someone who plays a pure paragon, I do not appreciate my choices being heralded as the "right" choices. The paragon path is the one that appeals to me, because I like the idea of being the one who suffers for his uncompromisable ideals. When my Shepard decided to go against TIM's orders and blow up the base, he meant it when he said that he wasn't going to sacrifice the soul of humanity in order to win the war. And here I was thinking that I would handicap myself in ME3 by not having the base, but that I'd be willing to endure the consequences and be the unbreakable rock in the face of the Reaper invasion. Even if I lost, or suffered much in order to beat them, I'd end the trilogy with a smile knowing that I did not let the Reapers break me, change who I am.

And yet all of that will not happen, because I know that the golden ending will be handed to me on a silver platter, because I did everything Bioware wanted me to do: Save the Council (check), Save the Genophage cure data (check), Release the Rachni Queen (check), Blow up the Collector Base (check), Let Balak go (check).

Bioware, by making us paragons get everything that we want, you are in essence denying us the chance to truly roleplay our characters.

This is basically my feelings on the subject.  I play basically a character who's 100% paragon, and 50-75% renegade which basically means that I'm an intimidating paragon player who's made mostly paragon decisions, and a few renegade ones.  While I can get through ME3 knowing I made pretty much almost all the right decisions, it still pisses me off that it doesn't seem like nothing's really backfiring on me.  When I focused on Sovereign, I liked the citadel in Mass Effect 2 because I loved the conflict it gave me instead of everyone treating me like an idolized perfect hero.  I worried about what could come with the rachni though I took their 'sour note' as a pretty big hint.  I like playing a character who does what he can to make the galaxy a better and safer place, but it makes my character feel more human to know that not everything went as planned, or that something goes wrong.  In this way though, not only does it seem to have been made that no paragon decisions that backfire on you, but it seems like renegade decisions that should have helped you have just been substituted with something else making their choices that were 'correct' meaningless, and punishing them for certain choices while paragon choices that don't work out well are still choices that wouldn't have mattered since those choices would have just been filled up by something else, and they get the luxury of enjoying all of their 'correct' choices.

*Batarian spoilers though you've probably already seen it on this thread*
The Balak decision is the one that obviously should have bit you in the a**.  I agree with the other guy in that the missle silo would have at least been a good time to use it instead of having him somehow 'support' Shepard.  Or at the least, if you spare him, it's impossible to get Batarian support.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 16 novembre 2011 - 08:39 .

[Sebby]

Yeah, the lopsided bullsh!t hurts Paragon as much as it does Renegade. It robs the feeling that you're making hard choices and makes it more like you're playing with cheat codes enabled with no sense of accomplishment.

[Kaiser Shepard]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Yep, take head canon out of the equation and ME becomes little more than a Star Wars-esque fairy tale in space with a light/dark side morality system and a conversation simulator.

If it only were that good. In KotOR you can take over the flipping Galaxy. Makes all those DS points worth it.

You'd think that Cerberus - practically being reduced to a mere Sith expy - would be the obvious alternative "Dark Side" path, with Shep possibly even taking over as Illusive Man at the end. But we don't even get that; KotOR, of all things, triumphs the finale of something that took at least half a decade to set up, not only in choice but in basic storytelling as well.

Lizardviking wrote...

Seboist wrote...
He doesn't turn into a reaper-monster but he might as well be one with the way he acts.

So TIM is less like Andrew Ryan and more like Mecha-Hitler?

[sobs]

Is an Illusive Man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?

"No," says the Paragon on BSN, "We want just our story."
"No," says the non-heterosexual, "We also want shallow romances."
"No," says the writer at BioWare, "We'd rather be lazy than tired."

Instead, we got something different. We got the impossible. We got...

Pure villainy. 

--- 

All in all, TIM isn't quite the Hitler, though; that role is reserved for another man the majority of the fanbase happens to hate.

That's pretty much how all the roles were given: If you were well liked in the previous games, you can be assured of prominent role on Shepard's side, whereas all the others are reduced to comic book villainy and other shenanigans.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 16 novembre 2011 - 01:47 .

[Xilizhra]

When I focused on Sovereign, I liked the citadel in Mass Effect 2 because I loved the conflict it gave me instead of everyone treating me like an idolized perfect hero.

Since when are you treated like an idolized perfect hero by that much of the galaxy even if you are Paragon? The Council distrusts you, the Alliance abandons you, advertisers try to bilk you... Shepard doesn't even bring it up all that often.

Yeah, the lopsided bullsh!t hurts Paragon as much as it does Renegade. It robs the feeling that you're making hard choices and makes it more like you're playing with cheat codes enabled with no sense of accomplishment.

Speak for yourself. There are plenty of issues where there's still inescapable conflict, such as Aratoht.

You'd think that Cerberus - practically being reduced to a mere Sith expy - would be the obvious alternative "Dark Side" path, with Shep possibly even taking over as Illusive Man at the end. But we don't even get that; KotOR, of all things, triumphs the finale of something that took at least half a decade to set up, not only in choice but in basic storytelling as well.

Don't the Sith also all try to kill you in KotOR? Though I might be thinking of just the second game.
There's also the fact that "good storytelling" doesn't necessarily mean "that which caters to your narcissistic sensibilities," but eh.

[Sebby]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

That's pretty much how all the roles were given: If you were well liked in the previous games, you can be assured of prominent role on Shepard's side, whereas all the others are reduced to comic book villainy and other shenanigans.

That explains Fuhrer Udina, Grand Dragon Saracino, The Illusive Saren and Zaeed.

[Xilizhra]

Indoctrinated, always like that, always like that/indoctrinated, and just on a job.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Xilizhra wrote...

You'd think that Cerberus - practically being reduced to a mere Sith expy - would be the obvious alternative "Dark Side" path, with Shep possibly even taking over as Illusive Man at the end. But we don't even get that; KotOR, of all things, triumphs the finale of something that took at least half a decade to set up, not only in choice but in basic storytelling as well.

Don't the Sith also all try to kill you in KotOR? Though I might be thinking of just the second game.

They do at first, but that's just because you start on opposite sides in the war and the pc becoming a Jedi early on in the game. Still, you are eventually allowed to become a Sith yourself and overthrow the current Dark Lord.

Mass Effect has you working together with their Sith expy for a full game and most of the DLC, allows you to agree with and aid the current "Dark Lord" and his goals... then has them pull a 180 because there are no other possible villains left while the galaxy is crumbling? You'd think that just the glowies would be more than enough, perhaps together with a multispecies Reaper "cult" of sorts to have an enemy with a face as well, with a couple of mercs slowing your progress from time to time.

There's also the fact that "good storytelling" doesn't necessarily mean "that which caters to your narcissistic sensibilities," but eh.

Good storytelling mean just what the word implies it does. Good game design, at least in an rpg like this, does indeed cater to everyone possible.

[Xilizhra]

Mass Effect has you working together with their Sith expy for a full game and most of the DLC, allows you to agree with and aid the current "Dark Lord" and his goals... then has them pull a 180 because there are no other possible villains left while the galaxy is crumbling? You'd think that just the glowies would be more than enough, perhaps together with a multispecies Reaper "cult" of sorts to have an enemy with a face as well, with a couple of mercs slowing your progress from time to time.

Presumably they didn't want to create an entirely new personal foe for the last game in the trilogy. I personally agree with that.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Sounds like we're getting the Cerberus from ME1 in ME3.   It's not a 180, it's a "This is who they were all along."

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 16 novembre 2011 - 03:33 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Xilizhra wrote...

Presumably they didn't want to create an entirely new personal foe for the last game in the trilogy. I personally agree with that.

They haven't for the middle chapter either, and a new villain with a face under the Reapers would hardly be a terrible thing.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Sounds like we're getting the Cerberus from ME1 in ME3.   It's not a 180, it's a "This is who they were all along."

The Cerberus from ME1? Honey, we left there a loooong time ago.

This is mere plot clay in its purest form.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 16 novembre 2011 - 03:37 .

[Sebby]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Sounds like we're getting the Cerberus from ME1 in ME3.   It's not a 180, it's a "This is who they were all along."

So we're getting an optional and irrelevant to the main story minor enemy with minimal development again?

[Xilizhra]

They haven't for the middle chapter either, and a new villain with a face under the Reapers would hardly be a terrible thing.

They screwed up the middle chapter in that regard. They're making up for that mistake now.

So we're getting an optional and irrelevant to the main story minor enemy with minimal development again?

He's referring to Cerberus in-universe.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Seboist wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Sounds like we're getting the Cerberus from ME1 in ME3.   It's not a 180, it's a "This is who they were all along."

So we're getting an optional and irrelevant to the main story minor enemy with minimal development again?

I'm noting that Cerberus in ME3 will be acting in the manner in which they acted in ME1, and really in most of the side missions in ME2.