6970 réponses à ce sujet

[Killjoy Cutter]

Seboist wrote...
Cerberus saved humanity from the Collectors. They're big guddam heroes.

And a certain Bavarian with a funny mustache loved his dogs... 

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

That alone makes them worthy of more adroit handling.

Why is it so terrible here?

Subpar handling of complex emotional, social, and political issues is terrible everywhere.

Xilizhra wrote...

Good taste is important.

Well, I think I'll be able to take you disliking me.

Not refering to you obviously!  But others.

[Xilizhra]

Subpar handling of complex emotional, social, and political issues is terrible everywhere.

Indoctrination has a way of decaying all of those, but didn't we know that already?

[General User]

You think Bioware has been indoctrinated?

That's absu... possible.

[Sohe]

I never hated T.I.M. I could understand he had humanity's best interests at heart. BUT his ways of doing it weren't the top of line ethier

[Sebby]

General User wrote...

Don't hate, participate!

If ME3 has Cerberus turning into some weird n*zi parody, why not just go all in and embrace that?  Fellow fans, get down wit' yo' spacen*zi self!

It's not like any notion so ridiculous deserves to be taken seriously anyway. So why not have fun with the joke, even if it was unintentional?  'Cause if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.  And if you can't laugh with 'em, laugh at 'em.

May as well pretend we're playing a future version of Wolfenstein. The plot is just as ridiculous.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Subpar handling of complex emotional, social, and political issues is terrible everywhere.

Indoctrination has a way of decaying all of those, but didn't we know that already?

And didn't we also sketch out a lot of ways people can be antagonists and villains without blaming it on indoctrination? 

[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Subpar handling of complex emotional, social, and political issues is terrible everywhere.

Indoctrination has a way of decaying all of those, but didn't we know that already?

And didn't we also sketch out a lot of ways people can be antagonists and villains without blaming it on indoctrination? 

Yes, but that wasn't my point; I'm explaining why it didn't happen with our current parameters.

[Sebby]

"Indoctrination" is the ME equivalent of MGS' nanomachines or Castlevania's "Dracula's Magic".

Modifié par Seboist, 16 novembre 2011 - 07:10 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Subpar handling of complex emotional, social, and political issues is terrible everywhere.

Indoctrination has a way of decaying all of those, but didn't we know that already?

And didn't we also sketch out a lot of ways people can be antagonists and villains without blaming it on indoctrination? 

Yes, but that wasn't my point; I'm explaining why it didn't happen with our current parameters.

Writer inadecuecy?

[Xilizhra]

Probably it has something to do with making ME3 easy to pick up for gamers new to the series. Stupid, but I'm not sure if that's Bioware so much as EA.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Xilizhra wrote...

Probably it has something to do with making ME3 easy to pick up for gamers new to the series. Stupid, but I'm not sure if that's Bioware so much as EA.

"ME3 is a great place to start!" 

[Sebby]

Xilizhra wrote...

Probably it has something to do with making ME3 easy to pick up for gamers new to the series. Stupid, but I'm not sure if that's Bioware so much as EA.

They're one and the same.

[HiroVoid]

EA doesn't have anything to do with the writing. They may set a release date, and they may provide a buget, but they're not going to tell Bioware how to write stories. I'm sure a big reason why Cerberus is as big as enemies as they are this game is because Bioware wanted human enemies to fight instead of just constantly fighting reaper enemies, and Cerberus was an easy target to pick from. It's similar to the reason why Orsino in Dragon Age II goes crazy at the end no matter what. They just wanted another boss fight.

[HiroVoid]

Xilizhra wrote...
True, some people like Shepard. Just not all.

The point is that the paragon ending goes on with the galaxy as a whole cooperating, and many more species and individuals liking shepard and such.  It's much less conflicted than the renegade one.

As well you should be. Why is it a problem for being scrutinized for abandoning the Council?

I was just replying to how you were talking about being scutinized for saving the council by reporters and such.  I like it, but it's still a more conflicted issue in the renegade path where you can't even meet the new council.  Of course, since the new council is alien, they're both new and probably don't understand why I chose to focus on Sovereign since they don't fully comprehend the theat he posed.....or they know what I think he posed, and they think i'm mentally challenged.....Again, I like the more conflicted universe myself.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 16 novembre 2011 - 07:28 .

[Sebby]

HiroVoid wrote...

EA doesn't have anything to do with the writing. They may set a release date, and they may provide a buget, but they're not going to tell Bioware how to write stories. I'm sure a big reason why Cerberus is as big as enemies as they are this game is because Bioware wanted human enemies to fight instead of just constantly fighting reaper enemies, and Cerberus was an easy target to pick from. It's similar to the reason why Orsino in Dragon Age II goes crazy at the end no matter what. They just wanted another boss fight.

They could have had the Batarians as the human-ish enemies instead of Cerberus which is what the big implication of Arrival was until it became apparent that it was just an excuse to have Shepard start at Earth in ME3.

[Dean_the_Young]

Hell, the Cerberus commandoes already have four-eyed masks.

[Sebby]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Hell, the Cerberus commandoes already have four-eyed masks.

Which BW was too lazy to give the Batarians in ME1 and 2 even though the Turians,Salarians and Krogan had unique helmets.

[HiroVoid]

Seboist wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

EA doesn't have anything to do with the writing. They may set a release date, and they may provide a buget, but they're not going to tell Bioware how to write stories. I'm sure a big reason why Cerberus is as big as enemies as they are this game is because Bioware wanted human enemies to fight instead of just constantly fighting reaper enemies, and Cerberus was an easy target to pick from. It's similar to the reason why Orsino in Dragon Age II goes crazy at the end no matter what. They just wanted another boss fight.

They could have had the Batarians as the human-ish enemies instead of Cerberus which is what the big implication of Arrival was until it became apparent that it was just an excuse to have Shepard start at Earth in ME3.

During a reaper war, using the Batarians would be pretty bad too since I can't see them going to war with us while there's giant machines everywhere destroying everything.  I personally think just using indoctrinated civilians and military personell like those in Arrival would have made a good substitute though.

[Dean_the_Young]

Actually, I'm torn.

If Batarians were the 'change the heads' of the Cerberus enemies, that would be good enough for most.

But then we have the female phantom. Only Batarian.

I'm torn between desire and repulsion at the desire.

[Xilizhra]

The point is that the paragon ending goes on with the galaxy as a whole cooperating, and many more species and individuals liking shepard and such. It's much less conflicted than the renegade one.

Perhaps, but it's still conflicted enough.

EA doesn't have anything to do with the writing. They may set a release date, and they may provide a buget, but they're not going to tell Bioware how to write stories. I'm sure a big reason why Cerberus is as big as enemies as they are this game is because Bioware wanted human enemies to fight instead of just constantly fighting reaper enemies, and Cerberus was an easy target to pick from. It's similar to the reason why Orsino in Dragon Age II goes crazy at the end no matter what. They just wanted another boss fight.

I still believe it's more about accessibility than screwing over minority players.

[General User]

There's no reason Cerberus has to be the face of human racial politics to begin with.

I think Terra Firma had potential as a villain in their own right, especially if they start to grow beyond Cerberus' ability to control them. For example, what if TIM put Saracino in charge hoping he would be controllable, but Terra Firma's wildly surging popularity (independent of Cerberus backing) has lead Saracino to "believe his own hype" and try to cut his ties with Cerberus?  Taking the political party in a far more radical and dangerous direction.

We could have missions revolving around controlling dangerous racial extremists, while at the same time we wouldn't have to force our former allies into a villian's role and we would be treating responsibly the issues that surround extremist racial/political movements, ie that such persons became a problem in the first place not because of some silly conspiracy, but because there is a real problem is society and (right or wrong) they were speaking to it.

And even deprived of Cerberus backing, we wouldn't be short of mooks to shoot. Most extremist political movements have had their own internal armed force: the ****s had the SA, the Bolsheviks had the Red Guards, etc.  Give Terra Firma a group like that.

[Killjoy Cutter]

What gave you the idea that the overall Cerberus organization was an "ally"?

Not to say that your Terra Firma idea is bad...

[Dean_the_Young]

HiroVoid wrote...

Seboist wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

EA doesn't have anything to do with the writing. They may set a release date, and they may provide a buget, but they're not going to tell Bioware how to write stories. I'm sure a big reason why Cerberus is as big as enemies as they are this game is because Bioware wanted human enemies to fight instead of just constantly fighting reaper enemies, and Cerberus was an easy target to pick from. It's similar to the reason why Orsino in Dragon Age II goes crazy at the end no matter what. They just wanted another boss fight.

They could have had the Batarians as the human-ish enemies instead of Cerberus which is what the big implication of Arrival was until it became apparent that it was just an excuse to have Shepard start at Earth in ME3.

During a reaper war, using the Batarians would be pretty bad too since I can't see them going to war with us while there's giant machines everywhere destroying everything.  I personally think just using indoctrinated civilians and military personell like those in Arrival would have made a good substitute though.

Well, the Batarian leadership itself has always been mad/paranoid. So it's a matter of casting it at first, and then indoctrination can preserve it for a time.

Do the Reapers offer them the Saren perspective? 'We need good tools, and if you're good enough we'll spare you?' Desperation and hope.

Do the Reapers approach the Batarians first, in peace, and cast themselves as allies? 'We'll help you in your war against the Humans?' Short-sighted hatred of old rivals rather than the common threat... but that's a tale as old as the term 'divide and conquer.'

Does the Batarian Hegemony's leadership just really, really hate Humans? They've been itching for a war with the Alliance for decades, even though Humanity's long been stronger. 'Taking the Humans down before we go' is a selfish motivation... but so is the Hegemony, which was already willing to face self-destruction in the name of hatred and envy.

Is the Hegemony preparing its own backstab/betrayal of the Reapers? With the Leviathan of Dis and the Kasumi Greybox DLC, it's implied that the Hegemony has been connected to Reaper-related subjects for some time. If one believes the 'Cerberus intends to betray the Reapers for their own advantage' hypothesis, the same could apply for the Batarians.

Do the Batarians leading the Hegemony feel the Reapers will be defeated regardless, and see this as an opportunity to settle old scores? Simply making a 'if you save us for last, we'll help you' arrangement with the Reapers would allow the Hegemony to cripple most of its rivals in a gamble to set itself up as a main post-Reaper power... especially if the Batarians do a timely betrayal of the Reapers at the decisive point.


We know the Reapers are looking for allies on this side of the Galaxy, even if they do intend to betray them all at the end. But we can also come up with reasons, other than indoctrination, for groups to side with them. As a dictatorship, the Hegemony (like Cerberus) is particularly suited to being thrown in a direction many of its own members might not want. Forcing compliance is what a dictatorship exists to do.

But then, stresses within the Hegemony would also offer the opportunity for a Rebel Faction. The long-awaited 'good' Batarians who, while not necessarily nice, don't want to help the Reapers. They provide the impetus for Shepard to strike an alliance and get significant Batarian assets, as well as preserve the Hegemony for future developments.

[Dean_the_Young]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

What gave you the idea that the overall Cerberus organization was an "ally"?

Not to say that your Terra Firma idea is bad...

ME2 and Retribution, where they were firmly against the Reapers.