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[Dave of Canada]

Can't go too much into detail as I'm confined by an NDA, yet I've tried the beta for Star Wars: The Old Republic and the Imperial Agent's story shows perfect storytelling with pragmatism and such being explored at every opportunity. Quite possibly one of the best stories which I've seen come from Bioware, on par with the Dwarf Noble in Origins (except it's a full campaign).

Seems there's some hope for the future after all, just not with ME3.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 16 novembre 2011 - 07:50 .

[General User]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

What gave you the idea that the overall Cerberus organization was an "ally"?

Not to say that your Terra Firma idea is bad...

Cerberus has, for years, conducted a effective anti-Reaper campaign.  I think of them much more as an ally in the sense of joining forces to fight a greater threat.

[Dean_the_Young]

General User wrote...

There's no reason Cerberus has to be the face of human racial politics to begin with.

I think Terra Firma had potential as a villain in their own right, especially if they start to grow beyond Cerberus' ability to control them. For example, what if TIM put Saracino in charge hoping he would be controllable, but Terra Firma's wildly surging popularity (independent of Cerberus backing) has lead Saracino to "believe his own hype" and try to cut his ties with Cerberus?  Taking the political party in a far more radical and dangerous direction.

Hell, one better:

What if the Illusive Man put Saracino in charge to prevent the rise of an uber-extremist leading the movement? While it's often pointed that Saracino was preferable because he could be manipulated, nothing has ever suggested that Saracino was worse than his rival.


If we had tracked the rise of another, more extreme, leader within Terra Firma, then Saracino could have appeared the moderate by comparison. In ME1, we're given a brief introduction to Saracino and asked to support him with unpleasant context. In ME2, Terra Firma could have been publicly and openly pushing for an intervention in the Terminus, despite the prospect of a Terminus backlash. Saracino, either still in power (if you endorsed him) or out, is increasingly eclisped by a rising-star of the movement. Call him Reltih, and he's a populist who's blasting the traitors and alien appeasors of the Council for standing by while good humanss die.


Come ME3, Reltih has gone full namesake and thinks he can co-opt the Reapers to cleanse the galaxy of aliens, or whatever. He's a tool, but with the Reapers support his wing of Terra Firma becomes the quisling/Vichy Earth, under Reaper occupation. The current Cerberus role follows, possibly with Reltih having gained power by having seized that Cerberus-army plot device.

Saracino, still TIM's puppet, is trying to oppose Reltih, who's gone too far even for Terra Firma. If you didn't endorse Saracino in ME1, he's a small fry and gets knocked off. If you endorsed him, however, he's still a big-name and is able to help split the Terra Firma quislings, getting you some war assets.


TIM and Cerberus lost control of another project (controlling Terra Firma), but freed from the 'pure antagonist' role are free to be incredibly dubious allies/situational antagonists. If the Council wavers on supporting the liberation of Earth, Cerberus could do something evil to try and force things along. Cerberus desperation experiments, which provide possible morality-vs-war-asset delimmas. Cerberus never has to be 'good' to be on the same side.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 novembre 2011 - 08:00 .

[Xilizhra]

Cerberus never has to be 'good' to be on the same side.

And for those who don't want to be on their side? Would another forced alliance with Cerberus for a best ending really help?

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

Cerberus never has to be 'good' to be on the same side.

And for those who don't want to be on their side? Would another forced alliance with Cerberus for a best ending really help?

Just as much as being forced to fight them.

[General User]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Cerberus never has to be 'good' to be on the same side.

And for those who don't want to be on their side? Would another forced alliance with Cerberus for a best ending really help?

Just as much as being forced to fight them.

Only far more believable.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
What gave you the idea that the overall Cerberus organization was an "ally"?

Not to say that your Terra Firma idea is bad...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
ME2 and Retribution, where they were firmly against the Reapers.

General User wrote...
Cerberus has, for years, conducted a effective anti-Reaper campaign.  I think of them much more as an ally in the sense of joining forces to fight a greater threat.

For Sheps that held their nose and worked with TIM as long as they had to, Cerberus and Shepard were using each other, nothing more. 

Sheps that enthusiastically signed on with Cerberus were just plain being used. 

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Cerberus never has to be 'good' to be on the same side.

And for those who don't want to be on their side? Would another forced alliance with Cerberus for a best ending really help?

Just as much as being forced to fight them.

When I had my ideas for ME3 a few months ago, I'd had Cerberus as a potentially mutually exclusive ally with the Council, but only if you saved the base. If you destroyed it, Cerberus would be rendered too weak and the Reapers would obliterate them. Killing the Council would lead to the same thing happening to the new Council. If you save both, you have to fight and destroy one of them. If you destroy both... well, you're bereft of allies there.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

General User wrote...
There's no reason Cerberus has to be the face of human racial politics to begin with.

I think Terra Firma had potential as a villain in their own right, especially if they start to grow beyond Cerberus' ability to control them. For example, what if TIM put Saracino in charge hoping he would be controllable, but Terra Firma's wildly surging popularity (independent of Cerberus backing) has lead Saracino to "believe his own hype" and try to cut his ties with Cerberus?  Taking the political party in a far more radical and dangerous direction.

Hell, one better:

What if the Illusive Man put Saracino in charge to prevent the rise of an uber-extremist leading the movement? While it's often pointed that Saracino was preferable because he could be manipulated, nothing has ever suggested that Saracino was worse than his rival.


If we had tracked the rise of another, more extreme, leader within Terra Firma, then Saracino could have appeared the moderate by comparison. In ME1, we're given a brief introduction to Saracino and asked to support him with unpleasant context. In ME2, Terra Firma could have been publicly and openly pushing for an intervention in the Terminus, despite the prospect of a Terminus backlash. Saracino, either still in power (if you endorsed him) or out, is increasingly eclisped by a rising-star of the movement. Call him Reltih, and he's a populist who's blasting the traitors and alien appeasors of the Council for standing by while good humanss die.


Come ME3, Reltih has gone full namesake and thinks he can co-opt the Reapers to cleanse the galaxy of aliens, or whatever. He's a tool, but with the Reapers support his wing of Terra Firma becomes the quisling/Vichy Earth, under Reaper occupation. The current Cerberus role follows, possibly with Reltih having gained power by having seized that Cerberus-army plot device.

Saracino, still TIM's puppet, is trying to oppose Reltih, who's gone too far even for Terra Firma. If you didn't endorse Saracino in ME1, he's a small fry and gets knocked off. If you endorsed him, however, he's still a big-name and is able to help split the Terra Firma quislings, getting you some war assets.


TIM and Cerberus lost control of another project (controlling Terra Firma), but freed from the 'pure antagonist' role are free to be incredibly dubious allies/situational antagonists. If the Council wavers on supporting the liberation of Earth, Cerberus could do something evil to try and force things along. Cerberus desperation experiments, which provide possible morality-vs-war-asset delimmas. Cerberus never has to be 'good' to be on the same side.

You know, I really like that.  Honestly. 

(As long as the "best" ending doesn't hinge on supporting Saracino in ME1... talk about needing a shower when you're done...)

[General User]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
What gave you the idea that the overall Cerberus organization was an "ally"?

Not to say that your Terra Firma idea is bad...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
ME2 and Retribution, where they were firmly against the Reapers.

General User wrote...
Cerberus has, for years, conducted a effective anti-Reaper campaign.  I think of them much more as an ally in the sense of joining forces to fight a greater threat.

For Sheps that held their nose and worked with TIM as long as they had to, Cerberus and Shepard were using each other, nothing more. 

Sheps that enthusiastically signed on with Cerberus were just plain being used. 

That sort of "allies but not friends" relationship has all sorts of narrative and creative potential that the "Cerberus is every manner of evil" line just doesn't have.

[Xilizhra]

That sort of "allies but not friends" relationship has all sorts of narrative and creative potential that the "Cerberus is every manner of evil" line just doesn't have.

Don't worry, we have other people to do the first one with.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Cerberus never has to be 'good' to be on the same side.

And for those who don't want to be on their side? Would another forced alliance with Cerberus for a best ending really help?

If you're asking 'what would I do?', then the answer is: no, I wouldn't force an alliance. Suggesting that's the only alternative is a false delimma.

It could be another one of those 'consequences' temporary alliances once again. Perhaps not even a mandatory one: something on the scale of the Terminus Merc Groups, not the Council Races/Krogan/Geth/Quarians where you have to go, have to seek them, and have to pick someone to join you.

Consequences wouldn't just be limited to war assets (though that's a big part of the 'why ally'), but also post-game consequences as well... some good, some bad. If you enlist their help, consequences 1: maybe Cerberus demands amnesty for past crimes and acceptance by the Council: something like TIM getting un-revocable Spectre status. Recruiting them gives them a legal cover from now on. If you spurn an alliance, consequences 2: Cerberus doesn't help, and is still illegal. Keeping the Base amplifies their value as War Assets... and also the effects on the epilogue.


Critically, I'd also block the player from a choice to destroy Cerberus (and kill the Illusive Man) as well. Cerberus is almost certainly going to be a continuing element of all future ME properties, and if it isn't the major enemy there's no real basis for suddenly wiping it out as well.

[Xilizhra]

Critically, I'd also block the player from a choice to destroy Cerberus (and kill the Illusive Man) as well. Cerberus is almost certainly going to be a continuing element of all future ME properties, and if it isn't the major enemy there's no real basis for suddenly wiping it out as well.

I disagree; I believe Cerberus will be extinguished in ME3.

[Dean_the_Young]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

For Sheps that held their nose and worked with TIM as long as they had to, Cerberus and Shepard were using each other, nothing more. 

Sheps that enthusiastically signed on with Cerberus were just plain being used. 

That's what alliances are. Mordin has an excellent line about it during his recruitment.

But Cerberus did have a credible history of opposing the Reapers in all the material upto the start of ME3. Arguably it had an even better record than the Alliance and Council, since neither of them really recognized the threat or started preparing for it in earnest until very, very, very last minute. (Not going to address the truth of Cerberus from the spoilers.)

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 novembre 2011 - 08:18 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Critically, I'd also block the player from a choice to destroy Cerberus (and kill the Illusive Man) as well. Cerberus is almost certainly going to be a continuing element of all future ME properties, and if it isn't the major enemy there's no real basis for suddenly wiping it out as well.

I disagree; I believe Cerberus will be extinguished in ME3.

Cerberus is a cultural movement as much as an organiztional movement. Even if you killed TIM and every Cerberus operative and every current Cerberus supporter, the sentiments that gave birth to it will rise again: Human nationalism in a galaxy in which aliens are proven to be willing to sell out other species for their own gain, and in which no one else can be counted to raise Humanity to a position in which it can defend itself on its own terms.

The names could change, but the cultural identity will not. Just as there were Germans long before there was a Germany, Cerberus will carry on past any death in ME3. If it will return regardless, there's no narrative point in a false-decision which can be easily overturned by something as simple as 'Cerberus operatives who escaped its destruction slowly rebuild the group.'

[Xilizhra]

Cerberus is a cultural movement as much as an organiztional movement. Even if you killed TIM and every Cerberus operative and every current Cerberus supporter, the sentiments that gave birth to it will rise again: Human nationalism in a galaxy in which aliens are proven to be willing to sell out other species for their own gain, and in which no one else can be counted to raise Humanity to a position in which it can defend itself on its own terms.

Perhaps other groups will rise again with similar philosophies, but they won't be Cerberus itself, and they'll be starting weaker without Cerberus' power base. That's all I'm concerned about for now.

[Dean_the_Young]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

General User wrote...
There's no reason Cerberus has to be the face of human racial politics to begin with.

I think Terra Firma had potential as a villain in their own right, especially if they start to grow beyond Cerberus' ability to control them. For example, what if TIM put Saracino in charge hoping he would be controllable, but Terra Firma's wildly surging popularity (independent of Cerberus backing) has lead Saracino to "believe his own hype" and try to cut his ties with Cerberus?  Taking the political party in a far more radical and dangerous direction.

Hell, one better:

What if the Illusive Man put Saracino in charge to prevent the rise of an uber-extremist leading the movement? While it's often pointed that Saracino was preferable because he could be manipulated, nothing has ever suggested that Saracino was worse than his rival.


If we had tracked the rise of another, more extreme, leader within Terra Firma, then Saracino could have appeared the moderate by comparison. In ME1, we're given a brief introduction to Saracino and asked to support him with unpleasant context. In ME2, Terra Firma could have been publicly and openly pushing for an intervention in the Terminus, despite the prospect of a Terminus backlash. Saracino, either still in power (if you endorsed him) or out, is increasingly eclisped by a rising-star of the movement. Call him Reltih, and he's a populist who's blasting the traitors and alien appeasors of the Council for standing by while good humanss die.


Come ME3, Reltih has gone full namesake and thinks he can co-opt the Reapers to cleanse the galaxy of aliens, or whatever. He's a tool, but with the Reapers support his wing of Terra Firma becomes the quisling/Vichy Earth, under Reaper occupation. The current Cerberus role follows, possibly with Reltih having gained power by having seized that Cerberus-army plot device.

Saracino, still TIM's puppet, is trying to oppose Reltih, who's gone too far even for Terra Firma. If you didn't endorse Saracino in ME1, he's a small fry and gets knocked off. If you endorsed him, however, he's still a big-name and is able to help split the Terra Firma quislings, getting you some war assets.


TIM and Cerberus lost control of another project (controlling Terra Firma), but freed from the 'pure antagonist' role are free to be incredibly dubious allies/situational antagonists. If the Council wavers on supporting the liberation of Earth, Cerberus could do something evil to try and force things along. Cerberus desperation experiments, which provide possible morality-vs-war-asset delimmas. Cerberus never has to be 'good' to be on the same side.

You know, I really like that.  Honestly. 

(As long as the "best" ending doesn't hinge on supporting Saracino in ME1... talk about needing a shower when you're done...)

Define 'best.'

The obvious aspect of supporting Saracino is that he gives a 'legitimate,' moderate leadership to the extreme-xenonationalist. The Council doesn't love Terra Firma, but under him Terra Firma wasn't blowing up buses. Terra Firma remains a sometimes unpleasant fact of life, and it does give more War Assets (the Terra Firma anti-Reaper of Saracino's larger faction).


Not supporting him makes Terra Firma synonymous with Reltih. Terra Firma is abolished as a party, criminalized, etc. But the Alliance lacks an alternative to the legitimate concerns that the old Terra Firma gave voice to, and the lack of moderating influence means that those real racists and xeno-haters no longer have a moderating influence to keep them in line. Rather than the historically successful de-National Socialist-fication of Human culture, you get the failed de-Bathification experience as well. Terra Firma die-hards assassinating the occassional alien ambassador, occasional hate crimes, etc.


So while you can 'improve' public discourse by getting rid of Terra Firma, you also accept the costs that occur when radicals aren't moderated by a group that will tolerate them. Whether that's better or not is up to you.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Cerberus is a cultural movement as much as an organiztional movement. Even if you killed TIM and every Cerberus operative and every current Cerberus supporter, the sentiments that gave birth to it will rise again: Human nationalism in a galaxy in which aliens are proven to be willing to sell out other species for their own gain, and in which no one else can be counted to raise Humanity to a position in which it can defend itself on its own terms.

Perhaps other groups will rise again with similar philosophies, but they won't be Cerberus itself, and they'll be starting weaker without Cerberus' power base. That's all I'm concerned about for now.

From a moral perspective or a literary creation perspective?

Even a 'weaker' not-Cerberus Cerberus will always be strong enough to pose a threat in any future work. They'll always be strong enough to pose the necessary threat, and with the necessary justifications to be strong enough to do so. It would be the entire Retribution 'Cerberus has been scalped' to ME3 'Cerberus has a galactic-scale army' all over again, only this time it would be with all the indignation of the Human Councilor decision being subverted.

Why would you knowingly embrace a design you know will lead to the same point? Why advocate a choice you know would be false?


Cerberus was built from nothing to a galactic threat in thirty years. It gained fleets and armies in less than three. The technology to do the same still exists.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 novembre 2011 - 08:35 .

[Xilizhra]

Quite frankly, I believe Bioware will try something else in future installments. at least initially.

[Dean_the_Young]

Mass Effect is ultimately about Humans in the wider galaxy, and they really, really like Cerberus as plot-clay antagonist Humans.

You're never going to get Mass Effect: the adventures of Spectre Liara and her love interest, Shepard's grand daughter.And a bunch of other aliens, fighting more aliens.

Humanity is always going to be the central conceit. Because Humans are central, you'll need good humans (protagonists and their supporters), neutral humans, and bad humans. Cerberus is the Mass Effect bad/neutral human group.

[Xilizhra]

You're never going to get Mass Effect: the adventures of Spectre Liara and her love interest, Shepard's grand daughter.And a bunch of other aliens, fighting more aliens.

Ambiguous syntax, or grandparental incest? But aside from that, I can always hope; I do feel it would be a wonderful opportunity to try something different.

[HiroVoid]

Xilizhra wrote...

You're never going to get Mass Effect: the adventures of Spectre Liara and her love interest, Shepard's grand daughter.And a bunch of other aliens, fighting more aliens.

Ambiguous syntax, or grandparental incest? But aside from that, I can always hope; I do feel it would be a wonderful opportunity to try something different.

I don't believe we'll ever get non-human protagonists unless they do different origins like in Dragon Age: Origins otherwise they'll always go to humans because it appeals to the wider market, and it's more accessible.

As for Cerberus, I agree that in the end, they should either be free to continue on or be demolished based on the player's choices in the game though like was said, you can never get rid of the ideals itself, and if the organization that comes afterwards will be better or worse.  Also, in a fictional extended universe, a new group can come out as strong or weak as however much the plot demands so they can be a legitamate threat.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 16 novembre 2011 - 08:53 .

[Dean_the_Young]

That'd be rich.

'With the galactic dispersion of Reaper tech, the new Cerberus used the technology without foresight or plans, causing more havoc than ever.'

Way to go, Heroine.

[Killjoy Cutter]

It would be interesting to see an Origins-style game in the ME setting, in terms of being able to select one of several species for the PC.

Of course, this would seem to run counter to Bioware's fascination with the "iconic" player character and pre-determined concept.

[Xilizhra]

More havoc than ever? I really doubt that they can top what they're doing now.