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Brotherhood of Cerberus - The Illusive Man Discussion/Support Thread

Débuté par Lambda Faction , juil. 09 2011 10:26

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#4451
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Posté 19 novembre 2011 - 03:15

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Blacklash93 wrote...

Cerberus was never morally grey. It's amusing how sore the renegade fanboys are getting because now even they can't deny it anymore. It's not as funny as watching them try to justify torturing and killing children or trying to enslave sentient races or poisoning unborn babies, but still.

Indeed it's comforting to accept whatever you're told and not question anything at all. I bet monkeys in the zoo find Humans funny as hell too.

#4452
Kmead15
Posté 19 novembre 2011 - 03:46

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Hmm, I think the most douchey renegade moment was probably turning in Mouse. There's no good reason for it. The guy you just dragged into a police station probably isn't going to forgive you for it, and you're giving up a potential source.

I guess punching the reporter is kind of a douche move too.

#4453
Sebby
Posté 19 novembre 2011 - 05:27

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Sketch of the man himself.

Posted Image

Link

Hail TIM!

#4454
GodWood
Posté 19 novembre 2011 - 06:12

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Killjoy Cutter wrote...
The majority?  Hardly. 

Yes the majority.

As for your question, let's start with every juvenile human-supremacist rant and quip, such as response to the two Asari stranded by C-Sec's TSA-parady stupidity on the Citadel.

I assume you mean this?

Seems more like a smartarse remark in response to genuine racism to me.

But ok, that's one, surely you can think of more then just one dialogue snip from a side mission?

#4455
HiroVoid
Posté 19 novembre 2011 - 07:09

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Blacklash93 wrote...

Seboist wrote...
Like I've said in a group, Bioware couldn't come up with a mature morally grey story if their lives depended on it and ME3 proves it.

Yes they can. See Dragon Age.

Cerberus was never morally grey. It's amusing how sore the renegade fanboys are getting because now even they can't deny it anymore. It's not as funny as watching them try to justify torturing and killing children or trying to enslave sentient races or poisoning unborn babies, but still.

So you disagree that Bioware didn't do a good job at showing Illusive man as having the best and worst traits of humanity?  Because that's what they said they were intending to do.

#4456
Some Geth
Posté 19 novembre 2011 - 07:35

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You know what? I don't think I have ever said my opinion on Mr.TIM well I am in the mood now so here it is.

Well first things first I should start with a bad joke since it's what I do and my thing of sorts, I think TIM comes off like this guy  both are really lazy and bad at their plans and they make zombies do all the work(but I am happy TIM is not as fat but sad he does not have as good a laugh).<_<

Okay serious time, real opinion I see TIM as very different from your normal racist, "nationalist", terrorist since most people like that hate their enemies out of fear and ignorance, TIM? he is not scared(much) or stupid about his enemies. He knows what they can do and that is why he wants humans(or himself) on the top, he is power hungry but not in the most cliché way and I like that, hell I have two Shepards who want to have humans and aliens more united but only through human hands and they see TIM as the best man to help with it.

So anyway TIM is a very interesting character and works great in a video game world such as Mass Effect but if I saw him in real life I would kill him dead.=]

Oh yeah also if he is only "evil" because of the Reapers I will get mad he should not be the way he is cuz of big evil robots, that would make a bad story same thing if dies by our hands or the Reapers, if he has to die it should be because of his own mistakes(well that is just my opinion).

I am sure someone will hate this post since I am not very black or white about TIM but to end this post I want to say Martin Sheen for the win.;)

#4457
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Posté 19 novembre 2011 - 08:10

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Kmead15 wrote...

Hmm, I think the most douchey renegade moment was probably turning in Mouse. There's no good reason for it. The guy you just dragged into a police station probably isn't going to forgive you for it, and you're giving up a potential source.


It is a douche bag moment to turn in a criminal?

That's being responsible, not dickish. Though it is perhaps inconsistent. At times Renegade takes bribes after all.

#4458
Some Geth
Posté 19 novembre 2011 - 08:13

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Kmead15 wrote...

Hmm, I think the most douchey renegade moment was probably turning in Mouse. There's no good reason for it. The guy you just dragged into a police station probably isn't going to forgive you for it, and you're giving up a potential source.


It is a douche bag moment to turn in a criminal?

That's being responsible, not dickish. Though it is perhaps inconsistent. At times Renegade takes bribes after all.

Being Renegade is a lot like being a "bad cop" type so it's not all that inconsistent in my view.

#4459
Ultai
Posté 19 novembre 2011 - 08:30

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HiroVoid wrote...

So you disagree that Bioware didn't do a good job at showing Illusive man as having the best and worst traits of humanity?  Because that's what they said they were intending to do.


I tweeted that very question to Mac Walters, about when are they gonna start showing the best traits of humanity in regards to TIM awhile ago.  This was the response twitter.com/#!/macwalterslives/status/126768687658188801

So I'm curious as to what HE thinks TIM's best traits are (did these traits fly over my head?), because I'm not sure what to make of it.  Going by the ridiculousness of ME3, I've had to have missed them, right?

#4460
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Posté 19 novembre 2011 - 01:16

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Seboist wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

It really doesn't matter who Shepard has been in bed with if the Reapers are defeated. ~_^


Being in bed with TIM matters more to my femshep than you think.


:D I like the way your imagination works. Would love to see that implemented in the game, too. Once femshep is in bed with TIM, might as well go all the way. Half-measures are not for the saviors of the galaxy, champions of humanity that are Renegade femshep and TIM.

I've said that before, but I thought I'd summarize why I think TIM is the ultimate LI here.

If TIM were a LI, properly written, we could experience the romance that is finally relevant and even essential to the story, flows effortlessly together with the narrative, firmly entwined with it, intesifying the emotional engagement with the plot, adds tension and personal stake to all the events, builds up to a dramatic culmination, and possibly alters the final choice. The amount of conflict and drama would've been unbelievable. It wouldn't even require changing the plot events, just some dialogues, yet it would completely alter the game experience.

"True love conquers Fate" is a wonderful premise, when done in a proper manner, with a fair amount of sacrifices to be sufficiently believable and satisfying.

Current romances, for all the attention they're recieving, are extremely shallow, have little content, and exist completely isolated from the plot. Whether they're here or not, it doesn't change anything essential. While it makes development easier, it makes the gaming experience much less satisfying.

Furthermore, if TIM were a LI, femshep would finally be involved with her equal, instead of her subordinates. TIM is the only one in the entire game who has the same motivation and ideas that Renegade femshep does.

All other characters are not here to fight the Reapers. They're not here to fight for humanity. They either follow the Alliance's orders (any orders, no matter how little sense they make - VS), or fighting for their own survival (Jack), or enjoy the battle (Grunt), or seeking redemption (Mordin), or feeling suicidal (Thane), or looking to get laid and have kids (Wrex), or on a personal power trip (Tali), or don't have any consistent motivation, or scheme to keep their own species in power without getting into too much trouble (alien Council)...the list goes on.

If you ask for the people who are in this to save humanity and overpower the Reapers, only two names would fit the requirement - Shepard and TIM. They're a perfect match.

Plus, Shepard doesn't have anyone to anthropomorphize humanity for her. This is a big mistake the devs made. As a result, many players don't give a damn about humanity and the Earth. They have no connection to it. They want to fight for the species of their alien LIs. Have little blue kids with Liara, give Tali her homeworld, cure Thane, save Garrus' family...this is the way humans work. Anthropomorphizing is important. When Shepard is fighting for humanity, who is she fighting for?

They are trying to fix that in ME3, with that little kid (but dead don't inspire as much as alive do, they just depress), and Anderson (but Anderson didn't trust me enough in ME2, and there is no fixing that.) VS doubted you in ME2, this isn't an inspiration for me. Other human LIs in ME2 are simple trysts, too shallow to create a real bond.

Now, TIM - he brings you back from the dead and sponsors your fight against the enemy. That's what I call a real involvement. He inspires me to fight for humanity. Making him a LI would've created a real personal motivation for a Renegade femshep. Instead, they had to destroy and poison that potential.

Also, if Renegade femshep got her own, unique story, that would've increased replayability greatly. The lack of TIM romance in the game is everyone's loss.

Modifié par laecraft, 19 novembre 2011 - 01:26 .

#4461
Ravensword
Posté 19 novembre 2011 - 01:36

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Can a Paragon FemShep still romance TIM?

#4462
Sebby
Posté 19 novembre 2011 - 01:49

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It blows that femshep can romance some chidlike creepy obsessive tentacle headed alien, a bug lizard with a literal boner and a slimey frog man with lung problems but not a suave womanizing magnificent bastard who brought her back from the dead,provided her with great comforts like the SR-2 and fully endorses her renegade beliefs. =(

#4463
Sebby
Posté 19 novembre 2011 - 01:57

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Ravensword wrote...

Can a Paragon FemShep still romance TIM?


Sure, if said femshep is into autoerotic asphixiation then she'll enjoy him strangling her for destroying the base.

#4464
Ravensword
Posté 19 novembre 2011 - 01:58

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Seboist wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

Can a Paragon FemShep still romance TIM?


Sure, if said femshep is into autoerotic asphixiation then she'll enjoy him strangling her for destroying the base.


Oh, no. That's not how I see. My FemShep is master seductress. TIM will be too enthralled to harm her.

#4465
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Posté 19 novembre 2011 - 02:19

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Seboist wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

Can a Paragon FemShep still romance TIM?


Sure, if said femshep is into autoerotic asphixiation then she'll enjoy him strangling her for destroying the base.


LOL. Absolutely agree with Seboist. <3 TIM romance must be exclusive to Renegade femshep. And if people want to experience it in all its breathtaking glory, then they should create a femshep, play Renegade, and keep the base. There's a perfect reward for playing Renegade that the Paragons can never hope to get....

It's all for the sake of replayability.

#4466
Dean_the_Young
Posté 19 novembre 2011 - 02:21

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Is that perfect reward pregnancy?

#4467
Ravensword
Posté 19 novembre 2011 - 02:21

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What if you have a Paragon FemShep that does everything Paragon except destroying the base?

#4468
Sebby
Posté 19 novembre 2011 - 02:28

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Ravensword wrote...

What if you have a Paragon FemShep that does everything Paragon except destroying the base?


She needs to keep David in Overlord and send Cerberus the Rawlings data on top of not destroying the base. TIM's love is conditional!

#4469
Ravensword
Posté 19 novembre 2011 - 02:35

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Why!?

#4470
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Posté 19 novembre 2011 - 02:38

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Is that perfect reward pregnancy?


I was thinking more about saving TIM and the Earth at the end through whatever means necessary, overthrowing the old Council, and establishing human / vorcha / krogan / quarian dominance in the galaxy with the use of Reapers tech side by side with TIM, while humanity leads everyone to glory at the helm, and uncovers all the secrets of existence, and the laws of the universe bend to our will, and stars themselves tremble in our wake. Don't limit your imagination.

Ravensword wrote...

What if you have a Paragon FemShep that does everything Paragon except destroying the base?


I think that keeping the base should be a necessary condition, but not a sufficient one. I loath P/R system, and I think there should be a bar to measure femshep's loyalty to Cerberus, instead. It's possible to take pro-Cerberus actions in ME2 in several quests and verbally support them, they should record that. Romancing TIM would require the perfect Cerberus loyalty score.

I didn't like what they did with Samara romance, where they measured your Paragon bar to determine her response, not sure but I think even a single Paragon point is enough to tip her into attraction, too simplistic.

#4471
Dean_the_Young
Posté 19 novembre 2011 - 02:40

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laecraft wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Is that perfect reward pregnancy?


I was thinking more about saving TIM and the Earth at the end through whatever means necessary, overthrowing the old Council, and establishing human / vorcha / krogan / quarian dominance in the galaxy with the use of Reapers tech side by side with TIM, while humanity leads everyone to glory at the helm, and uncovers all the secrets of existence, and the laws of the universe bend to our will, and stars themselves tremble in our wake. Don't limit your imagination.

Dude. (Chick?)

The creation of life itself.

That's head and sholders above making fancier Reaper-tech toaster-ovens.

#4472
Ravensword
Posté 19 novembre 2011 - 02:42

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laecraft wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

What if you have a Paragon FemShep that does everything Paragon except destroying the base?


I think that keeping the base should be a necessary condition, but not a sufficient one. I loath P/R system, and I think there should be a bar to measure femshep's loyalty to Cerberus, instead. It's possible to take pro-Cerberus actions in ME2 in several quests and verbally support them, they should record that. Romancing TIM would require the perfect Cerberus loyalty score.


Shouldn't they also have a Council bar and an Alliance bar to measure your loyalty to those organizations based on your actions as well?

Modifié par Ravensword, 19 novembre 2011 - 02:42 .

#4473
Fiery Phoenix
Posté 19 novembre 2011 - 02:42

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Samara's "romance" depends on which bar is higher, if I'm not mistaken. That is, if you're predominantly Paragon, you get her. If Renegade, she basically says she will shoot you on sight should you cross paths after the mission (i.e. you can't get intimate with her).

#4474
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Posté 19 novembre 2011 - 02:46

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Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Samara's "romance" depends on which bar is higher, if I'm not mistaken. That is, if you're predominantly Paragon, you get her. If Renegade, she basically says she will shoot you on sight should you cross paths after the mission (i.e. you can't get intimate with her).


Yes, that's what I meant. If you're, say, 51 Renegade and 50 Paragon, she wants to kill you. If you're 50 Renegade and 51 Paragon, she loves you. That's silly. It should be more than numerical. I'm thinking progressive, where the progress of your relationship depends on how you do the quests, and it could halt any time.

#4475
Fiery Phoenix
Posté 19 novembre 2011 - 02:51

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laecraft wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Samara's "romance" depends on which bar is higher, if I'm not mistaken. That is, if you're predominantly Paragon, you get her. If Renegade, she basically says she will shoot you on sight should you cross paths after the mission (i.e. you can't get intimate with her).

Yes, that's what I meant. If you're, say, 51 Renegade and 50 Paragon, she wants to kill you. If you're 50 Renegade and 51 Paragon, she loves you. That's silly. It should be more than numerical. I'm thinking progressive, where the progress of your relationship depends on how you do the quests, and it could halt any time.

But... but it's easier to program it that way! :P

Seriously, though, I don't think Samara should have been an option to begin with. But that's probably just me.

Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 19 novembre 2011 - 02:51 .

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