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[Leonia]

*peeks inside*

I'll wager TIM hold the key to stopping the Reapers as Cerberus is the only organisation that has made any attempts to actually understand Reaper technology. Contrary to what Vigil believes, you need to understand the enemy before you can destroy it. TIM's motives may or may not be entirely altruistic but his intention to help humanity is certainly clear. The novels do a better job of explaining him as a character thought they still push the "he's a no good evil villain" buttons for those who are unwilling to think horizontally.

An entire DLC? Doubt it, he already got a comic series and features heavily in the last novel but maybe they will let us explore him as a character better in ME3 because I'll put money on him being a necessary factor in defeating the Reaper threat.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Unrelated to the current topic of discussion, anybody have all The Illusive Man's conversations in one video? If not, I'm planning to record them all and put them all together.

I wish you good luck in your endeavor.

Also, do you plan to put all the possible conversation paths together, or just the ones you usually pick?

[Dave of Canada]

I'll try all possible conversation paths with Council and without it.

[Seboist]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'll try all possible conversation paths with Council and without it.

Will do you do the unthinkable and destroy the base and get TIM angry?

[Dave of Canada]

Unfortunately, yes. For science. He'll understand.

[Ieldra]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Well, we've been sitting upon the fence for quite a long time about where we'd fall. We've always been hoping on to the small vein of hope that we'd be able to do our own choices and fully expect the writers to accomdate both sides of the coin. Though we're playing with a company which always enjoys the company of lawful good paladins, it was an impossible goal we had been hoping for.

Considering they're going to please more people by saying "lol cerberus are evil" than they're going to please by saying "Cerberus isn't all that bad.", it's no wonder they've made Cerberus bad.

How many people have always stated they've wanted to shoot TIM in the head? How many support Cerberus? They'd obviously choose the former, they've got majority on their side. Pissing off TIM fans and Renegades isn't going to hurt them, how many resources do they save from having to write content for the Renegade / Pro-Cerberus player?

Certainly more than they'd gain from pleasing those camps of players. Pleasing the Paragon is far easier as they're in the majority, any resources spent on that morality is regained by people feeling wonderful about their choices and telling their friends about choices having consequences. Never mind how those friends are often going to fall into the Paragon camp themselves.

What was the percentage of people who kept the Base? 36%? Assuming that's everybody who's ever kept the base including those who did it to see what changed (and not all those people support Cerberus), that really leaves little to no room for people to care.

That would be a way to make a statistical evaluation I would call a lie. I don't think they did it that way, and I also don't think there are only 37 of all players who kept the base in at least one playthrough. Two more reasonable interpretations:
(1) 37% of all players kept the base in their first playthrough.
(2) The base was kept in 37% of all playthroughs.

And actually, I think the Collector base decision was taken by quite a few players who otherwise play more or less Paragon. Also, for most people the CB decision is not about supporting Cerberus or not. I'd say considerable fewer people support Cerberus than have kept the Collector base. Which means that I think Bioware will provide something for a general Renegade-ish playstyle, but not so much for pro-Cerberus players.

How bad that is not only for pro-Cerberus players, but also for those like me who aren't exactly fans, but still think Cerberus has a point, remains to be seen.

[Dave of Canada]

Started recording the dialogue on the new playthrough, managed to get a picture of the man himself.



Was probably blown away by my Shepard's choice of armor.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 12 septembre 2011 - 10:15 .

[Ieldra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Seboist wrote...

That's one of the best moments with TIM where he says "Regardless of what you think of Cerberus, of me, you're a valuable asset to humanity" showing his admiration of Shepard. Then there's the dialogue option where Shepard tells him to join her in the suicide mission, man I wish that would have happened.

I always had the suspicion that TIM's response to that comment was genuine, that it really was a tempting offer. Especially after reading Retribution.

Indeed, one of the best moments with TIM, not because of his admiration for Shepard, but because it comes across he's serious when he says it's all about the protection and advancement of humanity. Too bad that he goes back on that at the end of the game with his assertion that humanity and Cerberus are one and the same.

I wonder: Bioware has said TIM was made to represent "both the best and the worst of humanity". it would be nice if at least some of that ambiguity were kept in ME3. TIM is such an interesting character, what a waste it would be to relegate him to the role of a mustache-twirling villain. 

[Kaiser Shepard]

Seboist wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'll try all possible conversation paths with Council and without it.

Will do you do the unthinkable and destroy the base and get TIM angry? [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/surprised.png[/smilie]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Unfortunately, yes. For science. He'll understand.

Nice, then the two of ya will finally witness one of the best pieces of dialogue in the game.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 12 septembre 2011 - 10:34 .

[Ieldra]

Seboist wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
I'll try all possible conversation paths with Council and without it.

Will do you do the unthinkable and destroy the base and get TIM angry?

I did in one playthrough. TIMs anger was not a consideration. My Shepard would not be worthy of TIMs appreciation if she let herself be cowed by that.

But I replayed Again, not because of TIM's anger, but because destroying the base is stupid, no matter that Bioware tries to sell it as the right thing.

BTW, I'm getting more and more convinced that TIM would be the best LI for a female Shepard. For maleSheps we have Miranda, but there really isn't a male team member on the same level as Shepard. My main femShep hasn't romanced anyone so far and she knows why.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 12 septembre 2011 - 10:36 .

[Dave of Canada]

I've encountered a minor problem with the TIM dialogue, I've started to record it but it doesn't have subtitles. I assume nobody really cares about subtitles considering it's Martin freaking Sheen but just wondering if I should restart while early in the project for the subtitles.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Seboist wrote...

That's one of the best moments with TIM where he says "Regardless of what you think of Cerberus, of me, you're a valuable asset to humanity" showing his admiration of Shepard. Then there's the dialogue option where Shepard tells him to join her in the suicide mission, man I wish that would have happened.

I always had the suspicion that TIM's response to that comment was genuine, that it really was a tempting offer. Especially after reading Retribution.

Indeed, one of the best moments with TIM, not because of his admiration for Shepard, but because it comes across he's serious when he says it's all about the protection and advancement of humanity. Too bad that he goes back on that at the end of the game with his assertion that humanity and Cerberus are one and the same.

I always felt like Shepard sarcastically asked TIM to come along...

I wonder: Bioware has said TIM was made to represent "both the best and the worst of humanity". it would be nice if at least some of that ambiguity were kept in ME3. TIM is such an interesting character, what a waste it would be to relegate him to the role of a mustache-twirling villain.

I doubt that Walters pushed "his" character into such a major role just to have him decay into a standard villain, but we'll see.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 12 septembre 2011 - 10:35 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I've encountered a minor problem with the TIM dialogue, I've started to record it but it doesn't have subtitles. I assume nobody really cares about subtitles considering it's Martin freaking Sheen but just wondering if I should restart while early in the project for the subtitles.

I would prefer there being subtitles, but I don't want you to restart if you don't feel like doing so...

[Seboist]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'll try all possible conversation paths with Council and without it.

Will do you do the unthinkable and destroy the base and get TIM angry? [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/surprised.png[/smilie]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Unfortunately, yes. For science. He'll understand.

Nice, then the two of ya will finally witness one of the best pieces of dialogue in the game.

Pfft, I already destroyed the base myself with my Pure Paragon Shepard*.

* Which I've since retconned into being a Paragade or in other words a real character.

[Dave of Canada]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

I would prefer there being subtitles, but I don't want you to restart if you don't feel like doing so...

It's only two conversations, nothing much. I've restarted!

[Seboist]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
I'll try all possible conversation paths with Council and without it.

Will do you do the unthinkable and destroy the base and get TIM angry?

I did in one playthrough. TIMs anger was not a consideration. My Shepard would not be worthy of TIMs appreciation if she let herself be cowed by that.

But I replayed Again, not because of TIM's anger, but because destroying the base is stupid, no matter that Bioware tries to sell it as the right thing.

BTW, I'm getting more and more convinced that TIM would be the best LI for a female Shepard. For maleSheps we have Miranda, but there really isn't a male team member on the same level as Shepard. My main femShep hasn't romanced anyone so far and she knows why.

Yeah,  I hate playing as a Renegon femshep that's an alpha female but only gets a bunch of chump underlings that act as lapdogs that bark at her every command as LI.  Besides that, Kaidan is the only one that I can take seriously but he suffers from the aforementioned issue of being too submissive(Femshep can even use her magic vagina to renegade him).

TIM would be the best femshep LI without a doubt with Zaeed taking second place. TIM has looks,charm,charisma, wealth and power. He has everything to make a woman happy.


Oh and I don't think the "Cerberus is humanity" line was meant to be taken literally.

[Xilizhra]

Like I said in the start of the thread TIM = First enchanter Orisino.

Not in the slightest. For one thing, Orsino was actually a decent person. For another, Orsino's downfall wasn't story-related in the slightest; the devs just wanted another boss battle.

Yep. It was very inspiring to hear TIM recognize your achievements and your worth. He's the only one who openly praises you. "You're a valuable asset to humanity" is the biggest compliment coming from him. And since he represents at least a fraction of humanity and the Earth, his words have a lot of significance. The rest of humanity turned their back on me.

Which is actually quite clever, both by the writers and TIM himself. He knows Shepard's been ill-treated and hasn't had much acknowledgement from anyone, and comments like that can be a valuable way of increasing allegiance.

I thought so too. The whole ambiguity surrounding him is in stark contrast to the majority of all the others where what you see on the surface is all there is to be seen and thus makes him the best character in the franchise. Moments like that and when he gets misty eyed in the bad ending prove that he isn't this one note b-movie assclown villain that his haters on here see him as.

I don't think he's one-note; he's a clever, nuanced sort of evil. Though I do think his grin in the Renegade ending was... well, politely put, ominous, and it was reasonably foreshadowed that Cerberus would show a darker color in the future.

Pfft, I already destroyed the base myself with my Pure Paragon Shepard*.

* Which I've since retconned into being a Paragade or in other words a real character.

You know, it's not that hard for pure Paragon to be an actual character (well, almost pure; she kills Balak's lieutenant).

Yeah, I hate playing as a Renegon femshep that's an alpha female but only gets a bunch of chump underlings that act as lapdogs that bark at her every command as LI.

Then take Liara. She's running her own information brokering empire now; that has to count for something.

[Seboist]

Another great shot of the man himself that can be used as a wallpaper.



I must say he's one of the best looking males in ME if not THE best looking.

[Kaiser Shepard]

laecraft wrote...

Actually, I think the reason why it annoyed me so much is meta. I just realized that in this particular game, we're not getting any information on the Reapers. And I'm not much into "unknowable" threat. I like fiction for its meaningful experience. I like stripping the veil of fear and mystery off your opponent to reveal the truth inside.

In life, stuff happens that we never understand, and we often can't make sense of anything. In fiction, however, I want understanding, a revelation, an insight, and just some kind of making sense of the universe. The experience loses its power when you don't understand what's happening.

That's why the hero is always in the middle of things, and pretty much the only one who's informed of what's really going on. The rest of the galaxy is all confused by all those random explosions, and they don't know what to think, and they're in the dark, but my Shepard knows exactly what it's all about, how, and why.

I want to know what drives my enemy. Their motivation. I want opposition of our very ideas, not just our guns.

Bah, "what does it matter" - still annoys me. I matters to me. It makes all the difference between a story and a shooter.

It shouldn't matter, the only thing that does is stopping them, as Saphra surprisingly said.

All this while the Reapers were initially more like a force of nature than a enemy you needed to understand. As Sovereign so aptly put it, they simply are, and that was enough for me. Should've been enough for you. The Reapers started out as an intimidating enemy. Hell, just Sovereign was intimidating enough. 

Sadly enough, the majority of the fanbase and dev team seem to be with you on this one, hence why we got the Human Reaper and hence why we'll get at least a couple more useless and rather weak "reveals" like that; stuff like visiting the Reaper homeworld is pretty much a given right now. Now they're slowly but surely being deconstructed, and become less and less interesting to the point where I now considering the more human, more charismatic TIM as my Shepard's nemesis.

Once again, I wouldn't be surprised if that is what Walters was going for from the beginning, but meh...

Goddess, still can't believe we're getting crap like a Prothean squaddie as well now. Another thing people like you have wanted from the very beginning...

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 12 septembre 2011 - 10:39 .

[Seboist]

I never found the Reapers all that interesting. I preferred going around playing space gestapo for Hackett in ME1 than fighting them or their Geth minions(who I also considered unremarkable before meetting Legion).