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Brotherhood of Cerberus - The Illusive Man Discussion/Support Thread

Débuté par Lambda Faction , juil. 09 2011 10:26

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#451
Ashwraith
Posté 12 septembre 2011 - 11:23

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zingro wrote...
Good god why am I posting in this dark scary thread :blink: must be my renegade character taking over.


Aw, don't be scared, zingro. We don't bite!
...Hard.


Hey, you were the one that brought Austin Powers references into this thread. Don't look at me like that.

laecraft wrote...
This is TIM, the way I'll always remember him:

-awesomepicsnip-

"Be careful, Shepard."


*BLUB*
;3;

Seboist wrote...

I never found the Reapers all that interesting. I preferred going around playing space gestapo for Hackett
in ME1 than fighting them or their Geth minions (who I also considered unremarkable before meetting Legion).


I find myself caring less and less about the Reapers, the more we learn (supposedly) about their goals and intentions. It probably comes of growing up with H.P. Lovecraft- what made his antagonists so convincingly scary (or at least intimidating) was that practically nothing was explained about them. They were too vast, too alien, too different to comprehend, and the harder the characters tried, the worse things became for them.

That was what I was hoping for with this-here fleet of mecha Cthulhu: an unstoppable, unknowable force that plows down civilizations for reasons entirely beyond our scope of comprehension.

Instead, it turns out they're just making more of themselves. And, oh yeah, a small squad can take two of them down (granted, the first time was indirect and the second time was an infant, but still).

Cosmic Horrors, I am disappoint.




...I still kind of want to ghosthack one of them, though. >.>

Modifié par Ashwraith, 12 septembre 2011 - 11:38 .

#452
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Posté 12 septembre 2011 - 11:30

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Xilizhra wrote...

Yep. It was very inspiring to hear TIM recognize your achievements and your worth. He's the only one who openly praises you. "You're a valuable asset to humanity" is the biggest compliment coming from him. And since he represents at least a fraction of humanity and the Earth, his words have a lot of significance. The rest of humanity turned their back on me.

Which is actually quite clever, both by the writers and TIM himself. He knows Shepard's been ill-treated and hasn't had much acknowledgement from anyone, and comments like that can be a valuable way of increasing allegiance.


TIM's motivations are always multi-layered, which is what makes him so interesting and fascinating. He never said anything to Shepard that didn't serve to further his own goals. (That's why I want a normal conversation with him for once, without any hidden agenda.) That doesn't mean, however, that he can't be sincere when he says that to Shepard.

He's clever, there's no mistake about that. Throughout the game, he constantly praises your success, doesn't even reprimand you even when you go against his agenda, and lets you make your decisions on crucial matters. He encourages you and gives support. He provides you with ship, weapons, resources, companions, and a safe haven, where you're surrounded by people who don't think that you're insane. He's the best ally Shepard's ever had.

Especially after Udina, who's always unhappy about everything, and the Council, who berates you no matter what you do, no matter how stunning your successes are, and who keep calling you mentally unbalanced. It's a stark contrast to working with someone who wants to destroy the Reapers as much as you do.

#453
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Posté 13 septembre 2011 - 12:01

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Kaiser Shepard wrote...

It shouldn't matter, the only thing that does is stopping them, as Saphra surprisingly said.

All this while the Reapers were initially more like a force of nature than a enemy you needed to understand. As Sovereign so aptly put it, they simply are, and that was enough for me. Should've been enough for you. The Reapers started out as an intimidating enemy. Hell, just Sovereign was intimidating enough. 

Sadly enough, the majority of the fanbase and dev team seem to be with you on this one, hence why we got the Human Reaper and hence why we'll get at least a couple more useless and rather weak "reveals" like that; stuff like visiting the Reaper homeworld is pretty much a given right now. Now they're slowly but surely being deconstructed, and become less and less interesting to the point where I now considering the more human, more charismatic TIM as my Shepard's nemesis.

Once again, I wouldn't be surprised if that is what Walters was going for from the beginning, but meh...

Goddess, still can't believe we're getting crap like a Prothean squaddie as well now. Another thing people like you have wanted from the very beginning...


Familiarity breeds contempt, is it? It's the reverse for me. I prefer my enemy to be a little more than a target to shoot at. And a force of nature is a very boring enemy. You can't properly converse with it. You can't engage in a fist-fight with it. You can't even shoot at it. I don't like apocalypse movies either, where your enemy is a hurricane or a earthquake. It's a very subpar antagonist.

I suppose that's why they're switching to Cerberus as the enemy now. Human movitations are easier to work with. Humans are much more interesting than incomprehensible alien forces. You can only go with "alien and unknowable" for one scene or two without it becoming boring and far-fetched.

Story-wise, understanding your enemy is a necessity. You need to uncover their weaknesses and vulnerabilities. You need to uncover their goals, because if you know what they are, then you can do stuff like taking the things they want hostage.

And it doesn't matter that the war is already here. Your weapons are not harming them, so don't be in a hurry to rush into battle. Take your time uncovering the mysteries that could defeat your enemy. It would've been a very boring game if it consisted of nothing but star battles in space. Remember that shooting down husks does nothing to harm the Reapers. They're star ships.

Also, let the fleet handle holding the line. Other people can do research at the same time without taking anything away from the war effort.

#454
Seboist
Posté 13 septembre 2011 - 12:05

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Yeah, I always felt that they made Cerberus an enemy to draw emotional responses from the players that the Reapers couldn't. Sovereign,Harbinger,etc aren't even real characters, they're essentially just a Hurricane or a Tornado that can talk.

#455
Kaiser Shepard
Posté 13 septembre 2011 - 12:08

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Seboist wrote...

Yeah, I always felt that they made Cerberus an enemy to draw emotional responses from the players that the Reapers couldn't. Sovereign,Harbinger,etc aren't even real characters, they're essentially just a Hurricane or a Tornado that can talk.

You say that as if it's a bad thing.

Image IPB

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 13 septembre 2011 - 12:09 .

#456
Seboist
Posté 13 septembre 2011 - 12:13

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You left out an image of a talking Hurricane!

#457
Kaiser Shepard
Posté 13 septembre 2011 - 12:24

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I couldn't find an actual talking one. ;(

#458
Dave of Canada
Posté 13 septembre 2011 - 12:25

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Sovereign's first talk with Shepard is what Reapers should've been.

Harbinger was late to the meeting though, he started saying we'd feel this and that they're out salvation through destruction.

It's a damn shame we'll find out everything about the Reapers in ME3, ME2 ruined their intimidation factor a lot.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 septembre 2011 - 12:25 .

#459
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 13 septembre 2011 - 01:27

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I found the concept of a threat as huge (and ancient) as the Reapers interesting. I like the implications of just how long they've eradicated life and what this means for the current victims. However as enemies themselves I'm not that interested. I find the politics between the races a lot more interesting, which is what draws me to Cerberus and TIM.

#460
Seboist
Posté 13 septembre 2011 - 01:52

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Saphra Deden wrote...

I found the concept of a threat as huge (and ancient) as the Reapers interesting. I like the implications of just how long they've eradicated life and what this means for the current victims. However as enemies themselves I'm not that interested. I find the politics between the races a lot more interesting, which is what draws me to Cerberus and TIM.


Ever since the first game I was more interested in my Shepard rallying the non-citadel races (Rachni,Krogan,Quarian,etc) behind humanity's lead to overthrow the council triumvirate than fighting space ancient evil.

#461
Labrev
Posté 13 septembre 2011 - 02:04

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Seboist wrote...

Yeah, I always felt that they made Cerberus an enemy to draw emotional responses from the players that the Reapers couldn't. Sovereign,Harbinger,etc aren't even real characters, they're essentially just a Hurricane or a Tornado that can talk.


Personally, I love Cerberus as an enemy and overall plot-device. I mean, I don't like everything they've done with it, but I do like it.

Cerberus is interesting because of how morally-grey they are, and how you have draw lines as to where you consider them a friend, and where you consider them an enemy. And so much about them is a mystery.

Also, because they are not obvious bad guys. Saren, even when he was "good" was pretty evil. Collectors are big, dirty bugs. Bad guys are always ugly, and evil. Then you have the Illusive Man, who's suave, charismatic, and feels like he's on your side. He can't take you in a gun-fight (at least I don't think so!) but he's still extremely powerful an individual. THAT is interesting!


So anyway, I came in here to say that I have a pic of TIM on my Econ 104 notebook =] and I put the Turian Councilor for PoliSci (airquotes and all).

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 13 septembre 2011 - 02:05 .

#462
Seboist
Posté 13 septembre 2011 - 02:32

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Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Yeah, I always felt that they made Cerberus an enemy to draw emotional responses from the players that the Reapers couldn't. Sovereign,Harbinger,etc aren't even real characters, they're essentially just a Hurricane or a Tornado that can talk.


Personally, I love Cerberus as an enemy and overall plot-device. I mean, I don't like everything they've done with it, but I do like it.

Cerberus is interesting because of how morally-grey they are, and how you have draw lines as to where you consider them a friend, and where you consider them an enemy. And so much about them is a mystery.

Also, because they are not obvious bad guys. Saren, even when he was "good" was pretty evil. Collectors are big, dirty bugs. Bad guys are always ugly, and evil. Then you have the Illusive Man, who's suave, charismatic, and feels like he's on your side. He can't take you in a gun-fight (at least I don't think so!) but he's still extremely powerful an individual. THAT is interesting!


So anyway, I came in here to say that I have a pic of TIM on my Econ 104 notebook =] and I put the Turian Councilor for PoliSci (airquotes and all).


I've actually considered creating an anti-Cerberus Sheploo (with Jack as the LI!) but since nothing was done with Sole Survivor taking them to task over Akuze in ME2 I've decided against it.

What issues you have with how they've been handled?

#463
Xilizhra
Posté 13 septembre 2011 - 02:32

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The Reapers, I think, were always going to be a bit of a paper tiger. They can't really be Elder God equivalents; all pretense of that was shattered when Sovereign was actually killed, something I didn't entirely expect.

#464
Seboist
Posté 13 septembre 2011 - 02:49

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Xilizhra wrote...

You know, it's not that hard for pure Paragon to be an actual character (well, almost pure; she kills Balak's lieutenant).

.


I originally created that character just to see the Paragon outcomes and to Talimance, not to actually roleplay with. That all changed when I retconned him.

Here's a description of him that I posted in another thread.

I've role played a Spacer/War Hero as a "fallen hero" type who's gotten PTSD from the blitz and is slowly being converted from a noble hero into a ruthless anti-hero.  He slowly but surely got fed up with the council to the point he was delighted to see them die in the BOTC and in ME2 he's 100% pro-Cerberus due to owing them a debt of gratitude and his nature of being a loyal soldier who's politically apathetic for the most part.

I also made him a Talimancer (spacer background was so he could better relate to her ^_^) so it could create drama and conflict with him being 100% pro-Cerberus. The big reason he kept David in Overlord was due to his love of her,as well as the reason why he blew up the heretic Geth in Legion's LM.


#465
Xilizhra
Posté 13 septembre 2011 - 02:55

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Well, I have a basically pure Paragon Shepard whom I do roleplay with; is this somehow illegitimate?

#466
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 13 septembre 2011 - 02:58

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As long as your Shepard's actions make sense for their character I don't see the problem.

#467
Golden Owl
Posté 13 septembre 2011 - 03:06

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Saphra Deden wrote...

As long as your Shepard's actions make sense for their character I don't see the problem.

It is interesting watching what feels like the right kind of changes for our Sheps too though...I had been thinking about my Shep saving the hostages in 'Bring Down The Sky' in ME1 and stick by that in how he feels to me...but come furthering into the story in ME2, I feel my Shep would sacrifice those hostages if something similar had come up about half way through ME2....Paragon Shep to me just feels more jaded and hardened up in ME2....maybe that's just my perception and feel about my own Shep, I don't know.

Modifié par Golden Owl, 13 septembre 2011 - 03:06 .

#468
Labrev
Posté 13 septembre 2011 - 03:53

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Seboist wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Yeah, I always felt that they made Cerberus an enemy to draw emotional responses from the players that the Reapers couldn't. Sovereign,Harbinger,etc aren't even real characters, they're essentially just a Hurricane or a Tornado that can talk.


Personally, I love Cerberus as an enemy and overall plot-device. I mean, I don't like everything they've done with it, but I do like it.

Cerberus is interesting because of how morally-grey they are, and how you have draw lines as to where you consider them a friend, and where you consider them an enemy. And so much about them is a mystery.

Also, because they are not obvious bad guys. Saren, even when he was "good" was pretty evil. Collectors are big, dirty bugs. Bad guys are always ugly, and evil. Then you have the Illusive Man, who's suave, charismatic, and feels like he's on your side. He can't take you in a gun-fight (at least I don't think so!) but he's still extremely powerful an individual. THAT is interesting!


So anyway, I came in here to say that I have a pic of TIM on my Econ 104 notebook =] and I put the Turian Councilor for PoliSci (airquotes and all).


I've actually considered creating an anti-Cerberus Sheploo (with Jack as the LI!) but since nothing was done with Sole Survivor taking them to task over Akuze in ME2 I've decided against it.

What issues you have with how they've been handled?


Well the fact they're likely against you in ME3 was incredibly predictable. As someone that picked up ME2 as a new player and basically didn't get what was going on for 98% of the ride, the one message I got loud-and-clear was that I shouldn't trust Cerberus. Literally every damn person other than Miranda told me so (and Miranda obviously had her own bias).

They also fail far too much to be taken seriously. Anyone who's seen the real world knows that a track record like that of Cerberus' doesn't hack it for any working organization. You see occaisional strokes of brilliance and some success, but overall, they are a joke. To make a football analogy, think Oakland Raiders. You see some amazing wins out of that team because they are loaded with athletic young players, but they are so dysfunctional overall that they are effectively a perrenial laughing-stock.

Imagine if they were, instead, a group with a high operation-success rate while maintaining an overall ethically-questionable way of being. Suddenly, the idea of just opposing them on everything they do is no longer an obvious choice, and is actually a hard position to take.

#469
Dave of Canada
Posté 13 septembre 2011 - 03:57

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Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

They also fail far too much to be taken seriously. Anyone who's seen the real world knows that a track record like that of Cerberus' doesn't hack it for any working organization.


The same occurs in real life with organizations which don't announce their advances or progress in public, one doesn't have to look far to notice people insulting organizations. I've seen a lot of flak from the people toward the F.B.I, does that mean all the F.B.I does is screw up?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 septembre 2011 - 03:59 .

#470
BioFan (Official)
Posté 13 septembre 2011 - 04:20

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I SAW MARTIN SHEEN IN WHOLE FOODS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Image IPB

#471
Augustei
Posté 13 septembre 2011 - 04:22

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Ericander77 wrote...

I SAW MARTIN SHEEN IN WHOLE FOODS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Image IPB



!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! =O =O =O!!!

Did you get his autograph?

#472
BioFan (Official)
Posté 13 septembre 2011 - 04:25

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XxDeonxX wrote...

Ericander77 wrote...

I SAW MARTIN SHEEN IN WHOLE FOODS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Image IPB



!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! =O =O =O!!!

Did you get his autograph?



i didn't want to annoy him.... ya know?


he was out shopping, plus... i dont trust cerberus Image IPB lol


i do kinda regret not getting it now

Modifié par Ericander77, 13 septembre 2011 - 04:25 .

#473
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 13 septembre 2011 - 04:30

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Cerberus doesn't fail nearly as much as people think. Most people on this forum will take any fatalities during a Cerberus operation and declare the entire shebang a total failure. That rarely ever happens with them.

If I had my list handy I'd post it.

#474
Xilizhra
Posté 13 septembre 2011 - 04:33

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Well, I'm not sure if it matters anymore, as it looks like Cerberus has set sail for massive fail with no turning back.

#475
BioFan (Official)
Posté 13 septembre 2011 - 04:39

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Xilizhra wrote...

Well, I'm not sure if it matters anymore, as it looks like Cerberus has set sail for massive fail with no turning back.




any enemy of shepard is bound to lose, exept mabye the reapers....
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