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[Killjoy Cutter]

Unfortunately, if you choose to pragmatically concentrate on saving the Citadel and the millions on board, and on stopping the Reapers, the game and the NPCs all act like you actively murdered the Council and the thousands of crew and passengers on the DA...

[MisterJB]

John Renegade wrote...
Remember, the Council still doesn't believe it's the Reapers, they know that staying there means higher risks for them, than trying to get away deeper into the Widow nebula (where they would be basically unfindable, that's one of the nebula's defensive properties - of course, they could not fire a single shot as not to be detected and thus could not help in the battle).

That's hard to determine. We don't know how the Geth were positioned, how many of them were left after the humans arrived, how many Council ships were engaging them.

Modifié par MisterJB, 21 novembre 2011 - 09:48 .

[MisterJB]

MisterJB wrote...

John Renegade wrote...
Remember, the Council still doesn't believe it's the Reapers, they know that staying there means higher risks for them, than trying to get away deeper into the Widow nebula (where they would be basically unfindable, that's one of the nebula's defensive properties - of course, they could not fire a single shot as not to be detected and thus could not help in the battle).

That's hard to determine. We don't know how the Geth were positioned, how many of them were left after the humans arrived, how many Council ships were engaging them.

Which also applies to the point I myself was trying to make, to be fair. It's almost impossible to say what was the best option for the DA after being rescued by humanity. We just don't know the layout of the battlefield.

[Dean_the_Young]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

John Renegade wrote...

Once again, why should the DA risk itself to fight "some geth", when they can regroup somewhere else?

Because it's the duty of the *flagship* of the *Citadel Fleet* to defend *the Citadel*, the universally acknowledged center of Galactic civilization and the Mass Relay network? 

In other words, because not every non-Human is both an idiot and a coward?

Here's something that makes no sense to me, then:  why would the Council try to evacuate on the same ship that is tasked with directly engaging the enemy? 

1) Dreadnaughts are long-range, and the Battle of the Citadel is short range.

2) The Council thinks it can retreat, regroup, and come back with a more organized force.

[Dean_the_Young]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

John Renegade wrote...

Once again, why should the DA risk itself to fight "some geth", when they can regroup somewhere else?

Because it's the duty of the *flagship* of the *Citadel Fleet* to defend *the Citadel*, the universally acknowledged center of Galactic civilization and the Mass Relay network? 

In other words, because not every non-Human is both an idiot and a coward?

Strangely, you two statements aren't equivalent. After all, the commander of the Destiny Ascension ordered the abandonment of the Citadel in the first minute of the battle. The station was already considered 'lost' in the first phase of the battle.

Losing the Destiny Ascension, rather than returning to lead a glorious victory, would only compound the self-admitted defeat that prompted turning the DA into a life-boat in the first place.

[Ultai]

www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/11/21/game-logic-vs-choice-consequence/

Interesting read.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

John Renegade wrote...

Once again, why should the DA risk itself to fight "some geth", when they can regroup somewhere else?

Because it's the duty of the *flagship* of the *Citadel Fleet* to defend *the Citadel*, the universally acknowledged center of Galactic civilization and the Mass Relay network? 

In other words, because not every non-Human is both an idiot and a coward?

Here's something that makes no sense to me, then:  why would the Council try to evacuate on the same ship that is tasked with directly engaging the enemy? 

1) Dreadnaughts are long-range, and the Battle of the Citadel is short range.
2) The Council thinks it can retreat, regroup, and come back with a more organized force.

That makes sense, because it doesn't ask the DA to be two different things at once.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Ultai wrote...

www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/11/21/game-logic-vs-choice-consequence/

Interesting read.

Very nice article.  I hope the Bioware crew has read that...

[HiroVoid]

Ultai wrote...

www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/11/21/game-logic-vs-choice-consequence/

Interesting read.

That reminds me that I still think Alpha Protocol did the best job at reacting to your decisions.  Kill a lot of people? Noted.  Stealth'd in?  Noted.  Killed cops or CIA?  Noted.  Made someone like you or hate you?  Noted.  Main choices?  Noted.  Gives different endings?  Yep.  Even the ways you specialize your skills and what you wear can sometimes get noted.

[Dean_the_Young]

There's also other symbolism of continuity to be bandied about. The theme of three, which is pretty fundamental in our minds.

You can't simply tie the DA and the Citadel together without also factoring in the Council. The DA is not just a ship to protect a space station. Rather than a duality, it's a triad: the Council (the mind of Galactic Unity), the Citadel (the heart of Galaxy Unity), and the Council Fleet (the muscle, or body, of Galactic Unity). They could be divided into three equal parts of the idea of galactic unity: mind, spirit, and body.

Triad's are stabilizing concepts. They work together to enforce an idea, but also offer redundancy. The loss of one is not fatal in and of itself, as two can sustain for at least a little while.

When the Council abandoned the Citadel, they weren't abandoning the principal of galactic unity even if they did have to abandon the heart of it. As long as they lived, so did the mind, and as long as the Destiny Ascension (the representative of the strength) existed, even the initial defeat could be overcome on a symbolic level. The preservation of at least two of the three sources of galactic legitimacy would sustain the system... whereas the loss of two of them (if just the Council died, or if the entire Citadel strength was wiped out) would fracture their grip on power.

In a sense, that is what happens with the Renegade system. Humanity kills the mind and the body, even as it takes the heart of galactic power, and has been building its own 'mind' (the Human-dominated Council) and body (the Human-dominated Council Fleet) to replace the old.

Preserving both the Council and Destiny Ascension isn't simply a matter of tactical application: it's a means to ensure the continuity of legitimacy as the galactic leader.



Or maybe they just like the life boat with the strongest shields.

[Ultai]

HiroVoid wrote...

Ultai wrote...

www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/11/21/game-logic-vs-choice-consequence/

Interesting read.

That reminds me that I still think Alpha Protocol did the best job at reacting to your decisions.  Kill a lot of people? Noted.  Stealth'd in?  Noted.  Killed cops or CIA?  Noted.  Made someone like you or hate you?  Noted.  Main choices?  Noted.  Gives different endings?  Yep.  Even the ways you specialize your skills and what you wear can sometimes get noted.

I need to finish that game up, but Skyrim.

[Sebby]

HiroVoid wrote...

Ultai wrote...

www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/11/21/game-logic-vs-choice-consequence/

Interesting read.

That reminds me that I still think Alpha Protocol did the best job at reacting to your decisions.  Kill a lot of people? Noted.  Stealth'd in?  Noted.  Killed cops or CIA?  Noted.  Made someone like you or hate you?  Noted.  Main choices?  Noted.  Gives different endings?  Yep.  Even the ways you specialize your skills and what you wear can sometimes get noted.

That's Kaiser's favorite game for a reason.

[Ravensword]

That game got mixed reviews.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Most of the reviews of AP I've read make it sound more frustrating and convoluted, as if it's specifically designed to confound you.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Um... the cutscenes of the battle appeared to show Sovereign and the Geth dropping out of FTL... which would be the start of the battle.

[Dean_the_Young]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Preserving both the Council and Destiny Ascension isn't simply a matter of tactical application: it's a means to ensure the continuity of legitimacy as the galactic leader.

That's a poor reason. This battle might as well be the end game. If you lose that's it, it's over. No second chances. There will be continuity of anything other than death. No future politics, no turmoil, just extinction.

I'm sorry: I should have put [/blatant nonsense] on that post.

[Killjoy Cutter]

You do realize that it's impossible to actually establish a standoff blockade in space, right? Space is big, you are small, and FTL means that you don't know the enemy is there until he's already past you. Sovereign's fleet isn't shown coming in by mass relay, they're shown dropping out of FTL.

And what is shown is what matters, not fan speculation.

[Dean_the_Young]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Losing the Destiny Ascension, rather than returning to lead a glorious victory, would only compound the self-admitted defeat.

Which is why the DA was heading straight for Sovereign, in what I understand to be her last stand.

It wasn't. The DA was heading away from the battle.

What you are suggesting, and Saphra had been insisting (and blocked me for disagreeing with, btw please unblock me Saphra, I love you), is that the DA is a 'giant lifeboat', which serves only as a means of escape for the cowardly Council.

That is it's role. The Citadel was being abandoned. The Council was moved on board. Then the DA was to make it's retreat.

Apart from how unreasonably stupid that idea is (as I have said 3 times before, if they're fleeing they should have taken a smaller, faster, stealthier ship, and would have headed away from the oncoming invasion, instead of directly towards it), that idea also presupposes that the Council, the captain of the DA and her 3000 crew, are all (in addition to being idiots with zero sense of direction) utterly despicable cowards.

The only 'stealthy' ships at the time are the Normandy type, and there's no reason to believe they had any. Nor is there any real reason to believe there was a safer 'away' route from the Geth that the Council could reach.


It really has nothing to do with personal cowardliness. Continuity of government is a vital aspect of government stability and effective resistance: the Council serves nothing if it stays in the Council chambers to die at Saren's hands.

Throughout the ME saga Commander Shepard has known 2 Turians, 2 Asari, and 1 Salarian on a personal level: Garrus Vakarian, Saren Arterius, Liara T'Soni, Justicar Samara, and Mordin Solus. They are all phenomenally courageous and resourceful people. I have no reason to believe that the core of the Citadel Fleet led by its flagship would be manned by a crew any inferior to these individuals I know.

Leaving behind the classic army/marine vs. navy opinions...

The Destiny Ascension is a ship made specifically for long range battles. In the course of the battle, it was already out of its element. It also had a job to do... and that job it could do was evacuating the galactic governing aparatus to live and fight another day.

[Dean_the_Young]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

You do realize that it's impossible to actually establish a standoff blockade in space, right? Space is big, you are small, and FTL means that you don't know the enemy is there until he's already past you. Sovereign's fleet isn't shown coming in by mass relay, they're shown dropping out of FTL.

And what is shown is what matters, not fan speculation.

Well, what is shown doesn't actually disprove Mass Relay travel. Given drift, and we don't need to see the receiving relay to have relay travel. (In fact, I can't think of many times where both sides of a relay are shown: usually it's only the sending side.)


In Mass Effect, however, blockading Relays is a practice. Not necessarily applicable in this case (Sovereign and the Geth could have accessed an unknown one, or wiped out the patrols, or done slow-FTL), but just for future reference for others.

[Dean_the_Young]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

FTL is crap compared to relay technology (according to Kaidan).

You'd have to travel at up to 100,000,000 times the speed of light to go from Geth Space to the Citadel in one second. If you really believe that's what happened, I can give you a detailed explanation why that is unfeasible, incredibly wasteful, and impossible.

Sure, treat video game cutscenes as historical documents rather than artistic rendering. We can have fun with the same game in different ways.

First off, let's note some things.

Reapers can cross good parts of the galaxy on their own via 'slow' FTL. 'Comparative' isn't the same as absolute, and unless there's pressing reason NOT to, there's no major problem with a slower approach. It is possible (it's positively routine), and it can have practical application.

Reapers know all the Mass Relays, which the Council doesn't. We know the Council has stopped trying to open and explore the entire Mass Relay network. Sovereign could well go by 'unknown' relays to find a path to the Citadel, or close enough.

The existence of secondary relays with one-way projection means a relay pair isn't even needed. A relay from Geth space, or undiscovered elsewhere, would be enough to enable a surprise attack by storm.