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Brotherhood of Cerberus - The Illusive Man Discussion/Support Thread

Débuté par Lambda Faction , juil. 09 2011 10:26

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#4851
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Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 12:51

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Saphra Deden wrote...

The Normandy was primarily an Alliance project. The turians and Council were only brought in on it for political and espionage reasons. The telling thing about it is who paid for most of it and who owns it: hint, it isn't the turians or the Council. The Alliance owns the ship.

Sure. The Taiwanese government owns several Kidd class destroyers, paid most for them, and like to think they're state of the art too. But ask yourself who developed the Thanix Cannon? The Silaris Armor?

Ask yourself as well whether the Normandy even fits with turian military doctrine: it doesn't. 

False. There isn't a successful military doctrine without covert ops elements to it (I dare you to give a RL example). Saren and Nihilus were both Turian, along with many other Turian Spectres.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 23 novembre 2011 - 01:01 .

#4852
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 01:30

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

Sure. The Taiwanese government owns several Kidd class destroyers, paid most for them, and like to think they're state of the art too. But ask yourself who developed the Thanix Cannon? The Silaris Armor?


Uhh... what's your point? We were talking about the Normandy.

Not very sharp, are you?

iOnlySignIn wrote...

False.


No. Turian military doctrine is all brute force. I'm sure they have special forces, but the emphasis on such tactics is is quite lacking. The turians would not want to spend all that money on a new fleet of ships they will hardly lose. Consider that even among the more liberal Alliance it is met with resistance.

It was an Alliance project. It was Alliance technology. It is an Alliance ship. It is one of a kind in ME1.

#4853
Xilizhra
Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 04:00

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Both choice and consequences are real (if they weren't, you'd have no ground to complain because everything would be the same), and both are in fact viable for saving the galaxy. I'm surprised that the fact that the Renegade path carries more costs is complained about by those who, by taking Renegade, are effectively saying they don't care about cost that much


I'm not surprised that this would confuse you, Xilizhra.

Maybe we don't want all costs. Maybe, just maybe, we'd like to gain something every now and then too. Why should one path be costly and the other path cost nothing?

You know, don't bother answering unless you can write something intelligent.

Doesn't the Paragon path have costs to you like keeping too many idiots alive, such as the Council? I know that Dean's talked about killing them for its own sake, to shake the status quo, which would be considered a gain under your own standards of morality. For example.

#4854
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 04:02

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Xilizhra wrote...

Doesn't the Paragon path have costs to you like keeping too many idiots alive, such as the Council?


How is that a cost either for Shepard or for the player?

#4855
Xilizhra
Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 04:07

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Doesn't the Paragon path have costs to you like keeping too many idiots alive, such as the Council?


How is that a cost either for Shepard or for the player?

You lack the chance to slice away the triracial dominance scheme you believe is already in place and replace it with something more favorable to you?

#4856
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 04:09

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Xilizhra wrote...

You lack the chance to slice away the triracial dominance scheme you believe is already in place and replace it with something more favorable to you?


Here is how that translated into the game Xilizhra: NOTHING.

You don't even get to meet the Council and as it turns out there never was a human-only Council. Pity. That would have been interesting and exciting.

There is no benefit what-so-ever to having the old Council die. Cerberus Daily News countered the fleet build-up and even countered the chilly relations.

Killing Udina also undoes his little police state. Again. Pity.

#4857
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Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 04:10

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Saphra Deden wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Sure. The Taiwanese government owns several Kidd class destroyers, paid most for them, and like to think they're state of the art too. But ask yourself who developed the Thanix Cannon? The Silaris Armor?

Uhh... what's your point? We were talking about the Normandy.

Not very sharp, are you?

Ever heard of a thing called RL analogy? Have you thought about how different nations IRL cooperate in joint military projects before you rashly come to conclusions about how it happend in the ME universe? Which ship are the Thanix Cannon and Silaris Armor technologies used on?

I'm being sharp enough to make you get pissed off and block me. That's sharp enough for you, and therefore sharp enough for BSN (considering you are one of the sharpest here).

No. Turian military doctrine is all brute force. I'm sure they have special forces, but the emphasis on such tactics is is quite lacking. The turians would not want to spend all that money on a new fleet of ships they will hardly lose. 

Since when did you become an expert on Turian military doctrines? Where do you get such information?

For one thing, the Turian military is inspired by the Romans according to the writers. The Romans were everything except brute force.

It was an Alliance project. It was Alliance technology. It is an Alliance ship. It is one of a kind in ME1.

This kind of language is fit for Cerberus/Alliance/Terra Firma propaganda, but not for a debate with me. Do you seriously intend to convince me just by reasserting the same point vehemently?

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 23 novembre 2011 - 04:11 .

#4858
Xilizhra
Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 04:12

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You don't even get to meet the Council and as it turns out there never was a human-only Council. Pity. That would have been interesting and exciting.

Also completely absurd. You'd have human representatives for nonhuman governments? It makes no sense and would invite very swift open rebellion.

There is no benefit what-so-ever to having the old Council die. Cerberus Daily News countered the fleet build-up and even countered the chilly relations.

Which had nothing to do with the initial choice in ME1; it was just a random news report in ME2.

#4859
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Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 04:16

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Xilizhra wrote...

Also completely absurd. You'd have human representatives for nonhuman governments? It makes no sense and would invite very swift open rebellion.


Yeah, sure it would.

Xilizhra wrote...

Which had nothing to do with the initial choice in ME1; it was just a random news report in ME2.


I'm not going to try and explain this to you Xilizhra as it is obviously way too advanced for you.

#4860
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 04:18

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

Ever heard of a thing called RL analogy? Have you thought about how different nations IRL cooperate in joint military projects before you rashly come to conclusions about how it happend in the ME universe? Which ship are the Thanix Cannon and Silaris Armor technologies used on?


Which has nothing to do with anything. Humans did-not co-develop Silaris armor or the Thanix. When you get them for the SR2 you essentially steal them.

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Since when did you become an expert on Turian military doctrines? Where do you get such information?


Since I read the codex.

#4861
Xilizhra
Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 04:18

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I'm not going to try and explain this to you Xilizhra as it is obviously way too advanced for you.

Wait, you're passing up a chance to egotistically assert your superiority over the dull-witted masses? This isn't like you at all.

#4862
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Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 04:26

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Humans did-not co-develop Silaris armor or the Thanix. When you get them for the SR2 you essentially steal them.

So why is it so hard to believe that the stealth tech on the SR-1 was at least *partially* borrowed from/given by/stolen from/purchased from the Turians and the Council?


Since I read the codex.

Please give me the exact quote where the codex said "Turian military doctrine is all brute force." or equivalent.

Hiding behind ghost references is a very junior technique to support an invalid argument.

#4863
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 04:28

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

So why is it so hard to believe that the stealth tech on the SR-1 was at least *partially* borrowed from/given by/stolen from/purchased from the Turians and the Council?


It is never implied or said to be alien technology and we are told the Normandy is the first of its kind. Tellingly the Normandy is a human ship and its abilities fit perfectly with Alliance military doctrine. I find it hard to believe any species would share that stealth technology.


iOnlySignIn wrote...

Please give me the exact quote where the codex said "Turian military doctrine is all brute force." or equivalent.

Hiding behind ghost references is a very junior technique to support an invalid argument.


Look it up yourself.

#4864
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Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 04:36

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Saphra Deden wrote...

It is never implied or said to be alien technology

Hello? Joint project with the Turians funded by the Council? Like I said, do you even care how joint military projects work IRL?

and we are told the Normandy is the first of its kind.

For the Alliance. "Fastest ship in the Alliance". It's never called "Fastest ship in the Galaxy" or anything remotely similar.

I find it hard to believe any species would share that stealth technology.

Exactly. Any species looking out for its own interests would not share its best military technology. However, they would gladly share their less than cutting edge technology provided it's politically or financially profitable (just as the Kidd class destroyer example, which you willfully ignored).

So who's doing the sharing in the Normandy SR-1 project? It can't be the Alliance, because it's cutting edge technology for the Alliance, so why would they foolishly share them with the Turians?

Look it up yourself.

I can't find it, because it doesn't exist.

#4865
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 04:41

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

Hello? Joint project with the Turians funded by the Council? Like I said, do you even care how joint military projects work IRL?


Turian engineering and as we see the Normandy has a turian lay-out. It says nothing about where the stealth systems or drive core come from. However considering the Alliance owns and operates the ship we can deduce that they contributed by far the most to the project.

Remember: the only reason the turians were brought in was to spy on their ship building practices.

Ionlysingin wrote...

For the Alliance. "Fastest ship in the Alliance". It's never called "Fastest ship in the Galaxy" or anything remotely similar.


The Normandy is a proto-type, thus one of a kind. Everything about it is new. The aliens don't have one.

IonlySignin wrote...

So who's doing the sharing in the Normandy SR-1 project?


The turians. For the sake of improved ties they gave up some ship building secrets. Fairly minor stuff when it comes right down to it.

Turian Military Doctrine.

"Command and control is decentralized and flexible. Individual units can
call for artillery and air support. They make extensive use of combat
drone for light duties, and practice combined arms: infantry operates
with armor, supported by overhead gunships. Strategically, they are
methodical and patient, and dislike risky operations."

Modifié par Saphra Deden, 23 novembre 2011 - 04:44 .

#4866
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Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 04:45

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Considering the Alliance owns and operates the ship we can deduce that they contributed by far the most to the project.

Illogical. You own and operate a personal computer, I assume? Did you contribute by far the most to its construction and development?

Remember: the only reason the turians were brought in was to spy on their ship building practices.

Why would the Alliance let such a thing happen?

The Normandy is a proto-type, thus one of a kind. Everything about it is new. The aliens don't have one.

True. They have better stealth ships.

#4867
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 04:50

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

Illogical. You own and operate a personal computer, I assume? Did you contribute by far the most to its construction and development?


I'm just a customer who bought it. I had nothing what-so-ever to do with its design or construction. The Alliance did not buy the Normandy after someone else built it and designed it. It was their idea in the first place.

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Why would the Alliance let such a thing happen?


Wow.

iOnlySignIn wrote...

True. They have better stealth ships.


Post proof or retract.

#4868
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Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 04:51

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Saphra Deden wrote...

"Command and control is decentralized and flexible. Individual units can call for artillery and air support. They make extensive use of combat drone for light duties, and practice combined arms: infantry operates with armor, supported by overhead gunships. Strategically, they are methodical and patient, and dislike risky operations."

And you could conclude from that that "Turian military doctrine is all brute force." and that the Normandy SR-1 does not fit Turian military doctrine. Wow.

For me at least, using stealth and covert ops instead of direct confrontation is the epitome of being "methodical and patient, and dislike risky operations". But perhaps you have a more subtle grasp of the English language than I do.

#4869
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 04:54

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The turians design their military around a huge fleet and garrisons. They are said to be poor innovators. The Normandy's stealth allows it to undertake high risk operations. Otherwise no such stealth is really needed considering the expense. Remember, each Normandy costs as much as a heavy cruiser.

So with all that in mind it seems extremely unlikely that the stealth systems are a turian innovation and not a human one. If any alien ever invented anything like that it was the salarians, not the turians.

Remember Shepard's speech about how the Normandy is another example of how humans are changing the battlefield? Along with the development of fighter carriers it shows humans "thinking outside the box". That implies the Normandy is a new type of ship all together.

#4870
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Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 05:00

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Saphra Deden wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Illogical. You own and operate a personal computer, I assume? Did you contribute by far the most to its construction and development?

I'm just a customer who bought it. I had nothing what-so-ever to do with its design or construction. The Alliance did not buy the Normandy after someone else built it and designed it. It was their idea in the first place.

But it is you who stated that contribution can be deduced from ownership and operation. Beware of self-contradiction!

It seems you are unable to deduce the Alliance's sole contribution to the SR-1's development from any other source (other than vehemently asserting it).

iOnlySignIn wrote...

True. They have better stealth ships.

Post proof or retract.

It's a logical conclusion from your previous assertion that the aliens don't have any ship comparable to the Normandy. I do not support it, as I believe the aliens do have ships comparable to the Normandy.

#4871
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 05:04

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

But it is you who stated that contribution can be deduced from ownership and operation. Beware of self-contradiction!


You took my statement out of context. Deliberately, I'll wager.


It's a logical conclusion from your previous assertion that the aliens don't have any ship comparable to the Normandy. I do not support it, as I believe the aliens do have ships comparable to the Normandy.


What evidence do you have that aliens have ships with the same abilities as the Normandy, namely stealth?

#4872
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Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 05:05

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Saphra Deden wrote...

The turians design their military around a huge fleet and garrisons. They are said to be poor innovators. The Normandy's stealth allows it to undertake high risk operations. Otherwise no such stealth is really needed considering the expense. Remember, each Normandy costs as much as a heavy cruiser.

So with all that in mind it seems extremely unlikely that the stealth systems are a turian innovation and not a human one. If any alien ever invented anything like that it was the salarians, not the turians.

Remember Shepard's speech about how the Normandy is another example of how humans are changing the battlefield? Along with the development of fighter carriers it shows humans "thinking outside the box". That implies the Normandy is a new type of ship all together.

All military operations involve risk. Stealth only decreases risk, not increase them. High risk operations are carried out routinely regardless of the availability of stealth tech.

The culture of a nation cannot predict the intellectual outcome of its individual innovators. Remember who invented the compass and gunpowder.

That speech is propaganda told to a reporter, and only on the Renegade path. On the Paragon path Shepard readly admits that Turians contributed to the SR-1's development and it's a symbol of interspecies cooperation. I don't take either speech at face value since they are just Shepard's verbal manipulation of the press.

#4873
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Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 05:07

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

All military operations involve risk. Stealth only decreases risk, not increase them.


No, silly. Stealth allows you to take greater risks, like going behind enemy lines and spying.

#4874
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Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 05:09

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Saphra Deden wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

But it is you who stated that contribution can be deduced from ownership and operation. Beware of self-contradiction!


You took my statement out of context. Deliberately, I'll wager.

It's the only context, and hence no confusion is possible.

You haven't offered any argument why the SR-1 is developed solely by the Alliance other than

(1) Because the Alliance owns and operates it

and

(2) Because I, Saphra Deden, firmly believes so.

What evidence do you have that aliens have ships with the same abilities as the Normandy, namely stealth?

Must I repeat what I've already said?

(1) If the tech is exclusively Human, which makes it the BEST Human tech, why the fock would the Alliance share it with the Turians?

(2) If this is the very BEST tech from the Turians, why the fock would they share it with the Alliance?

That leaves only one possibility:

It's at least partly Turian tech, and not even the best Turian tech. 

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 23 novembre 2011 - 05:11 .

#4875
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 05:16

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

It's the only context, and hence no confusion is possible.


Oh I see. Then it seems I need to elaborate for you. I overestimated you.

The context I was referring to was one in which two parties work together to design something. In this case a space ship. The Alliance did not contract anyone to build the Normandy for it or design it. The Alliance offered others to help with the design and production in the form of money and some engineering expertise.

This is not at all the same as someone going to Best Buy and purchasing a desktop PC.

This was a joint project and be looking at whom wound up owning and operating the vessel in the end we can deduce who made the largest contribution. This is further corroborated by looking at turian culture and military doctrine to see whether a ship like the Normandy is likely to be concieved of by them in the first place.

The Alliance did not share anything with the turians that we know of.

We do know from EDI why the turians were brought in. So if you just want to call her a liar (like you do Shepard) then by all means. At that point there's nothing I can do because you are determined to throw out any sources I provide. You have yet to provide any sources of your own.
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