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[ODST 3]

So if the Illusive Man gets indoctrinated at some point between now and ME 3, why were his eyes glowing like Saren's?

[Xilizhra]

ODST 3 wrote...

So if the Illusive Man gets indoctrinated at some point between now and ME 3, why were his eyes glowing like Saren's?

He was zapped by some Reaper thingy in Evolution.

[ODST 3]

Xilizhra wrote...

ODST 3 wrote...

So if the Illusive Man gets indoctrinated at some point between now and ME 3, why were his eyes glowing like Saren's?

He was zapped by some Reaper thingy in Evolution.

That took place before ME 2 right? And in ME 2 he considered the Reapers a threat and worked against them.

[Dean_the_Young]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

But Dean, I can't find this Codex entry for one-way relays. You seem to know a lot about them. Could you kindly give me a link? I'm very curious.

Primary and secondary relays are detailed in the 'Mass Relays' at the Mass Effect wiki, for presumably obvious reasons.

A Correction is due to correct the detail, but not the underlying point. Secondary Relays can connect to any other relay within their range of hundred(s) of light years. I confused omnidirection with unidirectional. Primary relays are one-to-one over thousands of light years.

My error, and my correction. It doesn't invalidate the point that using undiscovered secondary relays could bypass the known main relays.

Also, unmanned probes (such as the ones 20th century Humans routinely deploys) do not need to return to their starting point in order to explore the Galaxy. If your one-way relays exist in the numbers you suggest, and their range is anything beyond trivial, the Galaxy would have been explored much more thoroughly than it is now.

This falls under failing to understand that Space is Big. By the codex, the Council hasn't even charted 98% of the galaxy.

I can't find the Codex entry about FTLs being undetectable either.

It should be in the 'FTL' codex, though the exact reference may actually be in the 'military tactics' section of the ME1 codex.

Instead I know from Engineer Adams in ME1 that the SR1's stealth system does *NOT* work with FTL because the radiation discharge is too powerful.

Correction: the SR1's stealth system does not cover the entry or exit out of FTL. When the Normandy slows down or speeds up, that's when the un-disguisable blue shifting occurs.

What is more, if FTL travel is undetectable, why was a ship such as the Normandy SR1 needed in the first place?

To be undetected when NOT in FTL, duh.

Patrols, covert infiltrations on planets. Besides tactical implications, the Normandy's most dedicated use is the stealthy deployment of the ground team. The Normandy can enter a planet or approach a space station without most defenses having a chance to track it.

Wouldn't any regular ship with an FTL drive have sufficed?

No. Ships in FTL can't be detected, but they can't detect anything either. Pretty sure that's the military source.

Also, are you suggesting that the Turians and the Council helped the Humans build the SR-1, the most advanced stealth ship in the galaxy (according to you), but never built a sufficient number of similar ships to deploy them in the Citadel Fleet?

Do you understand the concept of 'first'? When something is 'first', by definition there has to be some amount of time before another can exist.


More to the point, however, stealth frigates aren't defensive ships to put in the Citadel fleet. Their role is in execution of operations, like Shepard. The Council wouldn't have reason to put stealth ships on the Citadel Fleets when they could be using them in the Terminus and other places.

If that's true, then the aliens are indeed most noble and selfless. They put Humanity's needs and priorities above their own. Therefore there can be no doubt that the DA was heading straight for Sovereign for a heroic, glorious last stand. They are sacrificing their lives for the safety and prosperity of the rest of the Galaxy in general, and Humanity (their best friend) in particular.

No, not really. None of that follows what you (poorly) presumed.

The Council not having stealth frigates handy to bail out in does not necessitate that the DA was doing the opposite of what it's commander had ordered and was trying to bug out wit hthe Council.

Oh and finally, of course the Charon Relay was hidden from Humans at first. It was also hidden from the dinosaurs and every other pre-space flight species. The Asari and Salarians by contrast, have been exploring the entire galaxy via the relay network for thousands of years. Are you saying that with that amount of time, plus fast long distance FTL travel (according to you), they not only 

(1) Failed to discover a hidden relay right next (within FTL traveling distance at least) to the Citadel

The Charon relay isn't 'right beside' the Citadel in terms of relays.

And, again, you fail to understand how big space is, and how little of the galaxy the Council actually knows about. The Council hasn't even visited 98+% of the galaxy, even as it has forbidden the reactivation of new mass relays since the Rachni Wars.

(2) Failed to realize that a surprise attack on the Citadel was committed via such a hidden relay, or think of it as no big deal (in contrast to how people think the Omega-4 and Mu Relays as very curious anomalies)?

Who's claiming that? More to the point, what do you think you are countering?

'How' Sovereign got to the Citadel was never addressed one way or another at any point. So long as any exceptional exploit was later blocked from wannabe's, It was also irrelevant: Whether Sovereign found a secondary relay the Council didn't know about before hand, blitzed past the blockade on the known relays, or flew by slow FTL... it really doesn't change anything of the story.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 23 novembre 2011 - 07:41 .

[Ieldra]

*confused*

Can anyone tell me what the stuff you've been discussing on the last few pages has to do with the Illusive Man?

[General User]

This is TIM's thread!  We don't play by "the rules!"   We're RENEGADES!

Ya'll know this!

Modifié par General User, 23 novembre 2011 - 01:38 .

[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

*confused*

Can anyone tell me what the stuff you've been discussing on the last few pages has to do with the Illusive Man?

Actually, you just reminded me of something rather funny: TIM approves regardless of what choice you make there.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

'How' Sovereign got to the Citadel was never addressed one way or another at any point. So long as any exceptional exploit was later blocked from wannabe's, It was also irrelevant: Whether Sovereign found a secondary relay the Council didn't know about before hand, blitzed past the blockade on the known relays, or flew by slow FTL... it really doesn't change anything of the story.

The original context was a claim that Sovereign and the Geth had to have fought their way into the area around the citadel before the first shot of them arriving at the Citadel. 

I countered with the factual statement that we see, in the cut scene, the moment that they arrive and the actual start of the battle.  This lead to a long series of assertions that it just wasn't possible and there must have been fighting we didn't see before that moment.  Which was countered with the factual statement that you cannot effectively blockade space beyond a point target in the Mass Effect setting -- non-relay FTL, relay drift, etc, make it impossible.

[John Renegade]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

The Alliance did not contract anyone to build the Normandy for it or design it. The Alliance offered others to help with the design and production in the form of money and some engineering expertise.

This is not at all the same as someone going to Best Buy and purchasing a desktop PC.

This was a joint project and be looking at whom wound up owning and operating the vessel in the end we can deduce who made the largest contribution. This is further corroborated by looking at turian culture and military doctrine to see whether a ship like the Normandy is likely to be concieved of by them in the first place.

The Alliance did not share anything with the turians that we know of.

We do know from EDI why the turians were brought in. So if you just want to call her a liar (like you do Shepard) then by all means. At that point there's nothing I can do because you are determined to throw out any sources I provide. You have yet to provide any sources of your own.

If the Alliance wanted cheap labor, they could have hired Humans. If they wanted money, they would have contacted the Volus. They hired Turians only because they needed military engineering experts. The Turians are good at one thing, and that is military tech.

And you think that these Turian engineers, in helping the design and production of the SR-1 and in offering their engineering expertise, where given strictly zero access to the Tantalus Drive Core and the stealth tech elements. Their only purpose there is to shape the bridge in their strange Turian style.

My argument do not need any sources more than I've already provided, since they are based on logic instead of ghost references. Any source I provide will be futile anyway, since you have avoided addressing my argument despite it being presented to you twice already. Just for the sake of completeness I'll paste it here, and please tell me which part of it need to be provided with further sources and elaborations:

======

(1) If the tech is exclusively Human, which makes it the BEST Human tech, why the fock would the Alliance share it with the Turians?

(2) If this is the very BEST tech from the Turians, why the fock would they share it with the Alliance?

That leaves only one possibility:

It's at least partly Turian tech, and not even the best Turian tech. 

CODEX - Systems Alliance: Military Doctrine


The Alliance military is of great concern to the galaxy. At first contact with the turians, they were completely inexperienced. Turian disdain turned to respect after the relief of Shanxi, where the humans surprised them with novel technologies and tactics.
The human devotion to understanding and adapting to modern space warfare stunned the staid Council races. For hundreds of years, they (the Council races) had lived behind the secure walls of long-proven technology and tactics. The Council regards the Alliance as a "sleeping giant". Less than 3% of humans volunteer to serve in their military, a lower proportion than any other species.
While competent, Alliance soldiers are neither as professional as the turians nor as skilled as the asari. Their strengths lie in fire support, flexibility, and speed. They make up for lack of numbers with sophisticated technical support (V.I.s, drones, artillery, electronic warfare) and emphasis on mobility and individual initiative.
Their doctrine is not based on absorbing and dishing out heavy shocks like the turians and krogan. Rather, they bypass enemy strong points and launch deep into their rear, cutting supply lines and destroying headquarters and support units, leaving enemies to "wither on the vine".
On defensive, the human military is a rapid reaction force that lives by Sun Tzu's maxim, "He who tries to defend everything defends nothing." Garrisons are intended for scouting rather than combat, avoiding engagement to observe and report on invaders using drones.
The token garrisons of human colonies make it easy for alien powers to secure them, for which the Alliance media criticizes the military. However, the powerful fleets stationed at phase gate nexuses such as Arcturus are just a few hours or days from any colony within their sphere of responsibility. In the event of an attack, they respond with an overwhelming force.


Next time, please, learn to search before trying to discredit someone.

Turians were beaten by humans at Shanxi because the turians used milennia old military doctrine, that is a doctrine hardly having something as advanced as, say, stealth ships in its code of conduct. If anything, advances ought to be expected from the salarians.

Also, why do you think the other races fear/disdain humanity? It's because humans are adaptive and advance much more quickly than them. It's the hallmark of humanity.

Plus, why would there be concerns in the Alliance (Mikhailovich, Ashley) about "aliens on the ship?" And them acting especially angry, when Garrus was on board? And Shepard telling Tali that Normandy is classified Alliance technology? What the Alliance has taken from the turians was maybe a design, not much more.

Modifié par John Renegade, 23 novembre 2011 - 03:48 .

[Xilizhra]

Also, why do you think the other races fear/disdain humanity? It's because humans are adaptive and advance much more quickly than them. It's the hallmark of humanity.

Actually, it's because humans are expansionist and egotistical.

[MisterJB]

The turians are expansionist and the asari are egotistical.

[Xilizhra]

True, but the combination of both without previously established allies does not for quick friends make.

[MisterJB]

Build enough dreadnoughts and everyone will want to be humanity's friend.

[Xilizhra]

And that's what the Treaty of Farixen is for.

[MisterJB]

To make sure that the "lesser species" (Council's own words, not mine) can never compete with the three governing races.

[John Renegade]

The line between adaptive and egoistical or advancement and forceful expansion is defined entirely subjectively by people talking about it. There is no objective definition.

If we want to talk about this we will need to clearly define, where that line lies and why?

It still doesn't change that humanity's wits and ability to adapt quickly were the core of it's success and the other races' biggest fear.

[General User]

I thought the Council races LIKED that humanity was expansionist!

Wasn't that a big part of the reason they supported us prior to tBoC? Because we were expanding and settling previously lawless or batarian dominated regions of the galaxy?

Modifié par General User, 23 novembre 2011 - 05:36 .