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[Xilizhra]

It still doesn't change that humanity's wits and ability to adapt quickly were the core of it's success and the other races' biggest fear.

I disagree. I believe it has to do with physical diversity of capabilities that matches that of the other Council races, that allow it to become a more significant military power. Volus are too weak and evidently aren't even very good at technological warfare, elcor think and move too slowly, and hanar are severely hampered out of their native environment. Krogan and batarians would have similar capabilities, but were cut out due to cultural reasons (krogan warmongering and batarian isolationism). Turians were also content to keep to their own affairs until the krogan attacked them and they were motivated to take a greater role in galactic politics, instantly stepping into the Council.

The reason for humanity's success is that it is, physically and culturally, the most similar species to the Council species that has been encountered in over a thousand years.

[General User]

Xili, not disagreeing, just nit-picking, but wasn't it the batarian propensity to attack and enslave others (rather than their isolationism) that led to their being "cut off"?

(and by "cut off" I of course mean: the Council didn't have the gonad-analogues to take on the batarians themselves but were willing to use humanity as their proxy to do so)

[Xilizhra]

Well, their isolationism is what led for them to not make a greater play for power in the wider galaxy, just enough of one to compete with the humans.

[John Renegade]

Xilizhra wrote...

It still doesn't change that humanity's wits and ability to adapt quickly were the core of it's success and the other races' biggest fear.

I disagree. I believe it has to do with physical diversity of capabilities that matches that of the other Council races, that allow it to become a more significant military power. Volus are too weak and evidently aren't even very good at technological warfare, elcor think and move too slowly, and hanar are severely hampered out of their native environment. Krogan and batarians would have similar capabilities, but were cut out due to cultural reasons (krogan warmongering and batarian isolationism). Turians were also content to keep to their own affairs until the krogan attacked them and they were motivated to take a greater role in galactic politics, instantly stepping into the Council.

The reason for humanity's success is that it is, physically and culturally, the most similar species to the Council species that has been encountered in over a thousand years.

Heh, I've said "core of success" not "all reasons for success". Of course different types of people have different reactions. Some only fear humans, some want to use them, some do both and some may have entirely different reasons. But still, without the adaptibility, humanity would be only another race under hierarchy's protection now, were it not for their adaptibility during the first contact war. And if they lacked the urge to advance, they probably wouldn't even mind. Thus the "core of success".

EDIT: Fixed typos.

Modifié par John Renegade, 23 novembre 2011 - 06:35 .

[Xilizhra]

Adaptability and ambition are important in humans, but no more important than they are in anyone else, and humans are no more inherently adaptable than the other Council races.

[General User]

If humans are not inherently more adaptable by nature (which may or may not actually be the case), then what about culturally?

Wouldn't our cultural diversity (commented on as being unusually high in a few places) be a source of real strength for our race as a whole?

Wouldn't our status as newcomers unto the galactic stage at the very least give us a fresh perspective on the technological and cultural norms that the rest of the galaxy has accepted for centuries if not millennia?

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

If humans are not inherently more adaptable by nature (which may or may not actually be the case), then what about culturally?

Wouldn't our cultural diversity (commented on as being unusually high in a few places) be a source of real strength for our race as a whole?

Wouldn't our status as newcomers unto the galactic stage at the very least give us a fresh perspective on the technological and cultural norms that the rest of the galaxy has accepted for centuries if not millennia?

No more than anyone else who happened to be new. Humans did invent a popular technological advance, medigel, but so far that's about it. And I don't believe that they're inherently more culturally diverse; the asari, for instance, are about as governmentally patchwork as humans. Though asari also tend to be less clannish and more understanding, so the differences may be fewer... human culture is an interesting new addition, but hardly any sort of panacea.

[John Renegade]

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

If humans are not inherently more adaptable by nature (which may or may not actually be the case), then what about culturally?

Wouldn't our cultural diversity (commented on as being unusually high in a few places) be a source of real strength for our race as a whole?

Wouldn't our status as newcomers unto the galactic stage at the very least give us a fresh perspective on the technological and cultural norms that the rest of the galaxy has accepted for centuries if not millennia?

No more than anyone else who happened to be new. Humans did invent a popular technological advance, medigel, but so far that's about it. And I don't believe that they're inherently more culturally diverse; the asari, for instance, are about as governmentally patchwork as humans. Though asari also tend to be less clannish and more understanding, so the differences may be fewer... human culture is an interesting new addition, but hardly any sort of panacea.

How goes that line Samara said about humans? "With three humans in one room there are six opinions"? I think it was something like that. I think she said several other things, but I can't remember them (I usually save Morinth).

EDIT: Or Wrex: You humans have wide range of cultures and attitudes, we krogan are all exacly alike.

Modifié par John Renegade, 23 novembre 2011 - 06:40 .

[Xilizhra]

How goes that line Samara said about humans? "With three humans in one room there are six opinions"? I think it was something like that. I think she said several other things, but I can't remember them (I usually save Morinth).

Human culture hasn't had enough time to settle as much as the other three Council races, true.

EDIT: Or Wrex: You humans have wide range of cultures and attitudes, we krogan are all exacly alike.

...
Wrex was BEING SARCASTIC.

[John Renegade]

Xilizhra wrote...

How goes that line Samara said about humans? "With three humans in one room there are six opinions"? I think it was something like that. I think she said several other things, but I can't remember them (I usually save Morinth).

Human culture hasn't had enough time to settle as much as the other three Council races, true.

EDIT: Or Wrex: You humans have wide range of cultures and attitudes, we krogan are all exacly alike.

...
Wrex was BEING SARCASTIC.

Yes, Samara was talking about the human different points of view, which belong amongst the main causes of human versatility. (thinking outside the box and all that)

Honestly the dialog with Wrex was written in a way that prevents us to come to a clean conclusion on whether or not was he sarcastic. But if you listen to Wrex describing the krogan and when you actually see how krogan think and act, you could say that empirical observation supports the sarcasm theory.

Of course, there are krogan who are exceptions to the rule, but those exceptions are really very rare. (unlike humans, who are technically all exceptions)

Modifié par John Renegade, 23 novembre 2011 - 07:32 .

[Xilizhra]

Yes, Samara was talking about the human different points of view, which belong amongst the main causes of human versatility. (thinking outside the box and all that)

Sometimes helpful, but certainly not an inherent quality.

Honestly the dialog with Wrex was written in a way that prevents us to come to a clean conclusion on whether or not was he sarcastic.

No. It doesn't. It plays when Kaidan calls Wrex a credit to his species or something like that, and Wrex basically calls him a moron with that. His lines about krogan being too similar largely come from his own depression: by ME2, he's gotten over that and even has a krogan scientist in his employ (who clearly existed before Wrex's "have you ever seen a krogan scientist" line).

[HiroVoid]

General User wrote...

I thought the Council races LIKED that humanity was expansionist!

Wasn't that a big part of the reason they supported us prior to tBoC? Because we were expanding and settling previously lawless or batarian dominated regions of the galaxy?

Actually, yeah.  That's why they liked humanity.  They expanded further out furthering Citadel space.  That's what puts us up for Council authority, and the fact that the first contact war showed we can actually really fight helps secure that position.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...
No more than anyone else who happened to be new. Humans did invent a
popular technological advance, medigel, but so far that's about it.

Unless I'm mistaken, the four "new comer" races are us, the raloi, the kiriks (sp?), and the yahg.  Humans are unique among those three in that we were already a space faring race more or less on par with the rest of the galaxy at time of first contact, and our introduction to the Citadel system was an unprovoked war of conquest, not a diplomatic first contact mission.

And the hairless apes form planet Earth have considerably more than medigel under our collective belt: AI/VI technology, several different offensive and defensive military technologies, consumer products, the energy sector, biotechnology, the entertainment and information industries, in all these fields, human companies are mentioned as being leaders.

Xilizhra wrote...
And I don't believe that they're inherently more culturally diverse; the asari, for instance, are about as governmentally patchwork as humans.

I think the asari governmental system (high degree of local autonomy and direct democracy) works precisely because culturally the asari are such a highly uniform people. 

It's easy to include everyone's opinion and build a general consensus when most people in a given society have more or less the same opinions to begin with. 

It's also highly telling that despite having a large number of polities, asari governance is not mentioned as being very different (if different at all) from one "Republic" to the next.

Xilizhra wrote...
Though asari also tend to be less clannish and more understanding...

As individuals or as a culture/society? 

Don't forget that for asari assimilating "lesser" cultures IS their norm.  When they encounter a culture or species that they cannot assimilate (rachni, krogan, batarians, humans?) "understanding" isn't exactly the word I'd use to describe their response.  Not that I'm speaking against what they do or hneccessarily it's just... they are what they are, and they aren't angels.

Xilizhra wrote...
[H]uman culture is an interesting new addition, but hardly any sort of panacea.

It's not our place to solve another people's problems in the first place, nor they ours.

Modifié par General User, 23 novembre 2011 - 08:11 .

[Xilizhra]

And the hairless apes form planet Earth have considerably more than medigel under our collective belt: AI/VI technology, several different offensive and defensive military technologies, consumer products, the energy sector, biotechnology, the entertainment and information industries, in all these fields, human companies are mentioned as being leaders.

Leaders relatively speaking; there are only three others with whom competition would be logically important.

As individuals or as a culture/society?

Closer to the latter. Individually it varies.

Don't forget that for asari assimilating "lesser" cultures IS their norm. When they encounter a culture or species that they cannot assimilate (rachni, krogan, batarians, humans?) "understanding" isn't exactly the word I'd use to describe their response. Not that I'm speaking against what they do or hneccessarily it's just... they are what they are, and they aren't angels.

The first two tried to kill them, the third shut themselves off when a diplomatic call went against them, and the asari seem to have no difficulties with the fourth. They may not be morally perfect, but I much prefer their culture to human culture.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Depends on the human culture...

[HiroVoid]

True.....technically, every alien culture is based on different human cultures from different times.

[John Renegade]

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, Samara was talking about the human different points of view, which belong amongst the main causes of human versatility. (thinking outside the box and all that)

Sometimes helpful, but certainly not an inherent quality.

Honestly the dialog with Wrex was written in a way that prevents us to come to a clean conclusion on whether or not was he sarcastic.

No. It doesn't. It plays when Kaidan calls Wrex a credit to his species or something like that, and Wrex basically calls him a moron with that. His lines about krogan being too similar largely come from his own depression: by ME2, he's gotten over that and even has a krogan scientist in his employ (who clearly existed before Wrex's "have you ever seen a krogan scientist" line).

Your first answer is speculation. You need to have a different point of view than the majority has if you want to come to different conclusions. You think like the others and have the same basic information to work with = you have the same opinions.

The krogan scientist is percisely one of the few exceptions I was talking about. On averag, majority of the krogan will want to fight bloody battles (just as they did during the rebellions) with a few krogan wanting to try something different. Amongst humans you won't reach that strong consensus. (maybe a particular philosophy in one nation, but the same philosophy in another one with different culture only hardly)

Modifié par John Renegade, 23 novembre 2011 - 08:22 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Humans are not machines. It's quite possible for two people with very similar backgrounds, opperating from identical information, to come to entirely different conclusions.

(Identical twins, raised together, like completely different kinds of music, would be another sort of example.)

[John Renegade]

HiroVoid wrote...

True.....technically, every alien culture is based on different human cultures from different times.

Exactly. That's why the alien cultures appear to be so "static".

Modifié par John Renegade, 23 novembre 2011 - 08:25 .

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...
The first two tried to kill them, the third
shut themselves off when a diplomatic call went against them, and the
asari seem to have no difficulties with the fourth. They may not be
morally perfect, but I much prefer their culture to human
culture.

That's sort of my point. Whereas asari are culturally uniform to the extent that there can easily be said to be an "asari culture (as are most all the aliens really). There isn't any such thing as a "human culture", we have so many diverse ways of conceptualizing the universe and our place within it. So many differenet and varied philosophies and religions, nations and tribes, governmental and economic systems.

To my way of thinking, the fact that we can claim this sort of diversity is a huge mark in our favor as a species.

Modifié par General User, 23 novembre 2011 - 08:27 .

[Xilizhra]

There is, however, an Alliance culture, which is what matters most in the galaxy.

And I don't know if it's an inherently good thing either.

[John Renegade]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Humans are not machines. It's quite possible for two people with very similar backgrounds, opperating from identical information, to come to entirely different conclusions.

(Identical twins, raised together, like completely different kinds of music, would be another sort of example.)

You're right. Thats why I said "you think like the others". Different thinking makes different cultures and those cultures shape thinking in return. But originally it began with biologically determined thinking.

Now, my point is that unlike humans, who are quite individualistic, the aliens appear to largely think alike. That in return produces a really uniformal culture.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Xilizhra wrote...

There is, however, an Alliance culture, which is what matters most in the galaxy.

And I don't know if it's an inherently good thing either.

Can't be much worse than the asari culture.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

There is, however, an Alliance culture, which is what matters most in the galaxy.

And I don't know if it's an inherently good thing either.

I'm not so sure how great it is either.

But I disagree about there being an Alliance culture. 

There's an Alliance military, and an Alliance governing structure, but like the codex says, the Alliance is a collective security pact composed of the nation-states of Earth and many of the human colonies in other star systems.

I wouldn't say there's an "Alliance culture" any more than I would say there is a "NATO culture" today. Or a "British Empire culture" two hundred years ago.

Modifié par General User, 23 novembre 2011 - 08:35 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

There is, however, an Alliance culture, which is what matters most in the galaxy.

And I don't know if it's an inherently good thing either.

Can't be much worse than the asari culture.

What do you find objectionable about Asari culture?  I don't necessarily disagree with you, I'm just curious.