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The problem with the whole Cerberus/TIM thing, well one of the problems, is that there is no clear reason why wouldn't try to bring a Renegade Shepard in on his plan.
Though the ending to ME2 all of a sudden did have Renegade Shepard at odds with TIM, a little. It's irritating railroading.
Where was the dialog option to ask, "So, what's next?"
Brotherhood of Cerberus - The Illusive Man Discussion/Support Thread
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, juil. 09 2011 10:26
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#5002
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Posté 26 novembre 2011 - 04:48
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I've put "Kill TIM" in a new thread: http://social.biowar...8743147#8743147
Knock yourselves out folks.
Knock yourselves out folks.
#5003
Posté 26 novembre 2011 - 05:22
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Of course, TIM's the one who decides how TIM is going to deal with Shep, and even a Renegade Shep could be viewed as too random an element by TIM.
#5004
Posté 26 novembre 2011 - 06:39
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Saphra Deden wrote...
The problem with the whole Cerberus/TIM thing, well one of the problems, is that there is no clear reason why wouldn't try to bring a Renegade Shepard in on his plan.
Though the ending to ME2 all of a sudden did have Renegade Shepard at odds with TIM, a little. It's irritating railroading.
Where was the dialog option to ask, "So, what's next?"
Keeping the base should have presented the player the choice of a "neutral" or 'pro-Cerberus" path.
#5005
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Posté 27 novembre 2011 - 05:56
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Saphra Deden wrote...
The problem with the whole Cerberus/TIM thing, well one of the problems, is that there is no clear reason why wouldn't try to bring a Renegade Shepard in on his plan.
Though the ending to ME2 all of a sudden did have Renegade Shepard at odds with TIM, a little. It's irritating railroading.
Where was the dialog option to ask, "So, what's next?"
Even after reading through the leak, I still don't see a clear reason for anything that's happening. And "because Cerberus is evil, and has always been evil," is not a reason good enough to satisfy me. It only causes nothing but disbelief.
"Evil" is not a motive. It's not even a clear concept. Nobody does evil because they just feel like it. Everyone, villians and antagonists included, act the way they do because they're trying to do what they think is good. There MUST be a clear motive, the reason for everything. That's what fiction is about, it helps to make sense of things.
But there is no reason whatsoever for Cerberus to be the antagonists. So what do the devs do, how do they explain that Cerberus is the enemy?
Possibly spoilerific, rant.
They don't. Look at Cerberus, they're doing evil things. Look at all that puppy slaughter. Not enough reason to shoot them? Look at them commit more atrocities! NOW there's a reason for you to kill them all. Still not enough? We'll have them do another evil thing, something completely revolting, now shoot them and be done with it.
They're trying to replace motivations with a lot of action, all of that for the sheer purpose of making you to stop asking "Why?" But that doesn't work. The more evil Cerberus does, the more my bewilderment grows. The more I want to know why.
How does any of that bring Cerberus any closer to their goal? Why can't Shepard and TIM work together to achieve that goal? They're trying to do the same thing and keep getting in each other's way, you can see it even in the demo video on Sur'Kesh! Why can't they help each other, unite their efforts, only to turn on each other at the end?
Why TIM, the greatest manipulator of all time, would throw his asset away like that and not try to make use of it? What's happened to him being all scheming, where did his subtle skill go, when he could make Shepard do whatever he wanted without Shepard being aware of it? How would his actions benefit - anyone, really? Some of that is completely random and gratuitous atrocities.
And I can't really stop thinking, I can't turn off my mind like that and just shoot at the evil antagonists. The entire enjoyment of the story comes from understanding why things work the way they do, it gives us some insight into the human nature. But this doesn't make any sense.
It would've been fine if the game claimed to be simple from the start, without much story, and never pretended to be anything more than a shooter with some nice female ass, but it claimed to be more than that, and now this is what we get? This - they call it a motivation? I cannot suspend my disbelief at that! What have they done to TIM, and why? What a waste of a great character.
The sad thing is, they're going to get away with Cerberus being the antagonists, because the majority of the fan base wants to shoot Cerberus and TIM. Those fans aren't going to question what's happening and why as long as things happen their way. They'd even invent explanations why this is making perfect sense in the story, doing the writers' job for them, stitching together the canvas of Shepard's story as it's falling apart at the seams.
Renegade Shepard being antagonistic to TIM at the end of ME2, TIM not working together with Shepard in ME3, all of that is not just railroading. It's violation of the characters. This is what happens if you try to force a character into the Procrustean bed of the plot. The result is just painful and awkward.
I suppose ME3 is the big lesson on why plot must not come before character. Just take a character, define his core values, what he wants most, and let him do his thing. And if his desire is powerful enough, you might get a story. Molding and shaping the characters into the role that's needed for the plot is just not going to work.
#5006
Posté 27 novembre 2011 - 06:05
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You do realize you're reading an obviously unfinished product that was written who knows how long ago, right?
#5007
Posté 27 novembre 2011 - 06:09
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Renegade Shepard may be a colossal dickasaurus, but is apparently genre savvy enough to realize something is off when the boss' room lighting has changed to "bowels of Hell."Renegade Shepard being antagonistic to TIM at the end of ME2
#5008
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Posté 27 novembre 2011 - 06:10
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I'm starting to think perhaps complex plot, reasoning, logic, etc. don't belong to popular entertainment such as ME.
Just like how a movie does not need an exceptionally good plot to be a good movie (such as Kill Bill).
Just like how a movie does not need an exceptionally good plot to be a good movie (such as Kill Bill).
#5009
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Posté 27 novembre 2011 - 06:11
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Or maybe he's thinking "hey I've just saved the CB so perhaps now I can flip TIM off w/o consequence so why not just try it for the LOLz XD XD XD".Xilizhra wrote...
Renegade Shepard may be a colossal dickasaurus, but is apparently genre savvy enough to realize something is off when the boss' room lighting has changed to "bowels of Hell."
At least that's what I thought.
Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 27 novembre 2011 - 06:13 .
#5010
Posté 27 novembre 2011 - 06:13
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To be fair, he did the exact same thing to the Council without having just given them new technology.iOnlySignIn wrote...
Or maybe he's thinking "hey I've just saved the CB so perhaps now I can flip TIM off w/o consequence so why not just try it for the LOLz XD XD XD".Xilizhra wrote...
Renegade Shepard may be a colossal dickasaurus, but is apparently genre savvy enough to realize something is off when the boss' room lighting has changed to "bowels of Hell."
#5011
Posté 27 novembre 2011 - 06:15
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iOnlySignIn wrote...
I'm starting to think perhaps complex plot, reasoning, logic, etc. don't belong to popular entertainment such as ME.
Just like how a movie does not need an exceptionally good plot to be a good movie (such as Kill Bill).
They certainly have tried putting any of that in ME. It's just feel good politically correct black and white tripe against one note antagonists like the Reapers, Mercs or Collectors.
#5012
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Posté 27 novembre 2011 - 06:29
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The thing is that ME wasn't popular when it was first made (which I know is a tautology). When Drew, Casey, et al wrote the first draft of the story, they had zero fan expectation/pressure. BioWare had a wealth of experience from KotOR and yet total creative freedom (no Lucas Arts, no EA). Even ME1's success was nothing compared to ME2's.Seboist wrote...
They certainly have tried putting any of that in ME. It's just feel good politically correct black and white tripe against one note antagonists like the Reapers, Mercs or Collectors.
Once the popularity of a product exceeds a certain threshold, it's the consumers that dictate the next direction it takes. If the original creators insist on exercising their artistic freedom, they face a loss of profit at best and assassination attempts at worst. You can't blame a gaming company for prioritizing profit or survival.
I'm sure that ME2 enjoyed less creative freedom than ME1, and ME3 even less than ME2, despite being the last installment of the series and having more funds and resources available.
TL;DR: "We should have expected this."
Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 27 novembre 2011 - 06:31 .
#5013
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Posté 27 novembre 2011 - 07:02
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Xilizhra wrote...
Renegade Shepard may be a colossal dickasaurus, but is apparently genre savvy enough to realize something is off when the boss' room lighting has changed to "bowels of Hell."Renegade Shepard being antagonistic to TIM at the end of ME2
Oh, what's wrong with the lighting? It's a beautiful star. I want that lighting for my room.
#5014
Posté 27 novembre 2011 - 07:13
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My femshep thought the lighting would make it a nice romantic place to spend the "night" with her benefactor. <3
#5015
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Posté 27 novembre 2011 - 07:56
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iOnlySignIn wrote...
I'm starting to think perhaps complex plot, reasoning, logic, etc. don't belong to popular entertainment such as ME.
I'm starting to believe that you're right.
Most of my disappointment comes from the broken promise of a breathtaking story, grey choices, and player-controlled experience. If ME universe never tried to be complex and believable in the first place, if it never attempted to be all those things, I wouldn't mind, I'd perhaps just enjoy the simple fun. Then again, I wouldn't be that engaged in the series.
iOnlySignIn wrote...
The thing is that ME wasn't popular when it was first made (which I know is a tautology). When Drew, Casey, et al wrote the first draft of the story, they had zero fan expectation/pressure. BioWare had a wealth of experience from KotOR and yet total creative freedom (no Lucas Arts, no EA). Even ME1's success was nothing compared to ME2's.
Once the popularity of a product exceeds a certain threshold, it's the consumers that dictate the next direction it takes. If the original creators insist on exercising their artistic freedom, they face a loss of profit at best and assassination attempts at worst. You can't blame a gaming company for prioritizing profit or survival.
I'm sure that ME2 enjoyed less creative freedom than ME1, and ME3 even less than ME2, despite being the last installment of the series and having more funds and resources available.
TL;DR: "We should have expected this."
Another lesson here, then. Too much responding to feedback can destroy creative vision. The writer needs to be authoritative and even cruel. That'd make all the difference between greatness and mediocrity.
Modifié par laecraft, 27 novembre 2011 - 08:04 .
#5016
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Posté 27 novembre 2011 - 08:17
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Couldn't have said it any better.laecraft wrote...
The writer needs to be authoritative and even cruel. That'd make all the difference between greatness and mediocrity.
Take for example J.K. Rowling. She kept killing all my favorite characters (Sirius, Albus, Remus, Severus) and making the surviving ones do infuriatingly stupid things (Ron running off on Harry & Hermione). And yet those decisions made her stories realistic, believable, and moving. If she had caved in to fan pressure like BioWare does, Harry Potter would have ended up as standard FanFiction.net material.
She said in an interview that she cried like a baby herself after killing Sirius. Her husband (who is a doctor) asked why and suggested "So why don't you let him live then?" And JKR answered "Writing doesn't work like that, honey."
BioWare started magnificently in ME1 with Virmire, the Council, Udina, and Saren. After that it's mostly been selling out.
Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 27 novembre 2011 - 08:19 .
#5017
Posté 27 novembre 2011 - 09:15
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Bioware revealed themselves to be spineless hacks in the leaked docs. Characters that are popular get prominent roles by Shepard's side, while those who aren't happy go lucky and are disliked get turned into assclown saturday morning cartoon villains like Fuhrer Udina, Illusive Saren, Grand Dragon Saracino and Zaeed "Whimpering pup" Massani. The whole thing is littered with every bad fan ****** imaginable and then some.
ME3 makes Star Wars look like the Witcher.
ME3 makes Star Wars look like the Witcher.
Modifié par Seboist, 27 novembre 2011 - 09:17 .
#5020
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Posté 27 novembre 2011 - 09:33
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nevermind, reply fail
Modifié par wiggles89, 27 novembre 2011 - 09:35 .
#5021
Posté 27 novembre 2011 - 09:35
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But I don't want to do either of those things.
God I hate being railroaded.
God I hate being railroaded.
#5022
Posté 27 novembre 2011 - 09:36
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GodWood wrote...
What'd they do to Zaeed?
Zaeed ends up being hired by Cerberus again and defends some Cerberus agent or whatever against Shepard. Naturally after Space Jesus Shepard defeats him in battle s/he's presented with the choice of guiding his soul onto the proper path(ala charm in his LM in ME2) or executing him. What Shepard did or didn't do in his LM is irrelevant and Jesus Shepard suffers no penalty for letting Vido go, nor does Space troll Shepard benefit for going after him.
If Zaeed was as popular as Garrus "eternal sidekick" Vakarian you can bet he wouldn't have found himself in such a pitiful situation.
#5023
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Posté 27 novembre 2011 - 09:41
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The Zaeed fans should have complained en masse. Apparently that gets your favourite character preferential treatment.Seboist wrote...
If Zaeed was as popular as Garrus "eternal sidekick" Vakarian you can bet he wouldn't have found himself in such a pitiful situation.
#5024
Posté 27 novembre 2011 - 09:51
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Shepard's talkjutsu really ruins characters.Seboist wrote...
Zaeed ends up being hired by Cerberus again and defends some Cerberus agent or whatever against Shepard. Naturally after Space Jesus Shepard defeats him in battle s/he's presented with the choice of guiding his soul onto the proper path(ala charm in his LM in ME2) or executing him.
The way Bioware handles another 'villain' in ME3 is especially annoying. Just once I'd like a major antagonist to tell Shepard to get ****ed and spit in his face instead of saying "Oh how foolish was I to disagree with you" and then blowing their brains out.
Modifié par GodWood, 27 novembre 2011 - 09:52 .
#5025
Posté 27 novembre 2011 - 10:02
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I think it's just how it was envisioned to begin with. If you've read Retribution, it explicitly states that Shepard's relationship with TIM and Cerberus has been "uneasy at best," which leads me to believe that they never actually did plan to give the option to be purely pro-Cerberus and make it work.Saphra Deden wrote...
The problem with the whole Cerberus/TIM thing, well one of the problems, is that there is no clear reason why wouldn't try to bring a Renegade Shepard in on his plan.
Though the ending to ME2 all of a sudden did have Renegade Shepard at odds with TIM, a little. It's irritating railroading.
Where was the dialog option to ask, "So, what's next?"
Basically, it is more or less canon that Shepard cannot be 100% loyal to Cerberus. At least that's what I concluded after all this time.
