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[Zulu_DFA]

You worked for the alien Council and and under Anderson. That's enough reason for TIM to distrust your motives even if you play Cerberus-friendly in ME2. TIM might as well suspect that you would just infiltrate Cerberus and do no good, especially after you are no longer relevant as Collector bait.

[Xilizhra]

Seboist wrote...

Bioware revealed themselves to be spineless hacks in the leaked docs. Characters that are popular get prominent roles by Shepard's side, while those who aren't happy go lucky and are disliked get turned into assclown saturday morning cartoon villains like Fuhrer Udina, Illusive Saren, Grand Dragon Saracino and Zaeed "Whimpering pup" Massani. The whole thing is littered with every bad fan ****** imaginable and then some.

ME3 makes Star Wars look like the Witcher.

You do realize that "Fuhrer" and "Grand Dragon" are or were RL titles, right? Why are you making comparisons to real people to make fictional people seem unrealistic?

[Sebby]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

The problem with the whole Cerberus/TIM thing, well one of the problems, is that there is no clear reason why wouldn't try to bring a Renegade Shepard in on his plan.

Though the ending to ME2 all of a sudden did have Renegade Shepard at odds with TIM, a little. It's irritating railroading.

Where was the dialog option to ask, "So, what's next?"

I think it's just how it was envisioned to begin with. If you've read Retribution, it explicitly states that Shepard's relationship with TIM and Cerberus has been "uneasy at best," which leads me to believe that they never actually did plan to give the option to be purely pro-Cerberus and make it work.

Basically, it is more or less canon that Shepard cannot be 100% loyal to Cerberus. At least that's what I concluded after all this time.

If they've never considered a pro-Cerberus path of sorts then they wouldn't have added dialogue options that say "I wish they'd recruited me sooner" or had Shepard becoming a fierce defender of them (ex. renegade dialogue when Mordin asks about them when first comes aboard), nor would they have had those pro-cerberus actions (rawlings data,CB and Overlord) and they wouldn't have added the suble implication of future cooperation in Arrival where Hackett saying "this isn't a Cerberus vessel anymore" is dependant on what Shep did with the CB.

ME3 Cerberus is plot clay in it's purest form. It completely contradicts what ME2 and Retribution established with them being almost bankrupted from ressurecting Shepard and building the Normandy/ED, as well as them being crippled. It also contradicts the build up of the Batarians as the main non-Reaper that Arrival had, which now becomes a $7 excuse to have Shepard start at Earth.

Look no further that Bioware admitting they added Tali as a squadmate due to fan pandering when their original intention wasn't to and it becomes clear why some characters/factions get preferential treatment while others get turned into assclown villains (Udina,TIM,etc).

[Sebby]

Mr.X.Pen wrote...

Yes we can guess the plot for Cerberus will be quite fiddilly in ME3 unless some good explinations are made especially the value of the CB. Since we know saving it hands it to them on a silver plate what will it do for them? Apart from making them better at trying to kill us.

Apprently all the CB decision does is affect some throw away dialogue between TIM and Shep.

[Ultai]

GodWood wrote...

Shepard's talkjutsu really ruins characters.
The way Bioware handles another 'villain' in ME3 is especially annoying. Just once I'd like a major antagonist to tell Shepard to get ****ed and spit in his face instead of saying "Oh how foolish was I to disagree with you" and then blowing their brains out.

I'd pay alittle extra for that.

[Xilizhra]

Ultai wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Shepard's talkjutsu really ruins characters.
The way Bioware handles another 'villain' in ME3 is especially annoying. Just once I'd like a major antagonist to tell Shepard to get ****ed and spit in his face instead of saying "Oh how foolish was I to disagree with you" and then blowing their brains out.

I'd pay alittle extra for that.

Did you pay for Bring Down the Sky? That's exactly what happened.

[Xilizhra]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Did you pay for Bring Down the Sky? That's exactly what happened.

Oh it's quite the opposite actually going by the leaked ME3 script.

I think the example you're looking for is Tela Vasir.

Well, in BDtS itself.

As for Tela, she's the one antagonist whom I wanted to admit was totally right aside from the whole bomb thing.

[Zulu_DFA]

@iOnly

From Redemption it's clear that TIM doesn't really fall for Miranda's "Bloody Icon" speech, and is ready to risk loosing Shepard's body to gain more intel.

Of course, as of ME3, this is fully justified, seeing how Shepard is reduced to "We Fight or We Dye" moron. If I were TIM, I'd too go all cartoon villain on Shepard and have doubts about humanity's being worth saving...

[Labrev]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

You worked for the alien Council and and under Anderson. That's enough reason for TIM to distrust your motives even if you play Cerberus-friendly in ME2.

But those reasons existed even before ME2 began. And despite those reasons, TIM decided to invest in the Lazarus Project, the SR-2, and funding Shepard for the duration of ME2. Whatever way you explain it, TIM is throwing away billions of credits of his own investment for some flimsy/mysterious reasons.

Without Shepard, the O4 mission never happens and the Collectors aren't stopped (at least not before the Alliance would do anything about it). So TIM as well as every other human may as well be dead. Sure, he could've used the money to recruit/train an army, but that's where you step back and see Lazarus for what it is: a gameplay mechanic (a pretty lame one, but nonetheless).

Plus, he had to think that wiping out the Collectors would mean acquiring their tech/weaponry. I think the end-game decision was in his plans all along, even if he did act like it wasn't until EDI uploaded the base's schematics at the last minute.

TIM might as well suspect that you would just infiltrate Cerberus and do no good, especially after you are no longer relevant as Collector bait.

You have outlived your usefulness? But Shepard is no mere Count Dooku. Also, YHOYU requires that there's *something* to gain by killing/betraying your former ally/subordinate, which is not true in TIM's case. He gains nothing by betraying Shepard. There's no one "better" than Shepard as a replacement from TIM's or anybody's POV.

If he sees Shepard as a threat to his plans, that has to be eliminated. Even if Shepard were to want to join with him, there's no guarantee he/she maintains that loyalty to him. All it takes is a disagreement, as with what happens to Miranda at the end of ME2.

Shepard worked with aliens to stop Saren. TIM thinks he/she is an idealist (as he says at the end of the "Shepard dies" ending of ME2). Pretty much the polar-opposite of what I've read about Kai Leng, who seems to have his trust.

[Labrev]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

"I don't feel I have to wipe everybody out, Tom. Just my enemies."

To wipe out everyone whose loyalty is not guaranteed, TIM will need to wipe out virtually everyone. That is simply infeasible.

Loyalty is not the issue, just trust. Really, even if RP'd to be TIM's best little minion, TIM has lots of reasons not to trust Shepard. What he plans to do is pretty much the opposite of what Shepard has been fighting for all along. It was the only basis of their alliance in ME2.

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 28 novembre 2011 - 01:08 .

[Xilizhra]

And such is the glory of an INCOMPLETE SCRIPT.

[HiroVoid]

GodWood wrote...

Seboist wrote...
Zaeed ends up being hired by Cerberus again and defends some Cerberus agent or whatever against Shepard. Naturally after Space Jesus Shepard defeats him in battle s/he's presented with the choice of guiding his soul onto the proper path(ala charm in his LM in ME2) or executing him.

Shepard's talkjutsu really ruins characters.
The way Bioware handles another 'villain' in ME3 is especially annoying. Just once I'd like a major antagonist to tell Shepard to get ****ed and spit in his face instead of saying "Oh how foolish was I to disagree with you" and then blowing their brains out.

This might be similar to what you were looking for probably, and I still think this was the most entertaining convo in ME2.

[Xilizhra]

HiroVoid wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Seboist wrote...
Zaeed ends up being hired by Cerberus again and defends some Cerberus agent or whatever against Shepard. Naturally after Space Jesus Shepard defeats him in battle s/he's presented with the choice of guiding his soul onto the proper path(ala charm in his LM in ME2) or executing him.

Shepard's talkjutsu really ruins characters.
The way Bioware handles another 'villain' in ME3 is especially annoying. Just once I'd like a major antagonist to tell Shepard to get ****ed and spit in his face instead of saying "Oh how foolish was I to disagree with you" and then blowing their brains out.

This might be similar to what you were looking for probably, and I still think this was the most entertaining convo in ME2.

I believe that most of the people in this thread can rest assured that the option to be a complete and utter scumbag will remain open.

[Ravensword]

It is what it is.

[GodWood]

Xilizhra wrote...
I believe that most of the people in this thread can rest assured that the option to be a complete and utter scumbag will remain open.

Saying a smartarse remark to a racist, apologizing only to be both verbally (and physically) harrassed again then being the bigger man and walking away is being scumbag?

[Xilizhra]

GodWood wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I believe that most of the people in this thread can rest assured that the option to be a complete and utter scumbag will remain open.

Saying a smartarse remark to a racist, apologizing only to be both verbally (and physically) harrassed again then being the bigger man and walking away is being scumbag?

Given the context? Yes.