6970 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

The way the choice was presented at the time was that 'Focus on Sovereing' was the most efficient way to destroy Sovereign while you risked ships going after to save the Ascension.

Yes. You refused to think further.

You just simply didn't bring it up before and said I should have known the best outcome was to save the ascension since I should have known that Sovereign needed Saren to activate the relay to get the reapers there when one of the squadmates points out Sovereign opening up the relay could still be a worry.

Another factor.

You're also pointing out how I should have known the geth ships would have been a threat even though it wasn't put into the context of the situation.

Yes.

Again, I'm fine with you personally using that defense though. My defense is there was no way to know what was the best route. I decided to go with the context of the scene that said that the most efficient way to deal with the situation was to focus on sovereign. Heck, it even gave me 8 paragon points and 9 renegade points since it seemed to understand that context of the situation.

Irrelevant. You failed. I care less about that than the fact that you refuse to admit it and act defensive about it... sort of. Both are bad, but the latter is somewhat viscerally worse despite having much lighter effects.

[BlueMagitek]

Actually if we're going to use Xil's logic, we know that the Geth ships aren't a problem at all, so there's really no need to worry about that.

[DarkSeraphym]

Xilizhra wrote...

There was never a 100% way to know. Other risks could occur while leaving the geth fleet completely intact after destroying the only dreadnaught available. Your refusal to admit error remains disgusting.

The Destiny Ascension was on the verge of being completely and utterly destroyed without the intervention of another fleet. Hell, we could see in that scene that its system were already undergoing catastrophic failure. Seeing as how we are going into a more realistic discussion of the issue, we are talking about a warship that has more or less been turned into a pin cushion. I'm not confident that such a warship, which was carrying the Council mind you, would have stuck around once the Alliance saved them. Would you normally expect a sinking ship, or even a gravely wounded soldier, to immediately jump back into the battle?

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 28 novembre 2011 - 05:30 .

[Xilizhra]

To be fair

No.

I was more concerned with the immediate threat of a full-scale Reaper invasion than I was with the Geth Fleet.

The geth fleet could be a prime factor in said invasion.

Besides, the Destiny Ascension was on the verge of being completely and utterly destroyed without the intervention of another fleet. Hell, we could see in that scene that its system were already undergoing catastrophic failure. Seeing as how we are going into a more realistic discussion of the issue, we are talking about a warship that has more or less been turned into a pin cushion. I'm not confident that such a warship, which was carrying the Council mind you, would have stuck around once the Alliance saved them. Would you normally expect a sinking ship, or even a gravely wounded soldier, to immediately jump back into the battle?

I would expect it to stay well back, but given the range and power of its gun, it may well fire back. Since we only ever see the fight at knife fight range, which dreadnaughts don't enter, the final cutscene gives no certain answers as to whether the DA participated.

[HiroVoid]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Actually if we're going to use Xil's logic, we know that the Geth ships aren't a problem at all, so there's really no need to worry about that.

Yep.   I hate metagaming though, so I'm fine with people who think of the geth fleet as a threat since it's their reaosning to do so.

Xil, I respect your reasoning for doing what you did, but for all accounts, I disagree with what was the bigger risk.  You can think of me as disgusting or a scumbag, but I had a lot of fun with this argument.  It got my adrenaline up, and made me excited to actually argue something rather than dreading to do so.  So for that I'll say thanks.  At this point, I feel like we're just going to restate our reasons and go in circles, so I'll end this argument here.  You had your points, and I had mine though you may disagree with them.  Also, I need to hit the sack soon....so if anyone else wants to still debate about it, feel free too.

[BlueMagitek]

Don't forget, the Salarian Councilor (rest his soul) tells you that you'd need to make sacrifices. He always was my favorite, too... Ah well, back to that big wheel in the sky for my lizard buddy.

To be honest, I would have preferred that the ending be dependent on how much you've supported the Alliance. Deal with the Geth incursions? You have enough to save the DA and take on Sovereign. Didn't do any Alliance sidequests? Only have the manpower to take on Sovereign.

Of course, that would be a boon to completionists and kind of harmful to those who don't enjoy those sorts of sidequests, but still, it'd be nice. =D

Sleep well, Hiro. : )

[HiroVoid]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Don't forget, the Salarian Councilor (rest his soul) tells you that you'd need to make sacrifices. He always was my favorite, too... Ah well, back to that big wheel in the sky for my lizard buddy.

To be honest, I would have preferred that the ending be dependent on how much you've supported the Alliance. Deal with the Geth incursions? You have enough to save the DA and take on Sovereign. Didn't do any Alliance sidequests? Only have the manpower to take on Sovereign.

Of course, that would be a boon to completionists and kind of harmful to those who don't enjoy those sorts of sidequests, but still, it'd be nice. =D

Sleep well, Hiro. : )

I also liked the Salrian counilor and never really remember having anything against the Asari Councilor.

I doubt they'd do that since they wanted to let people experience the full story without sidequests, and you can't do quick runs through the main quest like that.  Of course, I suppose that also makes it riskier when dealing with Wrex.

Also, thank you. =)

[DarkSeraphym]

Xilizhra wrote...

No.

Look, I'm attempting to have an intelligent conversation with you. You aren't furthering anything by posting one-line retorts that don't even amount to a real counterargument. Could we please keep these to a minimum?

Xilizhra wrote...

The geth fleet could be a prime factor in said invasion.

I was under the impression that the Geth were merely a prime factor in the Vanguard portion of the invasion. Once Sovereign had accomplished this goal, it didn't sound to me like they were anything more than an afterthought. Really not enough to say as Sovereign didn't come up and tell us everything "he" had in store, but I'd find myself a little surprised to see what looked like dozens of Geth ships being a prime factor in an invasion of hundreds, possibly thousands of Reaper ships.

Xilizhra wrote...

I would expect it to stay well back, but given the range and power of its gun, it may well fire back. Since we only ever see the fight at knife fight range, which dreadnaughts don't enter, the final cutscene gives no certain answers as to whether the DA participated

Unless it had unloaded its precious cargo, I wouldn't even forsee it staying back whatsoever. We are talking about a warship that is not only sinking, but its got three of the most important government officials on board. If I had been in command of the ship, unless I had a way of getting those people off safely, I would be heading to the nearest safe star system as my protocol would probably dictate me to do that. Besides, we could see that the systems within the ship were failing. If that is the case, I would imagine that it would be important for the ship to get as far away as it possibly can just so we could save the ship. That kind of damage would create all sorts of hazards that could still mean the destruction of the ship even after the Alliance had taken the steps to protect it.

Truth be told, if we are going to go into the "what-if's" and discuss the possibility that the Destiny Ascension could sit on the side-lines and fire its main weapon, I think it is just as relevant to question whether or not the Destiny Ascension's primary weapon systems were even operational anymore. I just watched the ending scene over again and the Asari that seems to be in charge of the ship notes that the main drives are all offline, the systems have suffered heavy damage, and the kinetic barriers have gone offline. There is no telling whether or not the ship had functioning weapon systems by that point, let alone the ability to get them up and running again while the battle was going on.

Regardless, what we do know for certain is that it had failing systems, a failed main drive, and failing kinetic barriers. By that point, I would think that the ship was less of an asset and more of a liability. If I had just risked Alliance lives to protect it, I have effectively turned it into a strategic target and I think it is a very real expectation that the Destiny Ascension would have fled.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 28 novembre 2011 - 06:48 .

[BlueMagitek]

The Asari Councilor was okay. She kept trying to play peacemaker, but we all know that Shepard and Turian Councilor are vitriolic best buds. =D

I know, I know. But why would you do a quick run through a Bioware game, good lord, have these people heard of Baldur's Gate? Reward the player for doing the story; they're still capable of winning the game, they just can't save the Council (and, if a dev comment I've heard of suggested, that was to be the reward for importing a save). Even then, I would have had it based off of the missions based on removing Alliance problems, not the Mineral/Writing/Medallion missions. ~_~

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

Besides, the Destiny Ascension was on the verge of being completely and utterly destroyed without the intervention of another fleet. Hell, we could see in that scene that its system were already undergoing catastrophic failure. Seeing as how we are going into a more realistic discussion of the issue, we are talking about a warship that has more or less been turned into a pin cushion. I'm not confident that such a warship, which was carrying the Council mind you, would have stuck around once the Alliance saved them. Would you normally expect a sinking ship, or even a gravely wounded soldier, to immediately jump back into the battle?

I would expect it to stay well back, but given the range and power of its gun, it may well fire back. Since we only ever see the fight at knife fight range, which dreadnaughts don't enter, the final cutscene gives no certain answers as to whether the DA participated.

I'd agree with this assessment if not for the presence of the Council and other civillian evacuees.  Let's face it the Council are cowards through and through, they regularly refuse to take action, even in the interest of self preservation, out of fear it could upset a disorganized gang of thugs that has shown 1, exactly 1, instance of large scale cooperation and they were beaten back by the Alliance alone.  Considering how much the Turian military is talked up it looks very much like a bear that's afraid of a mouse.  I digress however.

The Council is not going to risk their own skin by having the DA continue to participate in the battle, they're heavily damaged and their shields are down (no indication of whether or not they can get them back up).  So they are going to move well outside the range of any dreadnoughts the Geth may have brought aside from Sovereign, and that's probably the best choice.  In it's current state the DA is going to demand more ships for it's screen as it is more imparative than ever that enemy vessels not get close enough to pose a threat.  Having the DA take itself out of the fight, at least temporarily, means you can send fewer ships as it's screen since the Geth are unlikely to turn their backs on ships that are attacking them to achieve the primarily symbolic destruction of a vessel that isn't.

Furthermore had we been given the option I would have told the Council to get the hell out.  I just chose to sacrifice Alliance lives and vessels in order to save them it seems phenomenally stupid for them to jump back into a fight they were already losing and which we cannot afford to send more back-up.

Assuming the DA is going to stick around, even at a distance, involves completely ignoring everything we've seen about the Council.  They are not noble heros or warrior kings, I can guarantee you the only reason the DA did not jump through the Mass Relay as soon as the Council was on board (to hell with the civillians) was that they couldn't.  There was an enemy fleet between them and the Relay and even if they could get to it the Relay was inactive.  99% chance that with the Relay active and the Geth occupied the Council isn't even going to stay in-system.

[Kaiser Shepard]

DarkSeraphym wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No.

Look, I'm attempting to have an intelligent conversation with you. You aren't furthering anything by posting one-line retorts that don't even amount to a real counterargument. Could we please keep these to a minimum?

And that's your first mistake: seeing Xil as something more than a source of endless satire.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

This might be similar to what you were looking for probably, and I still think this was the most entertaining convo in ME2.

I believe that most of the people in this thread can rest assured that the option to be a complete and utter scumbag will remain open.

Because making a smart-ass remark in reaction to another smart-ass remark is being a true scumbag.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Xilizhra wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Did you pay for Bring Down the Sky? That's exactly what happened.

Oh it's quite the opposite actually going by the leaked ME3 script.

I think the example you're looking for is Tela Vasir.

Well, in BDtS itself.

As for Tela, she's the one antagonist whom I wanted to admit was totally right aside from the whole bomb thing.

Yeah, all that other murder, attempted murder, hostage taking, etc.. all totally justified [/sarcasm]

[Killjoy Cutter]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra's always been a tad crazy. Rambles on and on but can't answer a yes or no question.

I'm pretty sure the two Asari were Geth Infiltrators anyway, so they really shouldn't have been helped anyway.

No flashlight heads...

[Killjoy Cutter]

Xilizhra wrote...

Those people can admit whatever they want. I didn't choose to kill them because I thought they were a**holes or that they deserved it. I made a choice to do what I thought would make sure that the galaxy would see tomorrow, and that the species 50,000 years from now wouldn't see their skies darkened.

But you failed, and you refuse to admit it? And why's that? Because you "did the best you could?" Well, that's not your job; you're supposed to do the best thing possible! Your job isn't to be a fallible human; we have billions of them. You're a Spectre with unsurpassed access to a means to save not only the galaxy, but many, many specific people within it! You failed and you're telling me that it's no failure? That's why you're the scumbag! You threw away a chance to bring about the best possible outcome, which you could have discerned from the situation as it stands, and you see it as something you shouldn't be blamed for? That's the only reasonable reaction!

This is why you're Failures! Your job is to be perfect! And you muddle it with your human bull****! You dishonor the Alliance! You dishonor the galaxy! You dishonor yourselves! And most of all, you dishonor the human potential that you so claim to love by squandering it on your pitiful ****ing degeneracy!

Um... what? 

One of the "renegade" decisions that I really can't argue with is the call to reluctantly concentrate the attack on Sovereign.  Given the situation, there's argument to be made for that, and an argument to be made for saving the DA.    Of course, there's also the jerkarse-renegade "they can go screw themselves" response that I never really understood...

One of the failings of ME2 is that there's never any distinction made between "Taking out Sovereign is more important" and "screw the council".

[HiroVoid]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Those people can admit whatever they want. I didn't choose to kill them because I thought they were a**holes or that they deserved it. I made a choice to do what I thought would make sure that the galaxy would see tomorrow, and that the species 50,000 years from now wouldn't see their skies darkened.

But you failed, and you refuse to admit it? And why's that? Because you "did the best you could?" Well, that's not your job; you're supposed to do the best thing possible! Your job isn't to be a fallible human; we have billions of them. You're a Spectre with unsurpassed access to a means to save not only the galaxy, but many, many specific people within it! You failed and you're telling me that it's no failure? That's why you're the scumbag! You threw away a chance to bring about the best possible outcome, which you could have discerned from the situation as it stands, and you see it as something you shouldn't be blamed for? That's the only reasonable reaction!

This is why you're Failures! Your job is to be perfect! And you muddle it with your human bull****! You dishonor the Alliance! You dishonor the galaxy! You dishonor yourselves! And most of all, you dishonor the human potential that you so claim to love by squandering it on your pitiful ****ing degeneracy!

Um... what? 

One of the "renegade" decisions that I really can't argue with is the call to reluctantly concentrate the attack on Sovereign.  Given the situation, there's argument to be made for that, and an argument to be made for saving the DA.    Of course, there's also the jerkarse-renegade "they can go screw themselves" response that I never really understood...

One of the failings of ME2 is that there's never any distinction made between "Taking out Sovereign is more important" and "screw the council".

Well, it's technically not a renegade decision since it gives you 8 paragon points and 9 renegade points.  Though yeah, I still feel it fits in line with renegade even though it's for differing reasons.  I think this is when they weren't completely sure what they wanted renegade to be exactly.  Of course, this kind of goes in hand with while some renegade dialgoue can just be confrontive, others is just being a d-bag.  The final decisions is pretty much just  a case that not all situations cover a specific morality similar to situations like Mordin's LM where you have 4 options instead of two.  As for human dominance Shepard, in ME1, you could manipulate events to purposely put humanity at the top which is the leaving the council to die which comes off almost as "more evil" shepard per se.  Since the council and humanity don't really take a big part in ME2, this whole plot is pretty much neglected along with the embassy and 'lesser' species like the Volus and elcor.

I honestly wouldn't call it a failing of ME2.  The species are going to have their own views of why you did what you did and blame you for killing the citadel if that's how they view it.  That's why you can have people like the Salarian shopkeeper who still treats you as a hero since he still sees you as saving the citadel(Seriously, I love the heck out of that Saliran shopkeeeper), and you have those like the Turian shopkeeper who sees you as the guy who killed he council and doesn't care to listen to your motives.  I loved the renegade response to Al-jilani which basically tells her 'Don't insult those that died.  I made that choice, and I didn't make it lightly'.  Humorously, the paragon one I think is saying 'The council dying opens up new opportunities' which strikes me more as renegade almost....I guess they decided the latter was simply more polite while the former was more intimidating.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 28 novembre 2011 - 04:48 .

[Xilizhra]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Did you pay for Bring Down the Sky? That's exactly what happened.

Oh it's quite the opposite actually going by the leaked ME3 script.

I think the example you're looking for is Tela Vasir.

Well, in BDtS itself.

As for Tela, she's the one antagonist whom I wanted to admit was totally right aside from the whole bomb thing.

Yeah, all that other murder, attempted murder, hostage taking, etc.. all totally justified [/sarcasm]

Right about Cerberus.

[BlueMagitek]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra's always been a tad crazy. Rambles on and on but can't answer a yes or no question.

I'm pretty sure the two Asari were Geth Infiltrators anyway, so they really shouldn't have been helped anyway.

No flashlight heads...

We know Asari are used by the Rachni as infiltrators and a prominent Matriarch was allied with the Geth; we can't take any chances.

[Sebby]

Amen to this...



Link

[BlueMagitek]

I disagree; TIM is best leading in the shadows; the light isn't the place for Cerberus.