6970 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

Archer and Irenicus should totally start a band. >.>

Actually that'd be a neat cameo to have Irenicus as a Cerberus scientist. =D

[Sebby]

Gavin Archer is one of the best characters in ME. He's a good man at heart who's willing to subject his brother to an unethical procedure despite how greatly it pains him to save countless lives.

[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
If you can recruit idealists for the idealist aspects of Cerberus, and cynics for the cynical aspects, a non-unitary group like Cerberus is one of the best candidates for embracing all sides of human nature.

Naturally. But hey, Bioware doesn't want all sides of human nature to be represented. Because well, Cerberus has to be eeeevil. Can't have decent people in there. /sarcasm.

The decent people would be potential liabilities, and now that Cerberus is developing an actual army, it evidently doesn't need to scrape up idealists anymore. Kill them all before they can reveal delicate information.

Gavin Archer is one of the best characters in ME. He's a good man at heart who's willing to subject his brother to an unethical procedure despite how greatly it pains him to save countless lives.

And completely fail in no fewer than three ways.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 02 décembre 2011 - 01:02 .

[Ravensword]

laecraft wrote...

^But if he did any of those things, how would the writers deliver the visual shock and show that Cerberus is eeeeevil? Dr. Archer is the pawn of the writers' intent.

Trust me, if any other scientist were in his place, he'd be forced to do the same if he wanted to complete the project, no matter how unnecessary it is and how little sense it makes. You can't really argue with gods, and the gods wanted David hooked to those dubious devices, suffering, and screaming in that shocking manner. Dr. Archer did the best he could, given the circumstances.

No. TIM was going to shut down the project b/c a lack of results. So what? I just shows how cruel, desperate and just how little Dr. Archers cared about his brother when he decided to hook him up. Dr. Archer should've acquiesced instead.

[Sebby]

Dr. Archer is out preventing a million mothers mourning the lives of a million sons while his detractors slander his good name!

[BlueMagitek]

So those mothers are mourning their lost sons and not their daughters (who are also eligible to join the military)? That's rather sexist. >_>

Come on, someone had to get the reference I made.

[feliciano2040]

No. TIM was going to shut down the project b/c a lack of results. So what? I just shows how cruel, desperate and just how little Dr. Archers cared about his brother when he decided to hook him up. Dr. Archer should've acquiesced instead.

Pretty much.

[BlueMagitek]

While I do think the correct option is "Focus on Sovereign", I think you're being rather cruel to the paragon reasoning behind it. It can range from "I want to save them" to "It'll keep the galaxy stable and put the Asari in our debt".

[BlueMagitek]

I agree, from an ingame standpoint, the correct response is to focus on Sovereign; when faced with annihilation, you don't divide your forces to protect something that isn't an asset. If the DA was actually fighting, it may have been a different story.

However, we both know people aren't going to use the ingame standpoint; because you know that regardless of what you did, you magically have enough forces to do both! Therefore, anyone who doesn't save the Council and the Galaxy is a super monster who probably eats the souls of children's cookies at every opportunity~!

[Xilizhra]

I agree, from an ingame standpoint, the correct response is to focus on Sovereign

Evidently not.

Dr. Archer was only following the Paragon Shepard's reasoning when he saved the DA - nobody questions the victor. Doesn't matter how cruel, desperate, and just plain stupid the gamble is when it leads to victory and getting results.

If by "nobody" you mean "al-Jilani and presumably her followers."

[BlueMagitek]

No, no, it certainly is. The only thing that matters is the destruction of Sovereign and the preservation of all organic life. If the entire Fifth Fleet had to die for that to happen, so be it, but I'm not going to toss the lives of hundreds of billions (if not trillions) of organic life to the dice in order to save a single warship that isn't taking part in the battle.

[Xilizhra]

Organic life won't be unduly threatened by that action, so far as I can calculate. And in the end, it wasn't.

[HiroVoid]

Nah. It's resources. You can't make paths that diverge too much because it would take too many resources.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

Organic life won't be unduly threatened by that action, so far as I can calculate. And in the end, it wasn't.

Oh but it is!  Shepard knows that, according to Vigil, Reapers have done this before and squashed the Prothean Empire (which was technologically superior and it seems more efficient than current day) as well as species before that.  Shepard knows that Sovereign's plan is to open the Relay to bring more Reapers to the Galaxy, which would catch everyone unaware (the Citadel is already in shambles, the Council has fled).  Shepard knows that a single Reaper (and a fleet of Geth) just blasted its way through Citadel forces.  Shepard knows that the Fifth Fleet is here.

Now, with that in mind, Shepard is presented with a choice; use the Fifth Fleet to attempt to save the DA, which *may* save the DA but will almost certainly result in losses for the Fifth Fleet or Focus Sovereign.  The DA itself is in a bad way, unlikely to rejoin the battle.  This will result in less firepower to be used against Sovereign.  Or, Shepard can send the entire, fresh Fifth Fleet to fight Sovereign.  It isn't certain that they'd win against him, but they'd have a better chance of dealing with Sovereign fresh than having lost some of their power for the DA and not gaining any.  

As it turns out, both choices will destroy Sovereign, but Shepard doesn't know that.  By attempting to save the DA, Shep is taking a gamble on the lives of everyone to save the lives of a (relatively) few (and, to make the distinction, the majority of these people would be military; they serve on a warship, they knew the risk when they joined vs. the countless civilians who will face death at the hands of the Reapers).  By focusing on Sovereign, yes, there's a chance that the FF won't be able to take it down, but you've got a better chance of taking down Sovereign at full strength.

[Dean_the_Young]

laecraft wrote...

^But if he did any of those things, how would the writers deliver the visual shock and show that Cerberus is eeeeevil? Dr. Archer is the pawn of the writers' intent.

Trust me, if any other scientist were in his place, he'd be forced to do the same if he wanted to complete the project, no matter how unnecessary it is and how little sense it makes. You can't really argue with gods, and the gods wanted David hooked to those dubious devices, suffering, and screaming in that shocking manner. Dr. Archer did the best he could, given the circumstances.

The sad thing is, horror can come in so many better flavors than 'dumb atrocity.'

Take another scenario, for example. What if David were a willing subject?

Granted, the question of 'willingness' with people with mental disorders is always up for question, but just accept that David volunteered.

Why? Brotherly love. Concern. Archer's been admitting that he's getting frantic, and is worried about the Illusive Man. David realizes he might be the key to making his brother happy/safe. He presses for it, despite Archer's reservations.

And then, when the experiment goes forward, his mind and emotions go haywire. Say that, in the Geth ship, he overhears one of those Cerberus personnel recordings... about musings that the project leader will be 'removed' by the Illusive Man if results aren't found soon. Implication of killing.

David loves his brother. David wants his brother safe and protected. And so David wakes up all the Geth and begins to kill every single person who might endanger his brother... which, in David's overwhelmed and Geth-influenced state, is everyone.

Those Geth we fight at the beginning before meeting Archer? We realize they were guarding him. And while Shepard's away, more Geth take Doctor Archer into the bunker for 'safety.' Rather than David on his... whatever, when Shepard arrives we could see David's Geth trying to force Archer into the same sort of device, to bring the two together.

Instead of all those 'Make it stop!' shouts? 'Don't touch him!' 'He's mine!' 'Brother!'

Rather than the madness of a suffering person, the madness of over-protectiveness gone awry.


That would give shock value without going on the absurd.

[Dean_the_Young]

Edit: Never mind.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 02 décembre 2011 - 02:36 .

[Sebby]

HiroVoid wrote...

Nah. It's resources. You can't make paths that diverge too much because it would take too many resources.

The Witcher series manages it just fine. Bioware doesn't even attempt at trying to create any branching narrative or real difference between the two paths.

It wouldn't be that hard to do really. Let's take a Quarian vs Geth scenario for instance,depending on Shepard's choice the starting location and the enemies to fight would change but otherwise the map would largely be the same. Bioware doesn't even do THAT.

Modifié par Seboist, 02 décembre 2011 - 07:29 .