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[Sebby]

Rojahar wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Shepard never shows much in the way of tactical,strategic or political knowledge, which makes all the praise of him being this "great leader" puzzling.

Bioware's writing philosophy is "Why show, when you can tell?"

They don't do either with a number of Renegade "outcomes". :happy:

[Dean_the_Young]

feliciano2040 wrote...

Friend, we never see anyone in Mass Effect dwelve into military tactics, it's something that's implied / happens off-screen.


It's a writer's habit friend, this is a game made by people who are fans of Firefly and Battlestar Galactica, not by former generals you know  ?

Which doesn't change the charge: that Shepard's never been portrayed as an especially bright military mind.

Really, it wouldn't be hard for Bioware to get former soldiers to help weigh in on the military depiction of, well, a military character.

But you know that's stuff the writers mishandle, and which is easely rationalizable, that doesn't mean it says something bad about the character.

It does say that the character hasn't shown strength. 'The writers are bad' isn't enough: if author intent was everything, we'd just get summaries.

Hmmmmmmmm, you'll have to elaborate on this one, not sure what you're getting at here  !

Shepard is a political idiot because the player is a political idiot, and needs to ask basic questions to understand basic things about the lore and setting.

Because ?

'We fight or we die, that's the plan!' sums it up nicely.

[Xilizhra]

First, there is an issue of Shepard being passive, instead of being proactive. A leader leads, not follows. He strikes first, not just responds. But Shepard, instead of deciding what to do himself, follows the orders of his betters. The Council, Anderson, Hackett, TIM. The questgivers. They know what to do - Shepard merely follows the instructions.

A necessary weakness of the narrative structure when it occurs. And it doesn't always; the N7 assignments are always Shepard's idea to do.

That's not a gameplaying drawback, that's storytelling failure. At the end of ME2, Shepard proudly tells TIM that he's now going to be doing things HIS way, nobody tells him what to do, and he's going to stop the Reapers without TIM. Nice, fierce declaration! Humanity needs a leader, ok. And what does he do then? He goes to the Earth and sits around, waiting for the Reapers to arrive!

Shepard very likely canonically made that statement before she had any idea she'd be confined to Earth after Arrival.

ME3 starts several months later, on Earth, and Shepard hasn't been doing anything useful in that time. If you did Arrival after SM, Shepard does yet another quest because someone else tells him to. If you were a galactic hero, a leader, and you knew that the Armageddon was coming, would you sit and wait for it to happen?

Does... Shepard have an option before ME3? With no available ship, no crew, no anything?

It would look even more ridiculous if ME3 plot involves quests not related to the Reapers' presence in the galaxy, like exploring some ancient, forgotten ruins to find the ways to defeat the Reapers. Something that easily could've been done before the Reapers' arrival. Hopefully that's not going to happen.

I doubt it will.

There's nothing to explain why Shepard is uniquely suited to the task of defeating the Reapers and uniting the galaxy. At the beginning of ME2, Miranda declares that Shepard's a hero and an icon, and that the Council would follow him. Well, you've seen exactly how much sway Shepard has with the Council, so what's the point? And how exactly does Shepard use his heroic status in ME2, to aid his fight? Well, you can get a discount in the stores on the Citadel!

Also alter the state of the Migrant Fleet, attract Legion to find a way to strike a final blow against the heretic geth, serve as a means of ensuring that the Reapers want Shepard's head personally so as to possibly distract them, and much of the rest of Shepard's political capital was spent by her death. She has to start rather fresh in ME2.

There is also that Prothean Cypher thing, but Shepard's Prothean nature isn't being used anywhere after ME1. It's not even unique to him - there is still Shiala. Possibly Liara as well. And any other asari Shepard decides to link minds with.

We can probably wait for ME3 for it to be brought up again (especially if Shiala is dead, in which case Shepard is unique).

It doesn't even make Shepard unique in ME1 itself - it could've been anyone, it should've been VS to touch the beacon, and then their mind could've been used by the asari to extract the info from it, since Shepard isn't using it on his own, he's just a vessel for the others to read and make sense of it. The Council cared so much for that beacon, they should've requested that reading, for their database. Nothing but the location of Ilos is essential, the Cypher is unnecessary otherwise, even Vigil speaks English.

True, it could have been anyone; ME doesn't really use Chosen One tropes. Shepard is shaped by external circumstance like anyone else.

Finally there is that little issue of our choices carrying over into the next game. We can't let the player choice affect the main storyline, now can we? Apparently the only way to manage it is to invalidate the choice. And what kind of leader is that, if what he does doesn't matter?

Er, one who can't control every external circumstance in the galaxy?

As a result, I am completely unimpressed with Shepard's heroic and leadership skills.

I really, really hope you didn't put all that faith into TI... oh, wait.

[Dean_the_Young]

laecraft wrote...

feliciano2040 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Shepard never shows much in the way of tactical,strategic or political knowledge, which makes all the praise of him being this "great leader" puzzling.

I can understand you guys being mad at how TIM is being handled in ME 3.

But seriously complaining about Shepard out of such spite ? C'mon guys.

You assume that just because it's a TIM thread, all discussion here is related to TIM. Not at all. Discussion wanders quite a bit.

And I agree that Shepard is a poor leader, simply because his leadership skills are only spoken of, but never shown. And that's the writing failure.

First, there is an issue of Shepard being passive, instead of being proactive. A leader leads, not follows. He strikes first, not just responds. But Shepard, instead of deciding what to do himself, follows the orders of his betters. The Council, Anderson, Hackett, TIM. The questgivers. They know what to do - Shepard merely follows the instructions.

That's not a gameplaying drawback, that's storytelling failure. At the end of ME2, Shepard proudly tells TIM that he's now going to be doing things HIS way, nobody tells him what to do, and he's going to stop the Reapers without TIM. Nice, fierce declaration! Humanity needs a leader, ok. And what does he do then? He goes to the Earth and sits around, waiting for the Reapers to arrive!

Humanity doesn't need a "leader" like that. We're going to die under your leadership, Shepard!

ME3 starts several months later, on Earth, and Shepard hasn't been doing anything useful in that time. If you did Arrival after SM, Shepard does yet another quest because someone else tells him to. If you were a galactic hero, a leader, and you knew that the Armageddon was coming, would you sit and wait for it to happen?

It would look even more ridiculous if ME3 plot involves quests not related to the Reapers' presence in the galaxy, like exploring some ancient, forgotten ruins to find the ways to defeat the Reapers. Something that easily could've been done before the Reapers' arrival. Hopefully that's not going to happen.

Shepard's not a leader, not on galactic scale, not even on organization scale. Worse yet, Shepard is unnecessary.

There's nothing to explain why Shepard is uniquely suited to the task of defeating the Reapers and uniting the galaxy. At the beginning of ME2, Miranda declares that Shepard's a hero and an icon, and that the Council would follow him. Well, you've seen exactly how much sway Shepard has with the Council, so what's the point? And how exactly does Shepard use his heroic status in ME2, to aid his fight? Well, you can get a discount in the stores on the Citadel!

There is also that Prothean Cypher thing, but Shepard's Prothean nature isn't being used anywhere after ME1. It's not even unique to him - there is still Shiala. Possibly Liara as well. And any other asari Shepard decides to link minds with.

It doesn't even make Shepard unique in ME1 itself - it could've been anyone, it should've been VS to touch the beacon, and then their mind could've been used by the asari to extract the info from it, since Shepard isn't using it on his own, he's just a vessel for the others to read and make sense of it. The Council cared so much for that beacon, they should've requested that reading, for their database. Nothing but the location of Ilos is essential, the Cypher is unnecessary otherwise, even Vigil speaks English.

Finally there is that little issue of our choices carrying over into the next game. We can't let the player choice affect the main storyline, now can we? Apparently the only way to manage it is to invalidate the choice. And what kind of leader is that, if what he does doesn't matter?

Based on what we've seen so far, I bet we're going to learn that if Shepard didn't do a certain quest, then someone else did it, or they managed without his help, or it was completely unnecessary in the grand scheme of things, so he wasted his time apparently, while he could've been doing something useful to stop the Reapers. As a result, Shepard doesn't make much difference with his optional quests, and his supposed "unique heroic leader" status suffers from it.

As a result, I am completely unimpressed with Shepard's heroic and leadership skills.

That's a damn good analysis.


And I especially want to see TIM berate Shepard's 'independent leadership.'

[Xilizhra]

And I especially want to see TIM berate Shepard's 'independent leadership.'

He does if you destroy the base.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

And I especially want to see TIM berate Shepard's 'independent leadership.'

He does if you destroy the base.

I'm referring to the part about Shepard strikes his own way... by submitting to arrest for several monthes.

[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And I especially want to see TIM berate Shepard's 'independent leadership.'

He does if you destroy the base.

I'm referring to the part about Shepard strikes his own way... by submitting to arrest for several monthes.

Well, Shepard could also start a war between the Alliance and the Hegemony and get both even more curbstomped by the Reapers. I suppose that might work.

[feliciano2040]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Which doesn't change the charge: that Shepard's never been portrayed as an especially bright military mind.

Doesn't mean he isn't one, it just means the player is not forced to having to know about military tactics.

You have to understand that Mass Effect, as a videogame, even more so as an RPG, needs to allow the player a great deal of inmersion to allow the story to be effective. As cool as it would be for you to see military strategizing in Mass Effect, it's not gonna happen because:

A) We'd have to see it in cutscenes or in non-controlled dialogue, and that would break inmersion.

We'd have to know and understand the complexity of military tactics, and some people just aren't interested, that's their right as well.

C) It serves no purpose to the main story, if you guys like to see that so much, then read a Tom Clancy novel, I'd rather deal with the other MUCH more interesting thematic components of the game, the ones that are not filler.  

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Really, it wouldn't be hard for Bioware to get former soldiers to help weigh in on the military depiction of, well, a military character.

It's not free to hire military advisors you know  ? Even EA is not going to give them a blank check to curtail to every little fans' nitpicking, and seeing Shepard issuing military commands IS nitpicking, apart from missing the point of how it interferes with the role-playing aspect.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It does say that the character hasn't shown strength. 'The writers are bad' isn't enough: if author intent was everything, we'd just get summaries.

Sense. There is none present  !

A character is nothing more than the product of the skill and talent of a writer, if you think a character is not good enough it has nothing to do with the character, because he doesn't exist ! He's not a living person with responsibility for his actions.

If you have, if you so need to hold anyone accountable, then do so with the writer, precisely the one at fault (according to you).

Dean_the_Young wrote...

'We fight or we die, that's the plan!' sums it up nicely.

You're gonna make bleed of laughter  !

It's just a selling quote dude, same as "They say it's a suicide mission, PROVE THEM WRONG".

Don't take everything so literally, it's just made to get people riled up, it's not that the writer nor Shepard actually believe that's the goddamn plan !

Modifié par feliciano2040, 10 décembre 2011 - 04:33 .

[BlueMagitek]

Hey now, all I wanted was some options for Shepard to amass some power like Saren did. Yes, Shepard does have some powerful friends, but think of the possibilities. Getting a cut of Helena Blake's business (pro neutral option!) or getting use of her agents on missions (as in, options that can make missions easier or grant upgrades not otherwise there), smuggling contacts on Noveria (jellyfish), having Rana work on upgrades while she's off working for whatever scientist we're going to be up against the next time we see her, etc.

It'd be fun and give more replayability.

[Xilizhra]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Hey now, all I wanted was some options for Shepard to amass some power like Saren did. Yes, Shepard does have some powerful friends, but think of the possibilities. Getting a cut of Helena Blake's business (pro neutral option!) or getting use of her agents on missions (as in, options that can make missions easier or grant upgrades not otherwise there), smuggling contacts on Noveria (jellyfish), having Rana work on upgrades while she's off working for whatever scientist we're going to be up against the next time we see her, etc.

It'd be fun and give more replayability.

I agree with this. I feel that Shepard should have been more or less free of chains of command in ME2.

[Sebby]

Link

[Sebby]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

All this 'military mind' debate could be quashed if BioWare had simply released a Mass Effect based RTS.

Would we be able to have same-sex romance in a ME RTS?

[Xilizhra]

Seboist wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

All this 'military mind' debate could be quashed if BioWare had simply released a Mass Effect based RTS.

Would we be able to have same-sex romance in a ME RTS?

Believe it.

Also, given that canonically combat is generally decided by air superiority, I'm not really sure how well it would work.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Seboist wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

All this 'military mind' debate could be quashed if BioWare had simply released a Mass Effect based RTS.

Would we be able to have same-sex romance in a ME RTS?

No, but you'd ve able to romance a meek, shy, nerd-geeky hover tank.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 11 décembre 2011 - 04:40 .

[Sweawm]

Shepard did nothing in the seven months between Mass Effect 2: Arrival and Mass Effect 3? Maybe it has something to do with how the Alliance arrested him in that time and took away his ship. Sure, its real easy to work out a way to stop the Reapers when your stuck in a cell.

Of course, if Shepard is such a terrible leader, then you can have the Illusive Man. After reading Mass Effect: Evolution and the novel series, I fully believe that Cerberus is dedicated to stopping the Reapers. After all, the Illusive Man has been fighting the Reapers well before the trilogy ever began. Of all people, he understands the Reaper menace better than anyone. He knows that there will be sacrifices.
During the time between the First Contact Wars and the present time, the Illusive Man has been gathering an army to face the Reaper threat. He's gathered resources, troops and even built an entire navy.

Since the announcement that Cerberus will be an antagonist in the third game, it seems that all the canon now seems to point at the Illusive Man being corrupt and Cerberus is back stabbing, racist and evil.
Come on. Invade Omega? How does this help the Cerberus cause if not bog down your forces? No matter what ending you chose at the end of Mass Effect 2, Cerberus went through Omega Four and began analyzing the Collector Base (What's left of it if you played Paragon)

I hope Mass Effect 3 provides better reason for Cerberus to become your enemy than: "oh there shooting at us now, guess the Illusive Man must be indoctrinated or something."

[Dave of Canada]

 Congratulations, humanity. You've finally reached your apex, the shining beacon of hope that we'd achieve more has finally been extinguished and we've put aside all chances of improving ourselves.

... atleast that's what the Council would like you to think. The shining beacon of tommorow shall forever light on as long as we've got people like you fighting the Council, strong independent men and women who seek not only to better themselves but their species and the galaxy with their discoveries.

Let galactic history not be a sign of danger, let it be a sign of ignorance. We've seen what the Council has always wanted to do in cases like these, they wish to dimiss them and prevent them from occuring again--neglecting all progress we've made--for the sake of their own egos.

We're the fighters of progress, we're going to march out upon the galaxy and explore every shadow and fight everything that may lurk within. We must achieve the pinnacle which the Council denies us, we must break away and fight for our future.

[Sebby]

Dave of Canada wrote...

 Congratulations, humanity. You've finally reached your apex, the shining beacon of hope that we'd achieve more has finally been extinguished and we've put aside all chances of improving ourselves.

... atleast that's what the Council would like you to think. The shining beacon of tommorow shall forever light on as long as we've got people like you fighting the Council, strong independent men and women who seek not only to better themselves but their species and the galaxy with their discoveries.

Let galactic history not be a sign of danger, let it be a sign of ignorance. We've seen what the Council has always wanted to do in cases like these, they wish to dimiss them and prevent them from occuring again--neglecting all progress we've made--for the sake of their own egos.

We're the fighters of progress, we're going to march out upon the galaxy and explore every shadow and fight everything that may lurk within. We must achieve the pinnacle which the Council denies us, we must break away and fight for our future.

That brought a tear to my eye.

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

 Congratulations, humanity. You've finally reached your apex, the shining beacon of hope that we'd achieve more has finally been extinguished and we've put aside all chances of improving ourselves.

... atleast that's what the Council would like you to think. The shining beacon of tommorow shall forever light on as long as we've got people like you fighting the Council, strong independent men and women who seek not only to better themselves but their species and the galaxy with their discoveries.

Let galactic history not be a sign of danger, let it be a sign of ignorance. We've seen what the Council has always wanted to do in cases like these, they wish to dimiss them and prevent them from occuring again--neglecting all progress we've made--for the sake of their own egos.

We're the fighters of progress, we're going to march out upon the galaxy and explore every shadow and fight everything that may lurk within. We must achieve the pinnacle which the Council denies us, we must break away and fight for our future.

Erm, does this have context?

[feliciano2040]

..........................................

And they call Miri fans "weird".

[Sebby]

feliciano2040 wrote...

..........................................

And they call Miri fans "weird".

True, they don't recognize TIM as the superior character.