6970 réponses à ce sujet

[Sebby]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

^ Well, Mengsk did feed your girlfriend to a hoard of Zerg.

TIM, by contrast, personally sends you a genetically perfect girl to be your new squeeze.

For Sheploo yeah but he doesn't send himself for femshep.

[Blacklash93]

Frankly I think this is all about TIM losing to the Reapers. Nobobdy would be complaining if TIM outsmarted them, despite all he did (which was obviously due to indoctrination anyway).

Here's the thing. TIM has always taken insane risks and here he's just playing beyond his game, as usual. The Reapers are older, smarter, and more clever than TIM could ever be. He didn't stand a chance the moment he made his deal with them. Renegades are supposed to feel betrayed by TIM for being so foolish. Just because the Renegade poster-boy ends up getting screwed from his idiocy doesn't invalidate the Renegade style as a whole. If you're looking for the right type of Renegade then look at Prothy.

And you know what? That's completely in character. The devs have said from the very beginning that he's the best and worst of humanity in that he has all the traits that make for a very successful person, but he wastes them on extreme and unethical methods that hurt more people than they help, despite him trying to convince himself otherwise. How better to sum that up, combined with his unrealistic ambition, than him royally screwing up in a way that embodies everything he's been since the beginning?

Could they have done something with him that made for the more ambiguous morality we all enjoy? Sure, but that wasn't his point and would have required a completely different approach from the beginning.

TIM is a tale of man's folly, ambition, and politics and that's exactly what dictated his fate in ME3.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 14 janvier 2012 - 10:57 .

[Sebby]

Lizardviking wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Mengsk is a great man indeed. Him,Stalin(Red Alert),Kane, TIM and Hackett were my favorite bosses to work for in gaming.

Personally I have always been an allied/GDI fan, but those two were still awesome.
Joe Kucan should voice the next Bioware villain... :innocent:

Well, he can make the appropriate faces for the kinds of villains BW is into.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Lizardviking wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Mengsk is a great man indeed. Him,Stalin(Red Alert),Kane, TIM and Hackett were my favorite bosses to work for in gaming.

Personally I have always been an allied/GDI fan, but those two were still awesome.
Joe Kucan should voice the next Bioware villain... :innocent:

In the name of Kane...

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Seboist wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Mengsk is a great man indeed. Him,Stalin(Red Alert),Kane, TIM and Hackett were my favorite bosses to work for in gaming.

Personally I have always been an allied/GDI fan, but those two were still awesome.
Joe Kucan should voice the next Bioware villain... :innocent:

Well, he can make the appropriate faces for the kinds of villains BW is into.

Ha! Looking at it now. Bioware really need to drag him back, Joe deserves better than having his last game be C&C4.

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
In the name of Kane...

Kane Lives!

Modifié par Lizardviking, 14 janvier 2012 - 11:13 .

[John Renegade]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Frankly I think this is all about TIM losing to the Reapers. Nobobdy would be complaining if TIM outsmarted them, despite all he did (which was obviously due to indoctrination anyway).

Here's the thing. TIM has always taken insane risks and here he's just playing beyond his game, as usual. The Reapers are older, smarter, and more clever than TIM could ever be. He didn't stand a chance the moment he made his deal with them. Renegades are supposed to feel betrayed by TIM for being so foolish. Just because the Renegade poster-boy ends up getting screwed from his idiocy doesn't invalidate the Renegade style as a whole. If you're looking for the right type of Renegade then look at Prothy.

And you know what? That's completely in character. The devs have said from the very beginning that he's the best and worst of humanity in that he has all the traits that make for a very successful person, but he wastes them on extreme and unethical methods that hurt more people than they help, despite him trying to convince himself otherwise. How better to sum that up, combined with his unrealistic ambition, than him royally screwing up in a way that embodies everything he's been since the beginning?

Could they have done something with him that made for the more ambiguous morality we all enjoy? Sure, but that wasn't his point and would have required a completely different approach from the beginning.

TIM is a tale of man's folly, ambition, and politics and that's exactly what dictated his fate in ME3.

As I said, that outcome could've happen. My problem with it is not only that TIM ended up the way he did, but rather the percieved moral inequality that the devs are shoving down my throat.

Fine, TIM payed for his "arrogance." Do we see any paragon character paying for their naivity? (And no, that is not equal with dying bravely in the heat of battle or anything similar - I'm talking about actual "death by screwing up"). I don't remember any such character of TIM's level of importance or even of middle level of importance.

But you're right about the portrayal.  From what I've seen, Bioware were utterly incosistent in their portrayal of not only Cerberus, but the storyline at large.

Modifié par John Renegade, 14 janvier 2012 - 11:56 .

[BlueMagitek]

Unfortunately Blizzard made some questionable choices about where they wanted to go in SCII, so, not sure how that's going to end up.

Bioware had a similar problem with alignment back in Jade Empire; the way the two philosophies are presented is not usually well matched by your in game actions (there are exceptions, however).

[Blacklash93]

John Renegade wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

Frankly I think this is all about TIM losing to the Reapers. Nobobdy would be complaining if TIM outsmarted them, despite all he did (which was obviously due to indoctrination anyway).

Here's the thing. TIM has always taken insane risks and here he's just playing beyond his game, as usual. The Reapers are older, smarter, and more clever than TIM could ever be. He didn't stand a chance the moment he made his deal with them. Renegades are supposed to feel betrayed by TIM for being so foolish. Just because the Renegade poster-boy ends up getting screwed from his idiocy doesn't invalidate the Renegade style as a whole. If you're looking for the right type of Renegade then look at Prothy.

And you know what? That's completely in character. The devs have said from the very beginning that he's the best and worst of humanity in that he has all the traits that make for a very successful person, but he wastes them on extreme and unethical methods that hurt more people than they help, despite him trying to convince himself otherwise. How better to sum that up, combined with his unrealistic ambition, than him royally screwing up in a way that embodies everything he's been since the beginning?

Could they have done something with him that made for the more ambiguous morality we all enjoy? Sure, but that wasn't his point and would have required a completely different approach from the beginning.

TIM is a tale of man's folly, ambition, and politics and that's exactly what dictated his fate in ME3.

As I said, that outcome could've happen. My problem with it is not only that TIM ended up the way he did, but rather the percieved moral inequality that the devs are shoving down my throat.

Fine, TIM payed for his "arrogance." Do we see any paragon character paying for their naivity? (And no, that is not equal with dying bravely in the heat of battle or anything similar - I'm talking about actual "death by screwing up"). I don't remember any such character of TIM's level of importance or even of middle level of importance.

But you're right about the portrayal: Bioware were utterly incosistent in their portrayal of not only Cerberus, but the storyline at large.

I can see your point here. Although I'm sure it wouldn't sting as much if the ME team actually meant what they said when they say that "Paragon and Renegade" isn't largely "Nice Guy and Douche". Some of the writers' notes in the leaked script completely contradict what they've been saying in the marketing. They basically baited people who would find that type of edgy morality appealing and left them hanging.

I don't think the ME team has been inconsistent in the portrayal of the storyline or even Cerberus (don't even get me started on the plot-holes ME2 brought in, though), but rather just the dynamic of choice and morality. Like I said, there's a distinct difference in what they say they're doing and what they're actually doing.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 15 janvier 2012 - 12:08 .

[Sebby]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Unfortunately Blizzard made some questionable choices about where they wanted to go in SCII, so, not sure how that's going to end up.

Bioware had a similar problem with alignment back in Jade Empire; the way the two philosophies are presented is not usually well matched by your in game actions (there are exceptions, however).

Yeah, at one point Shep can say "I wish Cerberus recruited me earlier" along with doing a bunch of pro-Cerberus actions but then at the end when she saves the CB she throws a major PMS fit with TIM.

Modifié par Seboist, 15 janvier 2012 - 12:08 .

[BlueMagitek]

Seboist wrote...

Yeah, at one point Shep can say "I wish Cerberus recruited me earlier" along with doing a bunch of pro-Cerberus actions but then at the end when she saves the CB she throws a major PMS fit with TIM.

Well, don't you know, Shepard wanted to beat the Reapers without selling out the soul of the species. ~_^

That was pretty bad timing on TIM's part though; the report on the Suicide Mission (especially if the base was kept), could probably wait until after they at least do some internal repairs on the ship.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Could they have done something with him that made for the more ambiguous morality we all enjoy? Sure, but that wasn't his point and would have required a completely different approach from the beginning.

I would disagree with that part (also the rest of your post but I am too lazy to write a proper reponse right now). I don't see how they should change their approach from the beginning. All the problems with TIM right now lies in ME3.

[naledgeborn]

Closed Fist the way that was explained in game was almost impossible to play without spilling into Open Palm territory. End of the game Furious Ming has a halo even though he recruited Death's Hand and hardened the Princess :/.

[Sebby]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Yeah, at one point Shep can say "I wish Cerberus recruited me earlier" along with doing a bunch of pro-Cerberus actions but then at the end when she saves the CB she throws a major PMS fit with TIM.

Well, don't you know, Shepard wanted to beat the Reapers without selling out the soul of the species. ~_^

That was pretty bad timing on TIM's part though; the report on the Suicide Mission (especially if the base was kept), could probably wait until after they at least do some internal repairs on the ship.

I still blame femshep. She should have been asking for a tour of the Illusive bedroom as a reward for all those pro-Cerberus actions.

[BlueMagitek]

naledgeborn wrote...

Closed Fist the way that was explained in game was almost impossible to play without spilling into Open Palm territory. End of the game Furious Ming has a halo even though he recruited Death's Hand and hardened the Princess :/.

Well, they did put this huge Natural Order vs. Unnatural Order choice which basically would flip your alignment if you went against what you were doing right before endgame. ~_~

But it wasn't just Closed Fist that was the problem; Open Palm had its own issues.  Closed Fist options mostly veered towards the extreme end of it (which led to some rather evil actions) with fewer of the "Let them solve their problems on their own; help only if there is little/no chance of victory on their own".  Open Palm had a lot of the moderate "Help people who need it and restore order" options, but few of the extreme "Order must be maintained" options.

Seboist wrote...

I still blame femshep. She should have
been asking for a tour of the Illusive bedroom as a reward for all those
pro-Cerberus actions.

I'm fairly certain that a TIM-mance was never on the table.  So yeah. >_>"

And no, that is not what I meant by on the table, I'm preemptively stopping the innuendo.

[Blacklash93]

Lizardviking wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

Could they have done something with him that made for the more ambiguous morality we all enjoy? Sure, but that wasn't his point and would have required a completely different approach from the beginning.

I would disagree with that part (also the rest of your post but I am too lazy to write a proper reponse right now). I don't see how they should change their approach from the beginning. All the problems with TIM right now lies in ME3.

TIM is ruthless and ambitious. He would sell out or join anyone if he thought he would come out on top. He cares about humanity, but he's forgotten what "humanity" is. His "Cerberus is humanity." line spells that out quite clearly.

The writers probably could have gone a different direction, but in the end his story was never meant to be heroic, but tragic. He's renegade gone bad.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 15 janvier 2012 - 12:48 .

[The Sarendoctrinator]

I see a lot of you guys have already read the TIM spoilers. Can someone PM them to me? I've only been able to find a few pieces of information scattered around on the forums.

Seboist wrote...

Yeah, at one point Shep can say "I wish Cerberus recruited me earlier" along with doing a bunch of pro-Cerberus actions but then at the end when she saves the CB she throws a major PMS fit with TIM.

Many months ago, I tested out all of the dialogue options to find the most civil and willing-to-work-with-TIM conversation that was possible, and then posted it on the old TIM thread. I'd have to look it up again for the order, but it was definitely a mix of Paragon, Renegade, and Neutral responses.

[Xilizhra]

John Renegade wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, you can't say that this doesn't have precedent within the series: anyone everywhere who tries to control Reaper minds or anything about them other than a few parts is eventually indoctrinated.

You see Xil, this isn't about what could happen. This whole outrage is about the simple fact that all characters, all sentences and words spoken in-game were created by living, breathing people. Those people could have chosen to create an ambivalent, grey story, which would question people's morality by showing them many alternate points of view on issues like, for example, human dominance and other things Cerberus works on.
They could've made a story not unlike the one in Witcher 2, where all of player's big choices were in the end rewarded by satisfying consequences - for both sides.

Instead, devs have chosen to spit in faces of people having certain opinion and decided to uphold the "good" people's choices. They are essentially telling us, what is supposed to be good and wrong, instead of letting us to decide that ourselves. What they've decided to do with TIM and Cerberus is a perfect example of that, with pretty much every unlikable/Renegade character so far ending up the same way as well.

Honestly, I feel this way actually fits the Renegade ethos far better. The point of a Renegade is that they sacrifice ideals to get the job done; how is this worthy if you only sacrifice ideals you never agreed with in the first place?

[Sebby]

The upside to one of the Paragon options is that it causes TIM to gaze into my femshep's eyes and say "we need each other" which causes her to go weak in the knees. <3

[Xilizhra]

I reiterate my previous question.

[The Sarendoctrinator]

Seboist wrote...

The upside to one of the Paragon options is that it causes TIM to gaze into my femshep's eyes and say "we need each other" which causes her to go weak in the knees. <3

Yeah, I like that line too.

I found the order - Renegade, Paragon, Neutral. What Shepard says might not be completely in-character for everyone (depending on their Shepard's views), but I consider this to be the best route for keeping the relationship with TIM on good terms.

[Sebby]

There's a neutral response?