6970 réponses à ce sujet

[John Renegade]

Xilizhra wrote...

By the way, don't you see the irony of all this? People, who preach morals get better consequences and have a good feeling of being "pure" in their respective morals, while those who strive for better consequences are willing to (sometimes with heavy heart) sacrifice all the morality and good feelings of "purity", yet in the end they get nothing (and sometimes even worse).

Not quite true. It seems that many Renegade lack the morals that Renegade choices would be theoretically sacrificing, in many cases believing that killing certain people is fine and that humanity should rule over everyone. That second one is in fact the principle that Renegades have, that they're forced to sacrifice in the end. I think it's quite a clever turnabout and would necessitate an interesting amount of soul-searching from those who want to do things other than whine endlessly about being unable to bring about the Cerberus Empire.

Many Renegades lack feelings and morals, but not all. They may simply have that kind of morals where they are willing to sacrifice, but also can feel the loss. That loss may have many faces depending on what those Renegades in question value.

Which brings us to the core of the misjudgement you make. You see all Renegades as nihilists with no values. That is a mistake. Most of the Renegades here have values and we have goals which we want to achieve, for whatever reasons. That is the basis for what we decide to do. It's the very fact that we value our goals and values so much which makes it possible for us to change our means and principles of our work so flexibly. So in the end we will sacrifice only those principles which are no longer useful to uphold our values and goals, but we will never sacrifice those goals themselves.

As long as having particular principles will benefit our goals, we will have them. So you don't have to worry about us losing all of them. Also, for us principles are defined not as "a natural law to be obeyed even though it was really created by people", but rather as "the best way to achieve the fulfillment of our goals under certain circumstances."

Modifié par John Renegade, 15 janvier 2012 - 07:16 .

[Sebby]

Paragon choices turning out best in the next ME game is as assured as Steven Seagal being invincible in his next crappy straight to video flick or in other words it's nothing to brag about.

[naledgeborn]

Stories where the squeaky clean good guy can bake his cake and eat it too without any sacrifice is not a story worth telling or hearing because there's nothing to be learned from them.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 15 janvier 2012 - 08:29 .

[Toloveyou]

Well apparently Paragon=Success and Renegade=Failure, so of course its assured.

[Gunderic]

Seboist wrote...

Paragon choices turning out best in the next ME game is as assured as Steven Seagal being invincible in his next crappy straight to video flick or in other words it's nothing to brag about.

I'm really glad to see someone else disliking Steven Seagal. I'm forced to see him on TV all too often. Last time I saw one of his movies I actually made a remark about his immunity to damage, in the final confrontation of his movie no less.

That's not what makes him crappy, though it adds to the humour. But in Shepard's case, yeah it would be pretty lame to see Paragon Shepard have the better ending but that's very much expected seeing as Renegade Shepard's deeds in the previous games are to the effect of someone you've never met kicking you in the nuts while you're going out for a walk.

[Gunderic]

naledgeborn wrote...

Stories where the squeaky clean good guy can bake his cake and eat it too without any sacrifice is not a story worth telling or hearing because there's nothing to be learned from them.

I doubt it's going to be without sacrifice. If you're Paragon it's probably going to be something like "I have to do this" and if you're Renegade "I'm gonna sacrifice a few extra guys just to be sure, trololo."

[naledgeborn]

The only person trolololing is you.

[Sebby]

naledgeborn wrote...

Stories where the squeaky clean good guy can bake his cake and eat it too without any sacrifice is not a story worth telling or hearing because there's nothing to be learned from them.

Not quite, we learned that we should seek other developers with superior writers.

[Xilizhra]

Which brings us to the core of the misjudgement you make. You see all Renegades as nihilists with no values. That is a mistake. Most of the Renegades here have values and we have goals which we want to achieve, for whatever reasons. That is the basis for what we decide to do. It's the very fact that we value our goals and values so much which makes it possible for us to change our means and principles of our work so flexibly. So in the end we will sacrifice only those principles which are no longer useful to uphold our values and goals, but we will never sacrifice those goals themselves.

Aha, but you must do that last part. The Cerberus Empire must never be completed if the galaxy is to be saved.

In any case, I, as a Paragon, am the exact same way. I don't do what I do because of the intrinsic value of certain actions, but because I believe it's the best way to bring about the best possible outcome.

Stories where the squeaky clean good guy can bake his cake and eat it too without any sacrifice is not a story worth telling or hearing because there's nothing to be learned from them.

Legions of slaughtered vaguely criminal people, indoctrinees, and the entire Bahak system say "hi."

Modifié par Xilizhra, 15 janvier 2012 - 10:51 .

[The Sarendoctrinator]

I think for some of these choices, a "good" ending depends on what you or your Shepard wants. The genophage decision, for example. Some Shepards want it cured, but others think it would be too big of a risk in the long run. It's the same thing for the rachni queen. Some Shepards choose to save her, and others don't want their actions to risk starting another war after the Reapers are dealt with. Even if both the rachni and the krogan help out during the Reaper war, who knows what they'll do after it's over? I have multiple playthroughs planned for both endings and a lot of alternates in between, and my Shepards who went the Renegade route would not see this as missing out on something.

I consider them all "different" endings and results, and in my case, it makes for a lot of replay value. It would be nice if there were some decisions that worked out best for both sides, but really, I just want to be able to play the game again and again in a variety of ways, and I've got that. This is the reason I decided to buy Mass Effect in the first place - to enjoy the journey, not just the consequences.

I can see why people are disappointed about TIM and Cerberus' role in ME3 though. I much preferred working with them than the Council/Alliance. TIM is one of my favorite characters, and I'm not happy about working with the groups who betrayed my Shepards in ME2, but there are so many things I'll like about ME3 that it won't bother me too much. I'll just focus on (what I think are) the majority of positives, and not the small group of negatives.

[saturos2]

Xilizhra wrote...

Rojahar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The point of a Renegade is that they sacrifice ideals to get the job
done; how is this worthy if you only sacrifice ideals you never agreed
with in the first place?

Renegade = Sacrifice potential allies, morality, and all sorts of things to "get the job done" except when it doesn't work out.

Paragon = Things always work out and you always succeed, with everyone loving you and the best possible consequences result from your actions. All the while you don't sacrifice anything and gain more any other alternative.

Wow, what compelling choice.

You aren't "sacrificing to win" as Renegade, because you sacrifice nothing as Paragon and win at least as well as, if not better than, Renegade. Why sacrifice and barely scrape by or just half-win, when you can not-sacrifice and get the ideal dream victory where not only did you win, but everyone wants to lick your amazing butthole because you're so goshdarn perfect and amazing and always right.

The only "choice" in these games is whether you want to play a "hero" that's resented or looked up to, but there's no tangible consequences and the choices are as far as can be from compelling. Nothing to make you ponder the consequences or question if you might want to stray from the path you've chosen.

There are cartoons with more depth.

If you're not playing Paragon, don't worry about what happens in Paragon. Worry about your own universe and don't try to warp universes you're not playing in.

im mostly paragon but i gotta say the devs f***ed over renagades. the world isn't black and white like the writers want it to be, its grey, and what is truly moral can only be defined by an indeiviual.

[saturos2]

Rojahar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The point of a Renegade is that they sacrifice ideals to get the job
done; how is this worthy if you only sacrifice ideals you never agreed
with in the first place?

Renegade = Sacrifice potential allies, morality, and all sorts of things to "get the job done" except when it doesn't work out.

Paragon = Things always work out and you always succeed, with everyone loving you and the best possible consequences result from your actions. All the while you don't sacrifice anything and gain more any other alternative.

Wow, what compelling choice.

You aren't "sacrificing to win" as Renegade, because you sacrifice nothing as Paragon and win at least as well as, if not better than, Renegade. Why sacrifice and barely scrape by or just half-win, when you can not-sacrifice and get the ideal dream victory where not only did you win, but everyone wants to lick your amazing butthole because you're so goshdarn perfect and amazing and always right.

The only "choice" in these games is whether you want to play a "hero" that's resented or looked up to, but there's no tangible consequences and the choices are as far as can be from compelling. Nothing to make you ponder the consequences or question if you might want to stray from the path you've chosen.

There are cartoons with more depth.

one example of a cartoon/anime with more depth than mass effect is Ful Metal Alchemist.

[BlueMagitek]

I think an unfortunate piece of the game is that TIM is your only close Renegade "ally" outside of your party (who you can't mercilessly destroy, poor Mordin). Hackett exists, true, but he doesn't have nearly as much screentime or connection as Anderson (who would be your Paragon mentor or ally). And while Anderson is probably slated for death, they went and made your Renegade ally an enemy (way sooner than anyone expected).

I suppose Aria also exists, but I don't see how anyone can claim familiarity with her unless they've delved into fanfic territory. ~_~

[The Sarendoctrinator]

BlueMagitek wrote...

I suppose Aria also exists, but I don't see how anyone can claim familiarity with her unless they've delved into fanfic territory. ~_~

Do you mean that Shepard has no familiarity with Aria, or that the player doesn't?

If you mean Shepard, I would probably agree. The two of them didn't get to know each other too well, although Aria does help Shepard out with information and Shepard has the option of helping her out later on with a side mission. But the player can get to know Aria through Retribution, Invasion, and a shorter online comic that I don't remember the name of right now.

I would still consider her a Renegade ally of Shepard's, if only because they share a common enemy.

[Sebby]

Aria in ME2 was no more a prominent character than Aethyta or Bailey. She was very underused for a game that took place primarily in the Terminus. I would have loved to see her interact with the squadmates more.

The lack of a pro-Terminus alien path for Renegade is as disappointing as the lack of a Cerberus path I'd say.

[Sebby]

saturos2 wrote...

Rojahar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The point of a Renegade is that they sacrifice ideals to get the job
done; how is this worthy if you only sacrifice ideals you never agreed
with in the first place?

Renegade = Sacrifice potential allies, morality, and all sorts of things to "get the job done" except when it doesn't work out.

Paragon = Things always work out and you always succeed, with everyone loving you and the best possible consequences result from your actions. All the while you don't sacrifice anything and gain more any other alternative.

Wow, what compelling choice.

You aren't "sacrificing to win" as Renegade, because you sacrifice nothing as Paragon and win at least as well as, if not better than, Renegade. Why sacrifice and barely scrape by or just half-win, when you can not-sacrifice and get the ideal dream victory where not only did you win, but everyone wants to lick your amazing butthole because you're so goshdarn perfect and amazing and always right.

The only "choice" in these games is whether you want to play a "hero" that's resented or looked up to, but there's no tangible consequences and the choices are as far as can be from compelling. Nothing to make you ponder the consequences or question if you might want to stray from the path you've chosen.

There are cartoons with more depth.

one example of a cartoon/anime with more depth than mass effect is Ful Metal Alchemist.

What's infuriating is that the paragon choices end up getting all the perks of the renegade ones in the interlude like the human-turian arms race.

[naledgeborn]

Xilizhra wrote...

Legions of slaughtered vaguely criminal people, indoctrinees, and the entire Bahak system say "hi."

Every time you post something on the internet an astrophysicist, a philospher, and a president somewhere all simultaneously die from brain hemmorhages.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Seboist wrote...

Aria in ME2 was no more a prominent character than Aethyta or Bailey. She was very underused for a game that took place primarily in the Terminus. I would have loved to see her interact with the squadmates more.

The lack of a pro-Terminus alien path for Renegade is as disappointing as the lack of a Cerberus path I'd say.

Ah, good to see I'm not the only that thought this.

Of course, this path would've needed a filthy xeno romance in which you play Aria like a violin and bring her to her coup de giotte, not quite unlike the TIM romance you and several others have been lusting after.

In retrospect, the lack of those in ME2 really made no sense: on one hand you have Martin ****ing Sheen voicing what is said to be a womaniser, and on the other you have Carrie-Anne "Trinity" Moss voicing a member of this supposedly highly sexual alien race, yet there is distinct lack of avances between them and Shepard.

Then again, there are also moments where I suspect what little roles they have are only there for Bioware to say "We have Celebrity X in our game, so please buy it", because giving them more prominent roles would cost too much.

Oh well...

Better luck next time.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 16 janvier 2012 - 12:52 .

[Sebby]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Aria in ME2 was no more a prominent character than Aethyta or Bailey. She was very underused for a game that took place primarily in the Terminus. I would have loved to see her interact with the squadmates more.

The lack of a pro-Terminus alien path for Renegade is as disappointing as the lack of a Cerberus path I'd say.

Ah, good to see I'm not the only that thought this.

Of course, this path would've needed a filthy xeno romance in which you play Aria like a violin and bring her to her coup de giotte, not quite unlike the TIM romance you and several others have been lusting after.

In retrospect, the lack of those in ME2 really made no sense: on one hand you have Martin ****ing Sheen voicing what is said to be a womaniser, and on the other you have Carrie-Anne "Trinity" Moss voicing a member of this supposedly highly sexual alien race, yet there is distinct lack of avances between them and Shepard.

Then again, there are also moments where I suspect what little roles they have are only there for Bioware to say "We have Celebrity X in our game, so please buy it", because giving them more prominent roles would cost too much.

Oh well...

Better luck next time.

Yeah, Aria flat out says she used her unique "talents" in her scheme to overthrow Patriarch.  Her lack of attempting to win over someone of Shepard's caliber to her organization and her small role are quite puzzling.

The same with TIM, here you have this character who's established as this big womanizer and master manipulator who's in essense femshep's sugar daddy in ME2 but he doesn't try lay down some smooth moves to "seduce" her over to his side? Hell, he doesn't even need to actually be interested in her in order to do that but instead we have femshep being able to "romance" a bird-lizard with a literal boner and a frog man with lung problems, neither one of these having **** all to do with the story.

Come to think of it a similar TIMxfemshep dynamic could have happened between Miranda and Sheploo. Here you have this supposed "Cerberus loyalist" and "femme fatale" who you'd think would try to win him over but.... nope, she instead ends up becoming this emotionally disturbed woman with daddy issues and comes off as some kind of fawning groupie instead of an actual loyalist of Cerberus.

Bioware just sucks hard at creating character relationships of any kind.

[Xilizhra]

Every time you post something on the internet an astrophysicist, a philospher, and a president somewhere all simultaneously die from brain hemmorhages.

There's something called "content" that many people who disagree with me have used in their arguments. Try it sometime.

The same with TIM, here you have this character who's established as this big womanizer and master manipulator who's in essense femshep's sugar daddy in ME2 but he doesn't try lay down some smooth moves to "seduce" her over to his side? Hell, he doesn't even need to actually be interested in her in order to do that but instead we have femshep being able to "romance" a bird-lizard with a literal boner and a frog man with lung problems, neither one of these having **** all to do with the story.

Um, no. That would be stupid, for several reasons:
1. If Shepard fakes being seduced when she actually still hates TIM, if she ever showed up in person with TIM, she could kill him in a heartbeat.
2. If Shepard's sexual orientation has been established as being lesbian, which I imagine is a relatively simple thing to figure out if you have enough of her history (and if TIM didn't splurge on information-gathering on Shepard's past, he's an idiot), it would wind up looking even dumber.
3. There's no way of confirming 2 in-game, thus there's no safe way for the programmers to implement it at all.
4. Even subtracting all this, it's likely that relatively few women are immediately going to be receptive to sexual advances from their employer.
5. TIM getting his rocks off isn't even close to worth the risk, and any female Shepard who did want this in the first place will probably be on his side in the first place, so he doesn't really need to do that to actually get what he wants.
6. I still have Liara, who's quite important to the plot.

Bioware just sucks hard at creating character relationships of any kind.

Maybe they suck at sucking your e-peen, but I'd call that a plus, personally.

[BlueMagitek]

Seboist wrote...

Bioware just sucks hard at creating character relationships of any kind.

I have to disagree; they do a good job at character relationships, it's just in ME 2 they didn't really follow through with them.  You didn't need to take Garrus with you, why is he so familiar with you?  Wrex is at least explainable; if he showed up, you either decided not to kill him, or you did his sidequest.  

Also, Kang the Mad and Mordin are totally bros.

[Armass81]

damn all this negative energy...

If you hate how the game turned up, why are you still here? Youre not going to buy it after all....are you?

Modifié par Armass81, 16 janvier 2012 - 04:51 .

[GodWood]

Armass81 wrote...
damn all this negative energy...

If you hate how the game turned up, why are you still here?

To complain, to discuss, to argue...

This is what you do on forums is it not? 

Youre not going to buy it after all....are you

I intend to pick it up pre-owned.


Eventually.

[BlueMagitek]

Negative energy is a lot better than picture spam. ~_~

And I'm quite the positive one myself. ~_^

[naledgeborn]

Xilizhra wrote...

There's something called "content" that many people who disagree with me have used in their arguments. Try it sometime.

Why should I inject "content"? Debating with you is an exercise in futility, because as I said yesterday your arguments are all illogical as **** and you stand by them in a erroneous air of smug infallibility. People actually get dumber when they read what you type. So I'm done. I'll just assume what you type is **** and insult the context. At least this way I can leave our exchange with my intelligence relatively intact.